The Death of the Fringe Suburb

[Detroitnerd]

Funny we mention the M-59 corridor... I was driving along the route the other day [[out of necessity), and I have to say that it appears to have become the retail CENTER of the tri-county area. I mean Oakland County is richer than Macomb County... and yet they have nothing to compare it with [[Orchard Lake Rd. and Novi Rd. just don't compare).

Where else do you find a fruit market [[Nini Salvggio's) with the look and size of a modern train station? [[twin towered no less).... and a Walmart that has the facade look [[sans the Independence Hall tower) and size of The Henry Ford Museum.

That stretch of roadway has so much traffic and commerce, that at Romeo Plank Rd. M-59 has 2 Speedway Gas Stations right across the street from each other.

Now I'm not defending this sprawl... and don't like to traverse M-59.... but for all the Macomb County bashers... it appears that this stretch of retail exceeds even the excesses of Big Beaver, Orchard Lake Rd., and Novi Rd. in Oakland County to become the retail megacenter of SE Michigan.

Is this or will this area be dying or unsustainable?? Not in our lifetime it appears....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gURUM...rect=1#t=1m23s

[bartock]

[QUOTE=SteveJ;287532]

No, I wouldn't either. I hate Macomb County but I can't deny how busy M-59 is up there and how its laughable to insist that its dying but Detroit is on some kind of rebound when the census figures and the pending bankruptcy says otherwise.

We moved from Harper Woods to the area of 21 Mile Road due north of Lakeside Mall. I am one of the few idiots who work downtown and live up there, but whatever. It is a very busy, congested area and still growing. While it seems like a couple of projects [[like Market Street) were more ambitious than their final product, they are still building rows and rows of townhouses out at 25/Van Dyke, just as one example. Like Cincinnati Kid mentioned, there are a number of Canadian plates in the parking lots of the obscene amount of retail.

[SteveJ]

Just because a few young people are bailing out to Chicago after college doesn't mean everyone wants to live in some closet sized apartment up 10 floors with a bunch of noise. The reality is when these young people get families they will come back to the suburbs so they can give their kids a quiet and save environment. More people are moving out of Chicago than are moving in.

[Detroitnerd]

Just because a few young people are bailing out to Chicago after college doesn't mean everyone wants to live in some closet sized apartment up 10 floors with a bunch of noise. The reality is when these young people get families they will come back to the suburbs so they can give their kids a quiet and save environment. More people are moving out of Chicago than are moving in.

Wow. Dude, you have never lived in the city, have you? And you do realize that much of the layout of Detroit proper is suburban?

Thanks, but "the reality is" I think I'll base my opinions on people who at least know first-hand about cities, and what makes them desirable.

[ghettopalmetto]

Just because a few young people are bailing out to Chicago after college doesn't mean everyone wants to live in some closet sized apartment up 10 floors with a bunch of noise. The reality is when these young people get families they will come back to the suburbs so they can give their kids a quiet and save environment. More people are moving out of Chicago than are moving in.

Ignore those "few young people" at your own peril--they tend to be college-educated with high earnings potential.

Nobody ever said anything about forcing you to live in a closet-sized apartment with a bunch of pesky kids. But for those who do want that option, it simply doesn't exist in Detroit. More likely than not, if these people do move into the suburbs at some point [[if ever), they're more likely to move into the suburbs of Chicago, DC, San Francisco, or whereever than to move back to Michigan. Once they're gone, they're gone.

It's worth noting...the US Census found the people moving out of Chicago into the suburbs tend to be poor and uneducated, while the educated young professionals are still moving in.

Like I said, ignore this generational attitude shift at your own peril. With attitudes like yours abounding, SteveJ, its really not a surprise that people with options are increasingly choosing to vote with their feet. As if there's something innately inhuman about a person who could want anything besides a 3/2 beige plastic-covered house on 1/4 acre located a 20 minute drive from anything.

[Detroitnerd]

Like I said, ignore this generational attitude shift at your own peril. With attitudes like yours abounding, SteveJ, its really not a surprise that people with options are increasingly choosing to vote with their feet. As if there's something innately inhuman about a person who could want anything besides a 3/2 beige plastic-covered house on 1/4 acre located 20 minutes from anything.

What? Since metro Detroit doesn't give a shit about cities, we just have miles after mile of vinyl-sided private houses with garages in front. And if you like city life, the attitude isn't that different from SteveJ: "Sorry, we're not going to invest in urban areas. And why would you want to live in a cockroach-infested hellhole? You're going to want suburban living sooner or later, so we will provide you with no alternative."

And that stream of intelligent young people educated at Michigan's expense leaving the state? Pay no attention to them. Just keep rationalizing stuff that you really don't know or care that much about.

[iheartthed]

Ignore those "few young people" at your own peril--they tend to be college-educated with high earnings potential.

Some of them also tend to be jobs creators... Like those kids who went to Chicago and created Groupon. Or that other kid who went to California and helped to create Google...

[iheartthed]

Just because a few young people are bailing out to Chicago after college doesn't mean everyone wants to live in some closet sized apartment up 10 floors with a bunch of noise. The reality is when these young people get families they will come back to the suburbs so they can give their kids a quiet and save environment. More people are moving out of Chicago than are moving in.

They're moving out of the "Detroit-like" areas of Chicago. The areas of Chicago that are well served by transit and services are actually increasing in population.

[Detroitnerd]

They're moving out of the "Detroit-like" areas of Chicago. The areas of Chicago that are well served by transit and services are actually increasing in population.

But we wouldn't know anything about that. Why hain't gas buggies good 'nuff fer them?

[Bham1982]

It's worth noting...the US Census found the people moving out of Chicago into the suburbs tend to be poor and uneducated, while the educated young professionals are still moving in.

That isn't really true.

The Census found that Chicago had suffered the second greatest population loss in the nation, second only to Detroit.

Yes, they were especially losing poor and uneducated, but they were also losing middle and upper middle class folks.

They lost whites, blacks, immigrants, everyone. Only downtown gained.

Chicago is evidence that you can't turn around a city just by subsidizing downtown yuppies and hipsters. You need a more broad-based revitalization, and you need to fix the neighborhoods to fix the city.

If Detroit ever revitalizes, IMO it won't be because of Midtown and the like. It will be because of 7 Mile/Livernois, Dexter/Davison, etc.

[Bham1982]

They're moving out of the "Detroit-like" areas of Chicago. The areas of Chicago that are well served by transit and services are actually increasing in population.

And the equivalent neighborhoods of Detroit are also increasing in population. Granted, it's a smaller percentage, but the same trend.

There aren't enough yuppies and hipsters in the world to fix our major cities. You need regular folks to invest in cities.

[Detroitnerd]

Some people will consistently bend over backward to miss points they don't want to acknowledge.

[ghettopalmetto]

And the equivalent neighborhoods of Detroit are also increasing in population. Granted, it's a smaller percentage, but the same trend.

There aren't enough yuppies and hipsters in the world to fix our major cities. You need regular folks to invest in cities.

Any excuse to justify the status quo, eh? God forbid anything ever challenge your paradigm.

Move along now, nothing to see here. Detroit may stink, but by golly, does Oakland County have some "world-class" suburbs.

I guess I'm just curious to know what you mean by "regular" folks.

[iheartthed]

And the equivalent neighborhoods of Detroit are also increasing in population. Granted, it's a smaller percentage, but the same trend.

There aren't enough yuppies and hipsters in the world to fix our major cities. You need regular folks to invest in cities.

Who said they would? Not me... I've pointed out plenty of times on this forum that places like NYC, Boston or SF would be declining in population if not for foreign immigration. Heck, Michael Bloomberg himself knows his city is salvaged by foreign immigrants. Why do you think he suggested sending immigrants to Detroit as an amnesty program?

That said, there does seem to be a correlation between the cities that yuppies and hippies prefer and the cities that immigrants tend to favor. Especially when the destination can't easily be explained away by geographical convenience [[i.e. Mexican and central Americans ending up in Texas and California).

[ghettopalmetto]

That said, there does seem to be a correlation between the cities that yuppies and hippies prefer and the cities that immigrants tend to favor. Especially when the destination can't easily be explained away by geographical convenience [[i.e. Mexican and central Americans ending up in Texas and California).

And that correlation is spelled J-O-B-S.

It's also worth noting that most immigrants don't come from places where they live in vinyl-clad subdivisions and drive everywhere for everything. And people who are able to choose where to live tend to look for cohesive neighborhoods with a lot of day-to-day amenties within a short walk, since places like Sterling Heights can be found anywhere in America. Quality of life is an enormous factor when trying to attract new residents from elsewhere--the folks who are going to work hard to grow a city and an economy are not the ones who are content to sit in front of a television seven nights a week.

[corktownyuppie]

That isn't really true.

The Census found that Chicago had suffered the second greatest population loss in the nation, second only to Detroit.

Yes, they were especially losing poor and uneducated, but they were also losing middle and upper middle class folks.

They lost whites, blacks, immigrants, everyone. Only downtown gained.

Chicago is evidence that you can't turn around a city just by subsidizing downtown yuppies and hipsters. You need a more broad-based revitalization, and you need to fix the neighborhoods to fix the city.

If Detroit ever revitalizes, IMO it won't be because of Midtown and the like. It will be because of 7 Mile/Livernois, Dexter/Davison, etc.

I'm in agreement. But you gotta pick the winners and losers. 7 mile/Livernois, Dexter/Davison, ok. Now add southwest Detroit, ok. Now add East English Village, ok. But throw in the 40 other neighborhoods...it gets tougher.

There's gonna be a middle class. It's going to make up the majority of the city. But it's gotta condense itself, so that the city can focus its resources there instead of having 2 fire fighters responsible for covering 40 blocks with 300 familes and 200 vacant houses.

And...you need more rich people, because the city is in bad need of capital investment, and there's plenty of money to be made. I mean, when you're talking about buying a house for $40,000, you can buy the whole damned block for the price of a nice house. Rich people like to invest where they are familiar. When you welcome them back, they will invest in their homes, their neighborhoods, the surrounding neighborhoods, ec.

But it's hard to be familiar with Woodward and 6 Mile when you live at Hall and Drake. Hell, for many that live at Hall and Drake, Dexter Linwood, Delray, and Corktown might as well all be the same thing.

[SteveJ]

And that correlation is spelled J-O-B-S.

It's also worth noting that most immigrants don't come from places where they live in vinyl-clad subdivisions and drive everywhere for everything. And people who are able to choose where to live tend to look for cohesive neighborhoods with a lot of day-to-day amenties within a short walk, since places like Sterling Heights can be found anywhere in America. Quality of life is an enormous factor when trying to attract new residents from elsewhere--the folks who are going to work hard to grow a city and an economy are not the ones who are content to sit in front of a television seven nights a week.

Most of the immigrants that come to the area are in love with the big homes in the northern suburbs once they get established. Go up to West Bloomfield, Troy, Shelby Twp, etc... Most of those homes are owned by immigrants. Their definition of success is a big new house which is a big status symbol to them since they couldn't afford something like that back home. Look at all the Arab party store in owners in Detroit, I bet very few if any live in Detroit.

[mwilbert]

I'm not at all convinced that retail strips like M-59 are going to be long-term winners. America is massively over-stored, and as people continue to shift more purchases to the internet, it seems to me that it is going to be hard to keep those big retail strips filled. When I drive down one of those strips [[not M-59, which I never drive down) I am struck by the very low percentage of businesses which I would ever conceivably patronize.

[mwilbert]

Go up to West Bloomfield, Troy, Shelby Twp, etc... Most of those homes are owned by immigrants

No they aren't. Where do you come up with this stuff. Troy foreign-born population is about 20%. Same with West Bloomfield. More like 10% in Shelby Township.

[iheartthed]

And that correlation is spelled J-O-B-S.

It's also worth noting that most immigrants don't come from places where they live in vinyl-clad subdivisions and drive everywhere for everything. And people who are able to choose where to live tend to look for cohesive neighborhoods with a lot of day-to-day amenties within a short walk, since places like Sterling Heights can be found anywhere in America. Quality of life is an enormous factor when trying to attract new residents from elsewhere--the folks who are going to work hard to grow a city and an economy are not the ones who are content to sit in front of a television seven nights a week.

Yeah, jobs is part of it... But I think it may go a little deeper than that.

I think that the "ease of transition" plays a huge factor. New York gets a lot of flack for being expensive but the city is incredibly welcoming to immigrants. It is far easier to be a newly arrived immigrant in New York than it is in Detroit.

[iheartthed]

No they aren't. Where do you come up with this stuff. Troy foreign-born population is about 20%. Same with West Bloomfield. More like 10% in Shelby Township.

And Troy is probably more the extreme than the rule. I believe Hamtramck has the highest foreign born percentage of population in Michigan.

[Bham1982]

It does seem that [[purely anecdotally) a lot of the McMansion-type stuff in places like Troy and West Bloomfield are occupied by foreign-born folks, or at least second generation [[whether Arabs, Chaldeans, South Asians, Albanians, or whatever).

And, correspondingly, a lot of the older ranch-style housing and 60's colonial stuff appears to be occupied by "regular" long-time Metro Detroit white folks.

I think there are varying residential preferences based on background, and many immigrants prefer the over-the-top "look at me" feel of the newer developments. Shows the folks back home you've made it.

I know I'm stereotyping, but you know those recently built gaudy mega-McMansions in Bloomfield Township, right on Telegraph just south of Square Lake Rd?

I can't imagine anyone born in Michigan would want to build their dream house right on Telegraph, complete with statues and the like, and just a few feet from the roadway. It's not how folks roll here.

I have noticed that in other countries, the wealthy build their homes on the main road, to show off their prosperity. We seem to do the opposite here in MI. The rich in MI generally hide from view, on dirt roads off Lone Pine and the like.

There are other examples, where I bet the new homes are built by immigrants. There are some McMansions right on Telegraph in Dearborn, or right on Metropolitan Parkway in Sterling Heights.

[ThisIsForTheHeart]

Brighton to the tech center is less than an hour. Plus you're going the opposite of traffic so you're good. A lot of people may have one spouse that works in Lansing and one that works in the metro area somewhere. I know Brighton is real popular with downtown Lansing workers.

It took me over 30 minutes to get from M5/696 to 12 mile and mound on a Saturday morning. Take on another 25 mins from Brighton to M5/696 and add traffic which is also bottle neck going east in the morning as well coming home going west and you got a longer commute than an hour.

[Scottathew]

Today we went out to a birthday party for one of my daughters friends [[side note, how does one obtain friends before she is 2?).

We drove out to M-59 and Card Road. It was yet another case of a half built subdivision seemingly frozen in time. As you drive into the sub you see nothing but cleared land with nothing on it.

Such a shame. The subdivision would have looked nice if they left nature up on the undeveloped lots, but unfortunately, they cleared it all years ago.

[SteveJ]

It took me over 30 minutes to get from M5/696 to 12 mile and mound on a Saturday morning. Take on another 25 mins from Brighton to M5/696 and add traffic which is also bottle neck going east in the morning as well coming home going west and you got a longer commute than an hour.

Traffic is a bottleneck going west in the morning and east at night. I know because I work in Macomb.