Saturday Night Shooting near Royal Oak YMCA

[Meddle]

Wait, ..... Royal Oak has 'wave upon wave of cruisers' ?

I don't get *why* it's common sense. I mean, not making noise outside late at night if nobody else is, okay, that's common courtesy, I guess, but the other stuff? Who the hell cares if somebody down the street wants to grill on their porch? They paid for the house, didn't they? Or do property rights only apply to People Exactly Like Us?

It is not common sense, nor civilized to grille on one's front porch. You do that in the back yard whether you paid for the house or not or what you look like or where you came from.

Hell, I live out in the country on nearly 10 acres with no neighbors in sight and I don't grill on the front porch.

[antongast]

It is not common sense, nor civilized to grille on one's front porch. You do that in the back yard whether you paid for the house or not or what you look like or where you came from.

Okay, that's your personal opinion, but why is everyone else required to share it? Doesn't this fall under Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?

[corktownyuppie]

I don't get *why* it's common sense. I mean, not making noise outside late at night if nobody else is, okay, that's common courtesy, I guess, but the other stuff? Who the hell cares if somebody down the street wants to grill on their porch? They paid for the house, didn't they? Or do property rights only apply to People Exactly Like Us?

Look, what we have here is very common and not just an issue of "Detroiters encroaching into the suburbs". It's the cultural clash that naturally occurs when peoples of different backgrounds, socio-economic roots, or any other demographic including age, religion, etc. come into contact with each other.

I experienced this a lot growing up because my parents were foreign, and I was a 1st gen American. They were fresh off the boat. And my family would regulary do things that were "weird" or "strange" by the social norms of my neighborhood on Detroit's eastside...then they eventually assimilated. That was 30+ years ago, and now when I tell my friends the stories of what my parents were like growing up they laugh at the incredulity of the stories.

So, yes, it doesn't surprise me as culture shock if you're moving from the Denby district to the posh lawns of Troy. No more than if you're a 3-generation kid from the Bronx moving into Sweet Home Alabama. Or if you're the old professor moving into the neighborhood of 19-year-old college students.

Of course, there's resentment on both sides, but like it or not, the people moving in will likely be the ones feeling the most pressure to change. And they will, if they want to stay in the neighborhood.

[English]

I grilled on my front porch for 6 long years in Ann Arbor. That is because I lived in a rowhouse with no back porch, let alone a backyard. So, no, it wasn't because I was from Detroit. All my neighbors did so.

The main issue is that what "middle class white suburban America" sees as a universal norm are actually specific cultural practices. I was like most Americans. I didn't know there was a such thing as "white middle class suburban American culture" until I was in graduate school. That's because it's generally positioned within our society as the norm, and may be even as we move towards that demographic being a numerical minority.

When people move into majority white, middle class, suburban neighborhoods, I agree they should take up the culture of those who live there if they have peace. I love to blast my music on the highway, but I learned when I am traveling in neighborhoods, it's best to turn the noise down. However, I tend to be polite, at least in person [[no matter what I'm thinking). Others may see no need to change their cultural practices or assimilate. Other than the association agreement, it's a free country.

[corktownyuppie]

I grilled on my front porch for 6 long years in Ann Arbor. That is because I lived in a rowhouse with no back porch, let alone a backyard. So, no, it wasn't because I was from Detroit. All my neighbors did so.

The main issue is that what "middle class white suburban America" sees as a universal norm are actually specific cultural practices. I was like most Americans. I didn't know there was a such thing as "white middle class suburban American culture" until I was in graduate school. That's because it's generally positioned within our society as the norm, and may be even as we move towards that demographic being a numerical minority.

When people move into majority white, middle class, suburban neighborhoods, I agree they should take up the culture of those who live there if they have peace. I love to blast my music on the highway, but I learned when I am traveling in neighborhoods, it's best to turn the noise down. However, I tend to be polite, at least in person [[no matter what I'm thinking). Others may see no need to change their cultural practices or assimilate. Other than the association agreement, it's a free country.

I'm right there with you, English. When I was 22, living in Ann Arbor, we had a hideous couch on the front porch, and me and my buddies would down 40-oz. bottles of Mickey's Fine Malt Liquor in the middle of the afternoon on Tuesday. Did I do this because I was from Detroit? No. I did it because I was in college. Hell, most of my housemates that year were from the Birminghams and Grosse Pointes of the world, and they did it too.

But now I'm a grown up. And even though I still listen to much of the music that you would've heard at Club LAX in my car driving down I-94, I know well enough not to be playing it out my window on Sunday morning if I want to live in peace with my neighborhood.

No one way is right or wrong. There's a lot I don't like about upper middle class suburban neighborhoods, which is why I live in Corktown. But if you're moving from the hood in search of greener pastures in Birmingham, you can't be pissed when they expect you to behave differently when you get there.....

[antongast]

Look, what we have here is very common and not just an issue of "Detroiters encroaching into the suburbs". It's the cultural clash that naturally occurs when peoples of different backgrounds, socio-economic roots, or any other demographic including age, religion, etc. come into contact with each other.

I experienced this a lot growing up because my parents were foreign, and I was a 1st gen American. They were fresh off the boat. And my family would regulary do things that were "weird" or "strange" by the social norms of my neighborhood on Detroit's eastside...then they eventually assimilated. That was 30+ years ago, and now when I tell my friends the stories of what my parents were like growing up they laugh at the incredulity of the stories.

So, yes, it doesn't surprise me as culture shock if you're moving from the Denby district to the posh lawns of Troy. No more than if you're a 3-generation kid from the Bronx moving into Sweet Home Alabama. Or if you're the old professor moving into the neighborhood of 19-year-old college students.

Of course, there's resentment on both sides, but like it or not, the people moving in will likely be the ones feeling the most pressure to change. And they will, if they want to stay in the neighborhood.

I pretty much agree with this. I was responding to the implication voiced by several posters that every single human being on the face of the earth should come out of the womb knowing not to do these things unless there's something egregiously wrong with them, which I think is horseshit.

Grilling on the front porch seems to me like a good way to enjoy delicious food, watch the comings and goings of the neighborhood, and casually interact with your neighbors. It's a dynamic akin to the Jane Jacobs "street ballet," and probably helps keep the neighborhood safer. Anyway, I can't see how it would possibly harm anyone, and I wouldn't mind at all if some of my neighbors decided to do it regularly. I might even get my own grill and join in.

Now, if you live in a neighborhood where all or most of your neighbors have a serious problem with your grilling parties, it might be advisable for you to stop doing it or move somewhere else, just because it's generally not much fun to live in a place where all your neighbors are continually angry at you. But if someone decides that they care more about grilling on their porch than about their relationships with their neighbors, I still don't see anything wrong with it.

[bartock]

I pretty much agree with this. I was responding to the implication voiced by several posters that every single human being on the face of the earth should come out of the womb knowing not to do these things unless there's something egregiously wrong with them, which I think is horseshit.

Grilling on the front porch seems to me like a good way to enjoy delicious food, watch the comings and goings of the neighborhood, and casually interact with your neighbors. It's a dynamic akin to the Jane Jacobs "street ballet," and probably helps keep the neighborhood safer. Anyway, I can't see how it would possibly harm anyone, and I wouldn't mind at all if some of my neighbors decided to do it regularly. I might even get my own grill and join in.

Now, if you live in a neighborhood where all or most of your neighbors have a serious problem with your grilling parties, it might be advisable for you to stop doing it or move somewhere else, just because it's generally not much fun to live in a place where all your neighbors are continually angry at you. But if someone decides that they care more about grilling on their porch than about their relationships with their neighbors, I still don't see anything wrong with it.

Only one person mentioned grilling on the front porch. The several other posters were referring to the statement about cutting the grass and taking the party inside after midnight.

[Eric_c]

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

Not mowing lawns for weeks and weeks at a time.

Never edging. Ever.

Not pulling weeds. Ever.

Not raking leaves. Ever.

Not shoveling the sidewalk. Ever.

Allowing all the handbills and fliers to collect wherever they are left, including in the weed-choked flower bed.

Allowing bits of blown trash to land and sit on and around the property. Forever.

If a fence falls down or a gutter falls off, leaving it where it lay. Forever.

Working on cars in the street or driveway. As a job.

Leaving cars in the street with flat tires.

Not cleaning up after one's dogs.

Screaming up and down the street to communicate.

Dumping construction debris and what-all in ones own backyard.

Never mowing said backyard. Ever.

Using living room furniture on the porch.


These are all examples of behaviors fresh from the farm that don't always mesh with people who aren't.

[English]

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

Not mowing lawns for weeks and weeks at a time.

Never edging. Ever.

Not pulling weeds. Ever.

Not raking leaves. Ever.

Not shoveling the sidewalk. Ever.

Allowing all the handbills and fliers to collect wherever they are left, including in the weed-choked flower bed.

Allowing bits of blown trash to land and sit on and around the property. Forever.

If a fence falls down or a gutter falls off, leaving it where it lay. Forever.

Working on cars in the street or driveway. As a job.

Leaving cars in the street with flat tires.

Not cleaning up after one's dogs.

Screaming up and down the street to communicate.

Dumping construction debris and what-all in ones own backyard.

Never mowing said backyard. Ever.

Using living room furniture on the porch.


These are all examples of behaviors fresh from the farm that don't always mesh with people who aren't.

Wow. I don't know... do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," and many people who grew up renting never learned the basics of home care [[or the norms of middle and upper class communities).

This discussion has really made me think. The city may have been better off had there not been so much open land and space, but perhaps one reason it's so bad off visually is because we're expecting people from generations of poverty and little to no home ownership to understand what you have to do to maintain a home. In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit.

I know how to take care of my house because my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were home owners. So do many of you. Conversely, if I'd always rented, it might seem intimidating.

[antongast]

You seem to have latched on to the idea of grilling on the porch, but let me throw some other things out there that cause consternation among certain communities:

I latched onto it [[admittedly, somewhat unfairly) because it was the best example of the point I was trying to make. But almost everything on this list is subjective to some extent, and everyone is annoyed by different sorts of behaviors. I just think it's important that, if we're going to have a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses, we critically examine them from time to time and make sure that they're actually rooted in some sort of identifiable quality-of-life issue for the broader neighborhood and not just in the desire to exclude or belittle people we perceive as boorish or low-class.

[Det_ard]

Wow. I don't know... do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," and many people who grew up renting never learned the basics of home care [[or the norms of middle and upper class communities).

This discussion has really made me think. The city may have been better off had there not been so much open land and space, but perhaps one reason it's so bad off visually is because we're expecting people from generations of poverty and little to no home ownership to understand what you have to do to maintain a home. In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit.

I know how to take care of my house because my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were home owners. So do many of you. Conversely, if I'd always rented, it might seem intimidating.

The issue isn't that some people don't know how to sweat copper pipe properly or run a new circuit for their pool filter. We're talking about raking, mowing, shoveling and picking up after oneself.

It's not lack of knowledge. It's lack of caring about basic homeowner/renter chores. It's not important to them. They don't give a shit. It's cultural. You don't see the Polish grandmothers living like this whether they be rich/poor or owners/renters. It's culture. What's valued and what's not. What does it take to get off the porch and pickup the trash on your front lawn you've been staring at for months? It takes the desire to do so, either because you value a trash-free yard, or you care about the fact that your neighbors do.

It's not a city/suburb or black/white thing. There is a sub-culture, IMO a dysfunctional one though that's of course a reflection of my values, that some call "ghetto" or "white trash". Take Eric C's list of gripes, and expand it to swearing in public no matter who's around, dropping trash on the ground, failing to properly feed, educate or inculcate your kids, scamming your way through life, using sheets, towels and newspapers as drapes, spending your money on a fancy Rent-a-Center TV a month before getting evicted, etc.

Maybe people who live like this learned from their parents, didn't have better role models, went to crappy schools, whatever. Bottom line, I don't want to live near them. Neither do most other people. That's why some areas are shitholes and are going to stay that way. Not code for "Detroit", plenty of nicer areas in Detroit not overrun with idiots. Lots of suburban neighborhoods full of ghetto/white trash folk, ahem, "people with different cultural values".

[corktownyuppie]

The issue isn't that some people don't know how to sweat copper pipe properly or run a new circuit for their pool filter. We're talking about raking, mowing, shoveling and picking up after oneself.

It's not lack of knowledge. It's lack of caring about basic homeowner/renter chores. It's not important to them. They don't give a shit. It's cultural. You don't see the Polish grandmothers living like this whether they be rich/poor or owners/renters. It's culture. What's valued and what's not. What does it take to get off the porch and pickup the trash on your front lawn you've been staring at for months? It takes the desire to do so, either because you value a trash-free yard, or you care about the fact that your neighbors do.

It's not a city/suburb or black/white thing. There is a sub-culture, IMO a dysfunctional one though that's of course a reflection of my values, that some call "ghetto" or "white trash". Take Eric C's list of gripes, and expand it to swearing in public no matter who's around, dropping trash on the ground, failing to properly feed, educate or inculcate your kids, scamming your way through life, using sheets, towels and newspapers as drapes, spending your money on a fancy Rent-a-Center TV a month before getting evicted, etc.

Maybe people who live like this learned from their parents, didn't have better role models, went to crappy schools, whatever. Bottom line, I don't want to live near them. Neither do most other people. That's why some areas are shitholes and are going to stay that way. Not code for "Detroit", plenty of nicer areas in Detroit not overrun with idiots. Lots of suburban neighborhoods full of ghetto/white trash folk, ahem, "people with different cultural values".

[[1) I don't want to live near them either.
[[2) For those that know how to change but won't, they can go on to suffer
[[3) But for many, if given the opportunity, they would change. People change. People change! Sometimes willingly. Sometimes they change and grow because they are forced to [[i.e. City leaders all of sudden dealing with this sudden and unexpected fiscal crisis).

This sub-culture...white, black, shades of grey... there are versions of it all over the world. I have a friend from Norway who refers to Finland as "the Mexico of the Scandinavian Peninsula" [[Apologies to my Finnish and Mexican brethren). It's the INEVITABILITY of an unequal society.

And while it's easy for me, living in the privilege of my upper income and education, to look at them and judge...let's remember that in the passage of time, generations coming after us will look at me and my ways from a position of greater wealth and privilege and shudder at the crude standards and values by which I allowed myself to live. No different than we hear stories of our grandparents sharing a bedroom with 3 other siblings. WTF??!

Look, I get the desire to not have to deal with "these people". It's natural. I went to private school because my parents wanted me to avoid "these people". I have a secured garage and live on the 5th floor to avoid "these people".

But here's the other reality. Like it or not, these people are here. And their troubles eventually become our troubles. Even if they don't live next door,.,.moving 6 blocks, 6 miles, or 6 cities away will not change that.

It's not either/or. Some of these shitholes will remain shitholes. Others are made of people who will want to change. Reward those who are making the effort. Look compassionately at the suffering of those who won't. C'est la vie....

[Pam]

if we're going to have a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses

I think in most places they are written rules- city codes etc.

[Meddle]

I don't know where thins is going or what it has to do with the thread topic, but none of the things in post #33 were done where I grew up on the Northwest side [[Greenfield/Puritan). It was a blue collar neighborhood, but everybody took care of their homes. Trash was kept in the back yard, cans put out the night before pick-up [[or maybe even that morning) and brought in before nightfall.

Lawns were always cut and edged. Snow was cleared off sidewalks. If the neighbors couldn't do theirs due to age or illness, somebody else did it for them.

It was urban as any other place, but it wasn't ghetto. I'd really hate to see that area now.

And it isn't 'a bunch of unwritten rules about what people can and can't do with their houses '. It's how mature, responsible adults behave.

[detroitsgwenivere]

I still live in Royal Oak...

Yeah, I kinda figured, considering the hostility in your post.

Ummmm, and no my only "experience" with a bus system was not PACE. I've never even taken PACE, never said that I did.

That what one of your previous posts said. I check those to make sure I'm not wasting time responding to some dubious troll.

I just think using "Royal Joke" would be like someone around you calling Detroit, Detoilet all the time.

If the shoe fits. I've lived in Detroit as long as I've lived in RJ, the only member of my family or childhood friends to do so. Believe me, I'm used to it.

What do you mean by this? You make it sound like RO has suddenly become what happened Highland Park...

No, it's not that deep. My family had some personal issues with the city that ballooned into a serious situation.

My father, who worked religiously on avg. 60-80 hrs a week, got a $350 ticket from RO code enforcement because there was peeling paint on the garage. Upset, he went to the CE office to try and work something out. They weren't having any of that. When Dad inquired as to how the CE person even saw the peeling paint, since our drive is narrow, our conversion van was parked in the drive and you can't see past it, the CE guy told him he went into the back yard to inspect, which sounds a lot like "trespassing" to my Dad. Things got ugly, and it went to court. The fine was reduced. Then, about 8 mo's later, Dad gets a notice that he's in contempt of court for failing to appear and a warrent has been issued for his arrest. Dad's lawyer found out that the CE issued my Dad another ticket for peeling paint the day after the previous court date, as well as a ticket for having a two track cement drive [[as opposed to a whole slab, It was 2 track when we moved there) and a ticket for parking his work truck on the street [[not an actual violation if it's parked there unmoved for less than 24 hrs). The CE guy never sent copies or the notice to appear to my Dad, as it was obviously a personal grudge. As a matter of fact, they claimed that they didn't have to send copies or tape them to the door. As a "responsible homeowner" every property owner is expected to inquire into any and all legalities involving said property. The CE guy also had no qualms about letting my Dad know that, "..if you can't handle living up to the standards expected by our city code, maybe you and your family would be better off living elsewhere." My Dad, who's never been convicted of a crime and always kept a roof over his family's head and made time to mow his lawn, was now a wanted man in Royal Oak because of peeling paint on the garage. He was gone within 6 mos. I was already long gone to Detroit.

No one would care to read the pages of stories I could write about regarding the issues my counterparts and I dealt with living there.

I feel like I've become the perpetrator of a tread jacking. I'm glad no one was hurt in the shooting at the Y and they caught the careless that did it.

[SteveJ]

I remember about 5 years back I saw everything I needed to see. There was a big snow storm and a week later the sidewalks weren't shoveled so of the news stations got volunteers [[from the suburbs) and cleaned off these people's sidewalks. What was sad was when they went knocking on the door, you saw young people in their 20's walking around in bath robes. This is just pure laziness. Shovel your snow. Pick up your garbage. Cut your grass. That is not unwritten rules. Its what civilized people do around the world. Nothing to do with farmers and all those excuses. Its ghetto trash.

[adamjab19]

well this thread is following my 'don't read anything past page one' rule. Jeez. I figured this would turn into who does what better type of thread.

[dtowncitylover]

I've never took PACE as I lived in the city. I remember talking about PACE in another thread [[about SMART's leaving the city during non-peak hours). As with your father, I bet one of your neighbors told the city about the garage and that why he came out to see. A snooty neighbor of ours called the city to tell them about some small cement slabs [[old ones from when we put in a patio) we had in our backyard. Suddenly we get in the mail, from our the city, pictures and warning if we did not remove the cement slabs we would fined. We 1) were stunned and 2) complied.

It makes me cringe however that your family rents, hopefully this isn't residential property.

[downtown_racine]

There is nothing wrong with grilling on the porch it just a sign you live in a po' folks zone, or a tucky area.

I understand about all kinds of hillbilly type individuals living in urban areas as well. Some people think living in urban areas prevents one from being hillbillyish I do not understand this mentality.

[detroitsgwenivere]

It makes me cringe however that your family rents, hopefully this isn't residential property.

???

Why is that? Because the house has a cement 2 track instead of a full slab? or cuz the garage had some peeling paint 15 years ago? My Father takes care of his house, as previously stated.

And what other type of property has a lawn, garage and a driveway with a family living in it?

[lapdawg]

Boringscam, jerkeley, I am homegrown detroiter, I fought in two conflicts and still proudly say i learned to shoot at seven mile and Livernois.....lol

[ordinary]

It's seems to me with all the job losses and economic depression violent crime is last resort.

That's demagoguery, pure and simple.

[lapdawg]

Where are you at that you see wave upon wave of cruisers? the most i have seen in one place was when RO and MH were pulling me over. there were five of them but thats back in '90 and that was the border of two cities. i haven't been there in a while, but i still have contacts back there.

[corktownyuppie]

Boringscam, jerkeley, I am homegrown detroiter, I fought in two conflicts and still proudly say i learned to shoot at seven mile and Livernois.....lol

The best thing about Seven Mile and Livernois was this ridiculous drug store called -- no joke -- "Phone Don for Drugs". Good times.

[ismoakrack]

"...do you guys think that some of Detroit's bane has been because we weren't ever a traditionally urban city? I think that a growing number of people of all classes simply aren't "house people," In other cities, they lived in multifamily dwellings and highrises. Those in a similar demographic in other cities didn't have the large, single family homes that they were able to rent in Detroit."


I think this has everything to do with why Detroit has failed so miserably. The overwhelming majority of it consists of the least desirable housing, and said housing has long outlived its cultural lifespan. Sure, the houses themselves could still be charming had they been maintained properly, but lot sizes are far too small, in conjunction with the majority of the houses that sit on them.

In terms of housing stock, Detroit is the worst of both worlds; on the one hand, larger American cities skew heavily toward high-rise condo and apartment living, with retail and services within walking, biking or short-driving distance [[East Coast and Midwest). On the other, you have single family homes, almost all of which are at least 1000 sf feet, on lot sized considerably larger than most of Detroit's parcels [[South and West Coast).

But Detroit is crammed with tiny houses on tiny lots. There is no room to breath. It only makes sense that once people could leave the city for larger houses on larger lots, they did [[in the absence of quality high-rise options). Take Brightmoor for example. That neighborhood was specifically intended to be a neighborhood of starter homes. In face, some oversized [[for Detroit) lots had tiny houses built on them with the intention that the owner would eventually demolish it and build a larger one.

In that sense, it's as if Detroit is overwhelmed with starter homes. Now that a few generations have moved up and out, and the country's standard of living has become higher in many respects, what is left is a city full of houses desirable to almost no one.