Troy debates sending back $8.5 million in U.S. aid for transit center

[Detroitnerd]

Sure am glad they used that stimulus money to wide Hall Road and rebuild a dozen bridges over it. I mean, LOOK AT ALL THE DEVELOPMENT THAT SPURRED.

[bailey]

After looking online for, like, 10 minutes, it seems Janice Daniels is a failed realtor. Most interesting is the charge that she can't afford to live in Troy? Surely that's impossible, right? You must have a Troy address to be mayor of Troy, right? And she was out in front in the effort to close Troy's libraries, although she now denies it. Sounds like a born politician.

"I will not forget my principles. That's what you elected me to do…I will not back down," Daniels told the crowd. "I'm thrilled; I'm honored; I'm excited and I'm ready. Let's go Troy!"

Is 52 percent of the vote a mandate?

I feel sorry for my friends and family in Troy with this sort of nut for their mayor...

Yes...if you're a republican. If you're a democrat, it means that "half" the electorate didn't vote for you and you need to listen to their concerns. At least that is how the media and various talking heads seem to frame the issue.

[Mikeg]

"As for the stimulative effect of this spending, the President noted in Oct. 2010 that "there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and again in June of 2011 that “Shovel-ready was not as … uh .. shovel-ready as we expected.”

Both you and the President are wrong about that. I've seen a number of projects completed here in Novi and elsewhere with stimulus money. Don't let the facts get in the way of the talking points you're busy parroting.

It may be a fact that those were local projects funded with ARRA money, but where are your facts to support how much of a stimulus they provided to the local economy? How many jobs did they create? How long did those jobs last? By how much did they reduce the unemployment rate? Or were those the kind of jobs that fall instead under the "saved" talking point, er.... category?

[ghettopalmetto]

There's no sound economic, transit, or planning rationale to the proposed intermodal center. From Day 1, the project was basically an allocation looking for a purpose.

An intermodal center in an city with no intermodal demand, no walkability, and no traffic problem, and all shoehorned behind a strip mall.

You can't have intermodal demand when you only have one mode.

And you can't have walkability if you only build your transportation network for cars.

Some other city not-in-Michigan will be more than happy to invest this money in their infrastructure so they can grow their economy.

[Novine]

"It may be a fact that those were local projects funded with ARRA money, but where are your facts to support how much of a stimulus they provided to the local economy? How many jobs did they create? How long did those jobs last? By how much did they reduce the unemployment rate? Or were those the kind of jobs that fall instead under the "saved" talking point, er.... category?"

There's stats on the Feds web site. They don't break down the employment effect by project but I know that those dollars went to actual work that employed actual people and had a stimulative effect on the economy. Talk to people in the construction industry and find out how much private sector construction projects have been undertaken over the past several years. Without government spending on infrastructure projects, there's a lot of people in the construction industry and related industries that would have been unemployed during the past couple of years.

[canuck]

No, that's not true.

The owner of the shopping center [[and adjacent condos) is Grand Sakwa. They are one of the biggest developers in Michigan and have been pretty vocal in fighting this project.

They sued Troy, and want the project to be cancelled/relocated, or, as an alternative, they want to be compensated for their perceived economic losses.

I don't know what you mean by "extended their due date". Maybe you're referring to the site owner? The intermodal center wouldn't be on Grand Sakwa land. It would be built on an adjacent industrial site, but access would be through Grand Sakwa property.

Yes well according to the pdf, land was bought from Grand Sakwa on judicial consent with a revert clause pending completion of the project within the allotted ten years. So there was a fair bit of money in it for these guys and now they are bound to make more if the project is revived.

But the funny thing is anywhere else in the two connected hemispheres of this planet, cities and businesses would jump at the opportunity to have an intermodal center with real live people coming out of it to circulate on their unholy grounds.

Funny too, how Novine characterizes the snootiness about bus and even train travel in the city, when you think that executives take the train from the Connecticut suburbs into NYC daily for a total of two and three hour rides. You can be sitting next to filthy rich or filthy poor folks on Paris, London or Tokyo transit and the democratic platforms create the texture and color of civilization.
Suburban life when it is cut off from a potent center is just a clueless maze of blandness. The only thing that saves its ass is connectedness to a downtown. I too, like Lowell believe a transit authority and probably a metropolitan municipal authority with sufficient leverage could oversee planning and give a true impulse to the region. What kind of leverage do you think a city with a cosmopolitan population of 4, 5 million could get when it comes to funding from state and federal sources or even in borrowing terms? The lack of will to bring the metro to merge by politicians of all stripes is mindboggling.

[DetroitPlanner]

No, that's not true.

The owner of the shopping center [[and adjacent condos) is Grand Sakwa. They are one of the biggest developers in Michigan and have been pretty vocal in fighting this project.

They sued Troy, and want the project to be cancelled/relocated, or, as an alternative, they want to be compensated for their perceived economic losses.

I don't know what you mean by "extended their due date". Maybe you're referring to the site owner? The intermodal center wouldn't be on Grand Sakwa land. It would be built on an adjacent industrial site, but access would be through Grand Sakwa property.

"While Birmingham has had a train station for over a century, the idea for a multi-functional transit center first came about in 1999, when Grand/Sakwa attempted to buy the former Ford New Holland Tractor site in Troy. They filed a lawsuit against Troy to get the zoning the firm wanted for the site. After lengthy mediation, all parties agreed to a consent judgment that would allow for the development Grand Sakwa wanted, with the stipulation that the city of Troy receive a 4-acre parcel of the land along the railroad tracks at the Troy-Birmingham border for use as a transit center. In the agreement, there was a mandatory proviso that construction begin by June 2010.

Grand/Sakwa subsequently developed the property located near Maple and Coolidge roads in Troy as Midtown Development and Midtown Square, which features a Kroger, Home Depot, Target and other stores.

"We have an act of Congress, signed on December 18, 2009 by the President, and if that isn't proof, I do not know what is," said Ecker. "We have a signed agreement for a LED grant for $250,000. Birmingham and Troy have set aside $1.6 million combined. And we have received $8.4 million of stimulus money, which was announced on January 28, 2010.

"It's going through the Federal Railroad Administration [[FRA) right now," she continued. "We submitted environmental assessments, statement of work, and a project management plan. It's all in the FRA's hands now, and they've been inundated with paperwork with grant-approved projects from around the country."

http://www.downtownpublications.com/...=205858.112113

[Russix]

After looking online for, like, 10 minutes, it seems Janice Daniels is a failed realtor. Most interesting is the charge that she can't afford to live in Troy? Surely that's impossible, right? You must have a Troy address to be mayor of Troy, right? And she was out in front in the effort to close Troy's libraries, although she now denies it. Sounds like a born politician.

"I will not forget my principles. That's what you elected me to do…I will not back down," Daniels told the crowd. "I'm thrilled; I'm honored; I'm excited and I'm ready. Let's go Troy!"

Is 52 percent of the vote a mandate?

I feel sorry for my friends and family in Troy with this sort of nut for their mayor...

The "Let's go Troy!" had a real Glenn Moon echo to it.

Did the Rosa Parks TC make DDOT better and more efficient? Don't get me wrong, it looks really nice. But should cities that are struggling be putting up nice things or maintaining basic services? Besides look what you can get with that money:

$7.9 million to make West Detroit rail improvements, such as installing centralized traffic control signals, constructing 1.34 miles of new connecting track on existing and previously abandoned railroad property; replacing a bridge over Junction Avenue; relocating about 0.86 track miles of existing Conrail Shared Assets Operations tracks; and constructing three new crossovers and a service drive.

[lilpup]

That situation recently reversed, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the reason it reversed was because of the horrible Michigan economy.

Source? Much of the aid coming to Michigan has been in the form of loans to be repaid.

[ghettopalmetto]

The "Let's go Troy!" had a real Glenn Moon echo to it.

Did the Rosa Parks TC make DDOT better and more efficient? Don't get me wrong, it looks really nice. But should cities that are struggling be putting up nice things or maintaining basic services? Besides look what you can get with that money:

So you don't think transportation is a basic service​???

[Hamtragedy]

Canuck Said:

"But the funny thing is anywhere else in the two connected hemispheres of this planet, cities and businesses would jump at the opportunity to have an intermodal center with real live people coming out of it to circulate on their unholy grounds.

Funny too, how Novine characterizes the snootiness about bus and even train travel in the city, when you think that executives take the train from the Connecticut suburbs into NYC daily for a total of two and three hour rides. You can be sitting next to filthy rich or filthy poor folks on Paris, London or Tokyo transit and the democratic platforms create the texture and color of civilization.
Suburban life when it is cut off from a potent center is just a clueless maze of blandness. The only thing that saves its ass is connectedness to a downtown. I too, like Lowell believe a transit authority and probably a metropolitan municipal authority with sufficient leverage could oversee planning and give a true impulse to the region. What kind of leverage do you think a city with a cosmopolitan population of 4, 5 million could get when it comes to funding from state and federal sources or even in borrowing terms? The lack of will to bring the metro to merge by politicians of all stripes is mindboggling. "

THIS IS WHY METROPOLITAN DETROIT SUCKS

You mean to tell me the Midtown Square merchants don't want new customers, especially if they don't have cars?

You mean to tell me that people won't walk 5 minutes across a parking lot to get from mass-transit to a store entrance?

You mean to tell me the residents of that saccharine condo-development would never leave their boring saccharine lives and hop on a train to go, hell, somewhere else for an evening?

You mean to tell me that some exec getting off his private jet from out of town wouldn't mind ditching the rent-a-car for a day and hopping on a train if it was convenient? And he would have to walk, gasp, 10 minutes?

You mean to tell me that these snooty Birminghamites and Saccharine Troy subjects would actually like to have their hired help show up at a given time every day because a train, that ran on a real schedule, would actually bring said hired help within walking distance of their homes, without the current headaches of having to walk, miles at a time, waiting for a fractured bus system that may or may not pick them up and actually take them to their house-cleaning, old lady cooking, snooty bus boy jobs?

All because some sheltered, short-sighted, narrow-minded, non-passport carrying populace is so repugnantly ignorant and stuck in its' ways to see any future that doesn't benefit anything beyond only its' own selfish values and fears????.

[DetroitPlanner]

You mean to tell me the Midtown Square merchants don't want new customers, especially if they don't have cars?

You mean to tell me that people won't walk 5 minutes across a parking lot to get from mass-transit to a store entrance?

No one better pull that "It will bring crime stuff". Will Criminals rob somewhere then wait for a train or a bus? I don't think so. Maybe it would be better to get rid of cars?

[Bham1982]

"While Birmingham has had a train station for over a century, the idea for a multi-functional transit center first came about in 1999, when Grand/Sakwa attempted to buy the former Ford New Holland Tractor site in Troy. They filed a lawsuit against Troy to get the zoning the firm wanted for the site. After lengthy mediation, all parties agreed to a consent judgment that would allow for the development Grand Sakwa wanted, with the stipulation that the city of Troy receive a 4-acre parcel of the land along the railroad tracks at the Troy-Birmingham border for use as a transit center. In the agreement, there was a mandatory proviso that construction begin by June 2010.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Grand Sakwa never wanted the transit center. They have been in litigation for years. It totally messes with their big box stores and the adjacent condos, and they're probably correct that it would hurt sales [[thus affecting Troy's tax revenues).

[cramerro]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Grand Sakwa never wanted the transit center. They have been in litigation for years. It totally messes with their big box stores and the adjacent condos, and they're probably correct that it would hurt sales [[thus affecting Troy's tax revenues).

I understand [[what I think is) the reason why Grand Sakwa doesn't want this to go through: they get the 4 acres back scott-free. It doesn't "totally mess" with thier big box any more than it did when they laid out the center. How would it hurt sales? The buildings are built for their center - the extra land wouldn't affect those. If anything I'd think that eventually [[maybe longer than the 10-15 years tht big boxes usually last before the HQ wants a new building) the transit center would be an asset that would increase the value of the development, linked to high-speed rail corridor and bus network.

[Bham1982]

You mean to tell me the Midtown Square merchants don't want new customers, especially if they don't have cars?

Why would Midtown Square get new customers?

The bus already stops right in front on Midtown Square. This would put the bus in the back alley, behind Midtown Square.

They would lose customers, especially during construction. Probably 98% of customers and employees come by car.

You mean to tell me the residents of that saccharine condo-development would never leave their boring saccharine lives and hop on a train to go, hell, somewhere else for an evening?

If these allegedly "boring saccharine" people want to ride a 20 mph, $12 Amtrak to Detroit 3 times a day, they can already do so. There's already an Amtrak station across the street.

You mean to tell me that some exec getting off his private jet from out of town wouldn't mind ditching the rent-a-car for a day and hopping on a train if it was convenient? And he would have to walk, gasp, 10 minutes?

The only airport for "private jets" in Oakland County is 20 miles away. There are no plans for upgrading the rail line or rail service on this stretch as part of the intermodal center proposal. It has absolutely nothing to do with faster or more frequent rail service.

You mean to tell me that these snooty Birminghamites and Saccharine Troy subjects would actually like to have their hired help show up at a given time every day because a train, that ran on a real schedule, would actually bring said hired help within walking distance of their homes,

The portion of Birmingham closest to the proposed intermodal center is the cheapest, most modest part of town. There is no "hired help". These are tiny bungalows, no different than what you see in Allen Park, Harper Woods or wherever.

[JBMcB]

So you don't think transportation is a basic service​???

Sure it is. But what good is a new bus terminal if there is no money to keep the buses operating? You can't go laying out capital improvements if your existing infrastructure is falling apart.

Maintaining infrastructure isn't politically fashionable, of course. It's hard for a mayor to run on the platform that he kept city services operating well.

[coracle]

I wasn't keen on the proposed location of the "free" Transit Center in the first place Hamtragedy but having read your rant outlining what you think of us and what you want to be told, I'm now dead against it. We don't need you or your ilk to frequent our suburb to feed your obvious low opinion of us. Keep to your own enlightened space; have the Transit Center wherever you are, and feed it with a Transit loop that starts and stops there.

[Novine]

"Grand Sakwa never wanted the transit center. They have been in litigation for years. It totally messes with their big box stores and the adjacent condos, and they're probably correct that it would hurt sales [[thus affecting Troy's tax revenues)."

The litigation had nothing to do with the transit center. They wanted Troy to change the zoning to allow them to build their retail/residential center. Troy didn't want to allow that since it was zoned industrial. The settlement included the space for the transit center. Whether GS wanted it or not, it wasn't the cause of the litigation.

"We don't need you or your ilk to frequent our suburb to feed your obvious low opinion of us."

That's an intelligent response. You did a better job of showing that the people of Troy are a bunch of rubes than Hamtragedy could have done.

[Lowell]

Canuck writes...

Funny too, how Novine characterizes the snootiness about bus and even train travel in the city, when you think that executives take the train from the Connecticut suburbs into NYC daily for a total of two and three hour rides. You can be sitting next to filthy rich or filthy poor folks on Paris, London or Tokyo transit and the democratic platforms create the texture and color of civilization.

As one of the most class and racially separated metros in the Americas, this goes to show how lack of effective mass transit not only does damage to Metro Detroit business and the flow of labor, but also damages our social fabric by furthering the separation.

Russix writes...

Did the Rosa Parks TC make DDOT better and more efficient? Don't get me wrong, it looks really nice. But should cities that are struggling be putting up nice things or maintaining basic services?

I see it from our office every day. It is always busy and it offers an efficient and, dare I say, dignified hub with a People Mover stop adjacent. As an added benefit it has freed up Capitol Park, which was the de facto unsheltered and chaotic hub prior to Rosa Parks, offering excellent opportunities for residential and business redevelopment of that attractive space.

[Bham1982]

The litigation had nothing to do with the transit center. They wanted Troy to change the zoning to allow them to build their retail/residential center. Troy didn't want to allow that since it was zoned industrial. The settlement included the space for the transit center. Whether GS wanted it or not, it wasn't the cause of the litigation.

No, this isn't true. Sakwa has been fighting this for years.

There are multiple pieces of litigation under discussion, and you're discussing a different piece of litigation, back before Midtown Square was built.

Yes, way back in '99, Sakwa didn't sue to prevent the intermodal center. There was no proposed intermodal center. They were trying to get a zoning change to build a shopping center and condos on polluted land, and in order to get the zoning change, they had to agree to allow access for a possible future Amtrak station.

Since then, however, they have been fighting the intermodal center, both through the courts and through the court of public opinion.

[antongast]

Did the Rosa Parks TC make DDOT better and more efficient? Don't get me wrong, it looks really nice. But should cities that are struggling be putting up nice things or maintaining basic services?

DDOT applied for some funding to build a transit center, and got it. Unfortunately, the feds don't give out grants to supplement operating revenue, because they assume [[incorrectly, in our case) that the political will exists at the local level to set up adequate funding streams for transit.

[j to the jeremy]

That being said, I like the RPTC a lot and enjoy its aesthetic flavor downtown. I just wish they'd get a Tim Hortons or something inside it, and have the ticket window staffed more often.

[Bigmonkey]

Can't stand the Tea Party, but I have no problem with this.

There's no sound economic, transit, or planning rationale to the proposed intermodal center. From Day 1, the project was basically an allocation looking for a purpose.

An intermodal center in an city with no intermodal demand, no walkability, and no traffic problem, and all shoehorned behind a strip mall.

Obviously I would prefer the money stay in the region for a more worthwhile project. I'd love to see it used for D-DOT service improvements, or much-needed expansion of I-75 or I-94. If that isn't possible, might as well do some good somewhere else.

Building more roads does not help a regional trainsit system that works is needed

[j to the jeremy]

we should just allocate all transit and road money for a few years into shoring up DDOT, SMART, creating an RTA, and ensuring the light rail is built.

[bailey]

So...just wondering if there is a consensus on this project [[not transit investment overall) did this teahadist wackjob make the right decision, just for the wrong reason?