How much of Detroit must burn down before Federal troops arrive?

[DetroitPlanner]

It seems futile at this point to do much of anything on a local level. No other American city is as bad as Detroit is today.

Hmm dunno about that....
Gary, IN
Youngstown OH
Cleveland OH
Toledo OH
Dayton OH
Saginaw MI
Flint MI
Pontiac MI

Have all lost more population than they now have. What do all of these cities have in common? They are all industrial cities that have not been able to reposition themselves. The only one that seems to have done allright is Pittsburgh and thats becaust they have recognized that they will never be the same as they were and moved on.

BTW, it seems you are answering your own question. Are you trolling for an arguement?

[antongast]

I'm not sure how federal troops are supposed to be the solution to parts of the city being burned-out and blighted. Here are some examples of what built-up urban areas typically look like after US military interventions:

[Scottathew]

I'm not sure how federal troops are supposed to be the solution to parts of the city being burned-out and blighted. Here are some examples of what built-up urban areas typically look like after US military interventions:

Yeah, we're pretty good at that...

Not that I would be for a government bailout of Detroit, but I'd rather we spend our money on helping folks in Detroit than killing people around the world.


The bottom picture is a nuke on a Japanese city, right? I have no idea what the top one is, perhaps a German city from WWII?

[EastsideAl]

The bottom picture is a nuke on a Japanese city, right? I have no idea what the top one is, perhaps a German city from WWII?

The top picture is from the US/British destruction of Drseden in WWII, the bottom picture is of the destruction of the A-bombing of Nagasaki.

[313WX]

Hmm dunno about that....
Gary, IN
Youngstown OH
Cleveland OH
Toledo OH
Dayton OH
Saginaw MI
Flint MI
Pontiac MI

Have all lost more population than they now have. What do all of these cities have in common? They are all industrial cities that have not been able to reposition themselves. The only one that seems to have done allright is Pittsburgh and thats becaust they have recognized that they will never be the same as they were and moved on.

BTW, it seems you are answering your own question. Are you trolling for an arguement?

He meant major american city.

Cleveland may be an exception, but even its worst areas aren't nearly as bad as Detroit's worst areas. Plus their downtown is well ahead of our downtown in terms of a revival.

Pittsburgh knew they had to diversify their economy before their city hit rock bottom, which helped them. Detroit is just not realizing that's what it has to do as well, but it may be too little too late if it means saving Detroit as is [[a major american city).

[EastsideAl]

We've been invaded by federal troops twice in the past century. That's really the last thing we need again. Talk about doing something that's going to create resentment! We already spend enough money sending out troops halfway around the world to kill people and spread resentment. In any event, I'm wondering where you would find the Constitutional authority to do such a thing? The city may be in very rough shape, but that's primarily a matter of economics and population shifts. There's no insurrection going on here.

As for your notion of federal dollars pouring into Detroit, that is just laughable. Many many areas of the country, including a lot of places far wealthier and in much better shape than Detroit, receive a lot more federal dollars per capita and a far greater return on the federal tax dollars they put in than Detroit does. We can't even get enough to keep our buses running, due to changes in federal transit funding that highly favor the building of highways in North Dakota over the funding of transit in our cities. You want to spend some federal money in Detroit, how about starting with something like that that would actually help the people who live here, rather than bringing in the frigging tanks.

[bailey]

He meant major american city.

Cleveland may be an exception, but even its worst areas aren't nearly as bad as Detroit's worst areas. Plus their downtown is well ahead of our downtown in terms of a revival.

Pittsburgh knew they had to diversify their economy before their city hit rock bottom, which helped them. Detroit is just not realizing that's what it has to do as well, but it may be too little too late if it means saving Detroit as is [[a major american city).

Did Pittsburgh diversify or did it already have other things going for it to cushion the fall or make the fall a far softer landing than what Detroit's could be. One glaring difference I see is that Pittsburgh has several major universities that are not based on commuter/non traditional students inside it's city limits that anchor major sections of the city. It also has a few more in the 'burbs that no doubt contribute to the knowledge based economy.

I mean,take WSU and Uof D and add in UM, Central, EMU and Oakland along with the majority of their student bodies, as well as all the jobs that go with all those students and you're getting close to the total in higher education economy that Pittsburgh has had at its disposal.

Also, go take a look at the large companies that have called Pittsburgh home [[an airline, a few massive banks, aluminum producers, natural gas suppliers, Heinz...etc) and continue to do so and then look at Detroit...not Metro Detroit ...Detroit, city of.

I'm really not sure Detroit counts as a "major American city" any longer...it was on the right list. Frankly, being the only city of it's size without a mass transit system [[DDOT is NOT mass transit) is disqualifier enough.

[animatedmartian]

Did Pittsburgh diversify or did it already have other things going for it to cushion the fall or make the fall a far softer landing than what Detroit's could be. One glaring difference I see is that Pittsburgh has several major universities that are not based on commuter/non traditional students inside it's city limits that anchor major sections of the city. It also has a few more in the 'burbs that no doubt contribute to the knowledge based economy.

I mean,take WSU and Uof D and add in UM, Central, EMU and Oakland along with the majority of their student bodies, as well as all the jobs that go with all those students and you're getting close to the total in higher education economy that Pittsburgh has had at its disposal.

Also, go take a look at the large companies that have called Pittsburgh home [[an airline, a few massive banks, aluminum producers, natural gas suppliers, Heinz...etc) and continue to do so and then look at Detroit.

I'm really not sure Detroit counts as a "major American city" any longer...it belongs on the list you were so offended by.

Yea really when you think about it, all the companies that are HQ'd in Detroit are mostly small to midsize companies. The Big 3 are still pretty much the only thing keeping Detroit from shrinking further.

[Detroit Stylin]

How about we recognize it for what it really is. The 800lb gorillas in the room are regional/ statewide racism that got the city to the state where it is today and the same entities that are determined to keep it in the state that it is in now. ALSO state indifference, political apathy and the fact that he is implying sending federal troops into the city seems to have a very racist implication cause clearly we need the federal troops to keep the animals that inhabit the city at bay.

I seriously don't see the need to keep entertaining the troll since he has clearly laid bare before you what he really thinks...

[Wesley Mouch]

How about we recognize it for what it really is. The 800lb gorillas in the room are regional/ statewide racism that got the city to the state where it is today and the same entities that are determined to keep it in the state that it is in now. ALSO state indifference, <snip>

This is precisely the sort of denial thinking that keeps Detroit where it is. Sure, there's racism aplenty to find, if you want to find it. But ignoring the much larger issues on the table is self-destructive. There's absolutely nothing about Detroit that couldn't be solved, if the people of Detroit decide to set their own destiny -- and stop looking at only the failings of other -- such as racism. Let them be racist. And make yourself great. That's the best cure for racism anyway.

[English]

Why wasn't this question asked when something could have been done about it -- 20 or 30 years ago?

What happened to Detroit, and why, is a major cottage industry around these parts, OP. Me, I'm just ready to get on with things. We've been having the same discussion for darn near 50 years.

[corktownyuppie]

Why wasn't this question asked when something could have been done about it -- 20 or 30 years ago?

What happened to Detroit, and why, is a major cottage industry around these parts, OP. Me, I'm just ready to get on with things. We've been having the same discussion for darn near 50 years.

I think we blame the systemic failures of democracy. Democracy works pretty well when things are growing. We fight how to allocate the profits of our growth. On aggregate, people's lives get better. We live longer. We eat more. We have more space.

When we are shrinking, democracy is a total disaster because no one wants to shrink unless everyone does else does it first. So then the system rewards inaction over action. The system rewards slow change over quick change.

It's amazing to see City Council fighting the Mayor for more cuts. As recently as 4 years ago we knew this train was coming, but you didn't hear a peep from anyone.

As soon as you can find a candidate who's willing to run on the "I will make sure you feel moderate pain now to prevent you from feeling disastrous pain in 15 years"...and I'll show you a citizenry that makes educated decisions for the greater good based on the values of a long time-horizon.

Society hasn't gotten there yet.

[English]

I think we blame the systemic failures of democracy. Democracy works pretty well when things are growing. We fight how to allocate the profits of our growth. On aggregate, people's lives get better. We live longer. We eat more. We have more space.

When we are shrinking, democracy is a total disaster because no one wants to shrink unless everyone does else does it first. So then the system rewards inaction over action. The system rewards slow change over quick change.

It's amazing to see City Council fighting the Mayor for more cuts. As recently as 4 years ago we knew this train was coming, but you didn't hear a peep from anyone.

As soon as you can find a candidate who's willing to run on the "I will make sure you feel moderate pain now to prevent you from feeling disastrous pain in 15 years"...and I'll show you a citizenry that makes educated decisions for the greater good based on the values of a long time-horizon.

Society hasn't gotten there yet.

Good points, corktown.

As for the bolded? We're DOOMED.

[corktownyuppie]

We're DOOMED.

Thanks, English.

You know, thinking about your reaction brings municipal bond ratings to mind. Every time someone states, "We need to do xyz in order to improve the bond rating," someone else cries out, "Why do we care more about BOND RATINGS than we care about PEOPLE?"

The mere utterance of that question only indicates the ignorance of the one asking it. Bond ratings are not an end to itself. Bond ratings are the best indicator to judge how likely it is that we will be in the very situation we are in right now. In other words bond ratings represent people TOO. They just represent the people of tomorrow, rather than the people of today.

At one point in Detroit's history we were an "A" rated municipality. Maybe even AA. We are now squarely in the CCC range, At every point when our bond rating declined, from 'A' to 'A-' to 'BBB+' and all the way to the BB and down, this was a signal that this day was coming. [[Oakland County is AAA, as is Macomb County and Ann Arbor as well). This day has been coming for a long, long time.

The same can be said about General Motors. As recently as 2001, GM bonds were in the BBB range and lowering and lowering and lowering. Their bankruptcy was hardly a sudden surprise. But to ask the common man on the street, the response was, "If GM could fail, then how can anything be safe?!" I didn't know the whole time that it would eventually go bankrupt, but one could hardly be shocked or surprised.

Here's my modest proposal:

On each person's paystub or pension check for every city in Michigan -- and on any vendor's paycheck -- they should print the credit rating of the payor, as well as a percentage likelihood that the payment is likely to be sustained in the future.

I'd like to believe that had Detroiters received paychecks 5 years ago stating that there was 30-50% chance of insolvency in the future, then maybe people would've acted differently.

Half our city is functionally illiterate. How can you expect them to understand what the hell a 'bond rating' is?! So how can we be surprised that our politicians lacked the courage to take this head on. They were simply reflecting the attitudes of the people who elected them.

It's quite telling that only under the threat of an EM is our city leadership finally willing to talk cuts. Makes you wonder how elections would've gone 2 years ago if we were 6 months from insolvency on election day...maybe then could someone win under the "I'll fire 2 out every 3 of you" platform

[mwilbert]

Democracies can have a problem instituting policies with long-term benefits vs. short-term pain, but I don't see that was the problem with the mayor and city council of several years ago. They weren't formulating policies at all. The council of four years ago was mostly composed of members who wouldn't have understood a budget in any case, and I seem to recall that the mayor was preoccupied with non-policy matters.

[ordinary]

and I seem to recall that the mayor was preoccupied with non-policy matters.

You are so polite. I mean that as a compliment.