Moving to Detroit from Sweden; any advice?

[Bham1982]

This guy wants to send his kids to a public school in Detroit and my point is it is possible to send your kids to DPS and get a good education. Im sure you understood that. It seems people are ignorant to this fact.

You're missing the point.

Yes, it's theoretically possible to send your child to any public school in the nation and get a good education. The biggest factors in academic achievement come from home life.

The question wasn't whether it was theoretically possible to attend DPS and learn. The question was whether city schools are comparable to suburban schools, which they aren't.

As to University Liggett, all the fancy private schools have lots of former DPS students, and current Detroit residents, many of them on partial scholarship. Country Day has a ton, Cranbrook and Roeper have many.

To me, that's indicative of the failure of DPS. They can't keep their most promising students.

[bartock]

I'd never move to a foreign country and purchase housing right away. Getting back to suggestions, the thread starter should rent for a year. Live "centrally" as to Metro Detroit - like south Oakland County [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Huntington Woods, Berkley, Oak Park, etc.). Figure out what is best for the family and what the family prefers based on getting used to the area, culture, etc., then look to purchase. The kids may have to switch schools after a year, but at least you'll feel better about where you are going to live.

[Maybe it has already been suggested, I just didn't feel like digging through six pages of "you suck, no YOU suck".]

[Detwa]

I'd never move to a foreign country and purchase housing right away. Getting back to suggestions, the thread starter should rent for a year. Live "centrally" as to Metro Detroit - like south Oakland County [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Huntington Woods, Berkley, Oak Park, etc.). Figure out what is best for the family and what the family prefers based on getting used to the area, culture, etc., then look to purchase. The kids may have to switch schools after a year, but at least you'll feel better about where you are going to live.

[Maybe it has already been suggested, I just didn't feel like digging through six pages of "you suck, no YOU suck".]

LOL, nominated for Best Answer. Renting is definitely the best option here, a six-month lease would be ideal for the first year so you can try out two places since you may not like your first choice. But either way, this is your best advice, IMO.

[antongast]

The question wasn't whether it was theoretically possible to attend DPS and learn. The question was whether city schools are comparable to suburban schools, which they aren't.

I thought the question was "I'm moving here from Sweden, where should I live?" If I'm Mr. Swedish Guy and I need a place to live, the "is DPS a totally viable option or an irredeemable cesspit that will chew up my kids and spit them out" discussion would seem more relevant to my interests than the "how does DPS stack up to Bloomfield Hills in terms of test scores" discussion. Come to think of it, the latter discussion is really only relevant to the interests of federal education bureaucrats and people trying to prove each other wrong on DetroitYes.

[jdayer]

Wow, did you get a lot of replies, mostly arguing which is actually a major activity in the Detroit area. I have lived in Detroit, in some of the worst neighborhoods and for the most part they really are not that bad. For example I used to walk to work through Herman's Gardens which is notorious in the Detroit area even though the housing project was torn down. I don't suggest you do that, I'm a pretty big guy.

I have lived in Oakland, Wayne and Macomb counties. I'm an engineer and I have worked with NASA and my last position before becoming disabled was at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I have managed projects. Since you are an engineer you know it is often much easier to stomp on something than be constructive. Detroit has good and bad points and you have seen some in this thread.

There is a lot to be said for some of the neighborhoods and schools in the city of Detroit, good and bad. Royal Oak is pretty much "yuppie" central and that can be good and bad. I will use it as an example, but, don't think Royal Oak is "alone".

Truth is there is a lot of bigotry and very strong opinions in the tri-county Detroit area. The Downtown Detroit People Mover is a perfect example. It is a very small, segregated, mass transit system, kind of like a dog chasing it's tail in a tiny circle. Detroit tried to involve the suburbs in a mass transit system but the suburbs refused claiming they didn't want criminals coming from Detroit.

Not a lot of people are criminals in Detroit but the suburbs took up a "keep them all out" attitude which is a big reason why there is really bad public transportation. Royal Oak is just down Woodward, one of the major "spokes" of the city of Detroit. Don't look for good mass transport from Royal Oak to the inner city. I used to take that bus line and I had to walk quite a few blocks to make it happen. There should be trains in all the spokes connecting the suburbs with the city.

It is a principle of both economics and anthropology that industrialization follows urbanization and by segregating the major urban center in Michigan the state literally cut it's own economic throat. Very sad for Michigan.

When the Detroit area has real mass transit we will know the segregationist attitude in Michigan is really dying. Until then, expect to run into people who are not very nice where ever you live and expect to listen to a lot of dumb excuses about why Detroit is segregated the way it is.

My suggestion is that where ever you locate, make it close to a major freeway. I suggest the western suburbs off of 94, 96 or M14. M14 and 96 are quick routes from the western neighborhoods and suburbs into the city of Detroit. 94 from the eastern neighborhoods and suburbs into the downtown area.

Everything is a balance and it all depends on you and your family. You might want to live in Birmingham, Northville, Gross Pointe. You may want Roseville Park in the city..

I don't know you well enough to make a real suggestion except to use the freeways to select your commute. Stay away from I-75 and 10, that commute sucks. Even 96 and 94 can be pretty bad. Stay away from freeway interchanges because the back-up can be bad so don't plan of going from 696 to 75 or I94. M14 to 96 is different because it is not really an interchange, just a straight shot. 275 to 96 or 94 sucks for the most part.

Detroit is a great place for an engineer, there are so many great engineers here doing really great, cutting edge stuff. Ignore the arguing for a while and then form your own opinions. A lot of us have learned to reject ideas and not people so we can disagree and still be friendly.

[Bham1982]

I thought the question was "I'm moving here from Sweden, where should I live?" If I'm Mr. Swedish Guy and I need a place to live, the "is DPS a totally viable option or an irredeemable cesspit that will chew up my kids and spit them out" discussion would seem more relevant to my interests than the "how does DPS stack up to Bloomfield Hills in terms of test scores" discussion.

I totally disagree.

Your "either or" scenario is absurd. Obviously nothing is that black or white. There is no answer to your DPS "either or" scenario.

I only brought up test scores, because many folks kept claiming that Chrysler was a high performing DPS school, which it isn't.

If the question is where should someone with a family live, then Detroit will be at the bottom of the list for 99.9% of relocating folks, and that's largely because the schools suck. Low school scores are part of the suckage, but it's the tip of the DPS iceberg.

Now obviously someone can move from Sweden and be perfectly fine with their children in DPS. But most parents choose the lowest risk, highest reward options for their children. Children aren't science experiments or social statements.

[Zacha341]

Yes, specific to the topic a short-term lease is the move. I have a friend who just did with a studio he leased. If things don't work out and he has a break-in he can get out by signing a short-term lease. That is the move indeed!

LOL, nominated for Best Answer. Renting is definitely the best option here, a six-month lease would be ideal for the first year so you can try out two places since you may not like your first choice. But either way, this is your best advice, IMO.

[Zacha341]

Umm, I live here and I can see how/ why some would have reservations about DPS, especially as it is a work in 'progress' or 'digress' depending on which school and what grade level you are seeking for your particular child.

here is my guess;

85% of negative replies to this thread [[saying not to move to Detroit) are by people who don't even live here and 100% of those who say you shouldn't send your kids to Detroit Public Schools, don't have any kids in DPS

Keep generalizing ignorant ones...

[Zacha341]

I hear you. When you are single you can approach things differently. You have to think about your kids first, always!

After reading everyone's posts, I guess I would have to say I am feeling discouraged about moving to Detroit. In particular, I am worried about safety and whether my boys would be safe in a public school as they got older. I understand they would stand out as Swedes, but do you think they would have a tough time of it as they progressed into middle school and high school? [[they are currently 5 and 7.). Are there any issues with foreigners or foreign kids being mistreated?

[antongast]

Your "either or" scenario is absurd. Obviously nothing is that black or white. There is no answer to your DPS "either or" scenario.

That's my point. This whole thread is absurd, and I'm not the one who made it that way.

I only brought up test scores, because many folks kept claiming that Chrysler was a high performing DPS school, which it isn't.

Please see my comment about education bureaucrats and people trying to prove each other wrong on DetroitYes [[specifically the second half, if you're confused about that).

If the question is where should someone with a family live, then Detroit will be at the bottom of the list for 99.9% of relocating folks, and that's largely because the schools suck. Low school scores are part of the suckage, but it's the tip of the DPS iceberg.

Yes, it's theoretically possible to send your child to any public school in the nation and get a good education. The biggest factors in academic achievement come from home life.

I don't know if either, neither, or both of these statements are correct, but if both of them are, then it would seem that the decisions being made by "99.9% of relocating folks" are less than 99.9% objective. Which I guess isn't an astonishing revelation or anything, but I think it explains a large part of the disconnect in this thread.

[canuck]

There is so much misinformation about living in Detroit on this thread its really quite amusing to those of us who live in good neighborhoods,, Ofcourse there are many awful places to live in the city, you would have to be blind not to notice , but like anyone moving to any city, you do your research and tour. So many of these comments are from people who dont live in the city , or when they did, lived unfortunately in an area that wasnt good or turned bad,, There are several who are great,, Once again we recommend our neighborhood, Lafayette Park, the people moving in , are as good as the people moving out,, The locale is wonderful for city amenties the suburbs do not offer, You can walk everywhere or if you drive , very close [[ Entertainement, The arts, Pro Sports, Greektown, Casinos, Excellent theater, Opera, The river front, Canada minutes away,50 good restaurants, The DIA, Eastern Market and on and on , If you want suburban mall shopping your 20 minutes from any east , west or north mall, When I lived in Huntington Woods for three years, I was 20 minutes away with traffic from malls , its no big deal , Our area is quite safe,, like any city dweller in any city , you have to be wise but this is not rocket science. Many people who do not like DPS choose private schools, They say the price of real estate is less so they can afford the school costs, but that is up to the individual. I have had a place downtown since 1988, a and have only lived away for three years once in the suburbs and believe me, and any one who has lived here for a long time, The downtown is at its best in the time I have been here by a long shot,, I do not get mugged when I run in the mornings down Rivard all along the river front , When I walk around the city every day downtown I do not get gunned down , I do get asked for money but Im used to that in Cleveland, Toronto, Chicago and Windsor which I all visit very often for many reasons so for that matter its par for the course. If you need impressions on the city, ask people who live there for a long time, most will be very honest and we do not feel trapped to live here by any means. Every time I have a party there are many people from the suburbs who attend who keep telling me they had no idea our area existed and how much they liked it.. I keep scratching my head, and keep scratching. I would investigate anything and not take peoples work who dont even live there. Royal Oak and Ferndale are great places as are Birmingham and Dearborn and Grosse Pointe but they all have their own strengths and for my own preferences, none of them offer the feel and the social amenities that a large urban city does, nor do I see the diversity I see in our area. IT all boils down to how you want to live and what excites you and makes you happy, Maybe these other areas offer what you want, but for gosh sakes, I wish some of you would stop trashing Detroit as if its all a garbage dump, you really dont know what you are talking about. You dont even live in our area. Come down to our neck of the woods if you dont believe us.

You are inordinately right Bill, Detroit needs to shed the clichés it is creeping under along with the rest of its problems. The idea is not to live under a cloud of denial but rather to recognize what is good and working. How many cities can claim a museum like the DIA and the many other cultural amenities in Detroit? Why should the city always be seen as a once-in-a-blue-moon schooltrip for suburban kids? How can it become more
[[in sub--urban minds) than a trip to the parking lot and a short walk to the stadium or Casino? Why always promote the fear factor which just exacerbates the situation, and further isolates Detroiters from SEM, and insulates the burbans?

I have been hammering on the same nail for a while now, but I find there has to be a major push toward an integrated Detroit with a regional municipality.
In terms of budget, this is the one factor that can help Detroit get funding for renewal. Detroit's depletion in terms of population loss, poverty, and real estate devaluation is severe enough to make it fall even further without a prospect for betterment. The lack of integration which has been the one sad refrain throughout the 20th century needs to change for something more tuneful and upbeat.

The region has to find in itself things to celebrate things unique to Detroit like the birth of the automotive industry and evoke the good and the bad stuff in the history of Detroit without shame. Romans have three thousand years of a rollercoaster story, they have to embrace all of it.

[Zeyrek]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my inquiry about moving to Detroit. After reading everyone's posts and doing quite a bit of research on the Internet I've decided that Detroit isn't the right option for me, despite the job opportunity, and so I will be staying in Stockholm. Detroit seems like it once must have been a fabulous place to live [[apparently it used to be referred to as the Paris of the Midwest) based on the wealth reflected in many of the old buildings, and I hope that it will sort out its many problems and head back in the right direction. People on this forum are proud of their city, and that will be Detroit's biggest asset in getting back to it's old self. Best of luck to all and maybe fate will eventually bring me to the city at some point in the future under the right circumstances.

[ASwede]

Your loss, really!
I'm also from Stockholm, Sweden, and used to live in the Detroit area a while back and totally fell in love with the city. As you probably seen from the replies and your research, there is a complex mixture of great pride in the city, but also a lot of people frustrated and just want to get out. There are a tremendous amount of problems to solve, but also a lot of very good initiatives to get the area back on it's feet. My experience is that most of the horror stories you hear are from people that haven't really lived [[or even been) there. But for sure, there are places you do not want to go to or live in if you are not familiar with them.
I was going to recommend some good documentaries [[of both the good and bad sides to Detroit) and also some nice areas for you, being able to compare to what you are used to from Sweden, but I see I am a few days late. Couldn't help replying anyway.
Unfortunately I don't think Detroit's best side is tourism, so unless you actually live and work there for a while, you probably won't appreciate it.
I do agree the pride of people living in the Detroit area is what will help the city get past it's current problems. Keep up the good work 313! And Go Pistons [[if there ever will be a season....)

[epiphany]

Your loss, really!
I'm also from Stockholm, Sweden, and used to live in the Detroit area a while back and totally fell in love with the city. As you probably seen from the replies and your research, there is a complex mixture of great pride in the city, but also a lot of people frustrated and just want to get out. There are a tremendous amount of problems to solve, but also a lot of very good initiatives to get the area back on it's feet. My experience is that most of the horror stories you hear are from people that haven't really lived [[or even been) there. But for sure, there are places you do not want to go to or live in if you are not familiar with them.
I was going to recommend some good documentaries [[of both the good and bad sides to Detroit) and also some nice areas for you, being able to compare to what you are used to from Sweden, but I see I am a few days late. Couldn't help replying anyway.
Unfortunately I don't think Detroit's best side is tourism, so unless you actually live and work there for a while, you probably won't appreciate it.
I do agree the pride of people living in the Detroit area is what will help the city get past it's current problems. Keep up the good work 313! And Go Pistons [[if there ever will be a season....)

I must say... that I am really getting annoyed by this argument. I am tired of people saying that those that say bad things about Detroit have never lived there... lol. That is ridiculous and so far from the truth. Also, if you fail to recognize that Detroit has problems, then you really are not living in reality. I know plenty of people that have lived and still live in Detroit, and they have had the same experiences as me. I hardly know ANYONE that has not had atleast one car break-in, and the number of people that have had their own apartments broken into is astonishing. Where in Detroit did you live? A $1500 condo with secured parking?

[Eric_c]

I must say... that I am really getting annoyed by this argument. I am tired of people saying that those that say bad things about Detroit have never lived there... lol. That is ridiculous and so far from the truth. Also, if you fail to recognize that Detroit has problems, then you really are not living in reality. I know plenty of people that have lived and still live in Detroit, and they have had the same experiences as me. I hardly know ANYONE that has not had atleast one car break-in, and the number of people that have had their own apartments broken into is astonishing. Where in Detroit did you live? A $1500 condo with secured parking?

With all due respect, because I enjoy reading your posts and about your experiences, I can't help but read about the neighborhoods you've lived in and say to my self, "Well, YEAH! Duh!"

I'm hardly a $1,500 per month condo-dweller with secured parking, though I was at one time and enjoyed the experience. Since 2002, I've lived in a flat or house on a street on both the East and West sides. I've owned in my neighborhood now [[Islandview Village) since 2004 and let me just say, there's not a day that's gone by that I haven't thought about how much I love my neighborhood, neighbors and house! Of course, where I chose to settle was a choice I made after living in town since 1996 and becoming familiar with the city as a whole.

I wouldn't live in Brightmoor or Morningside or "the dales" if you threatened my life. I know what goes on there and wouldn't choose to surround myself by that. At the same time, Rosedale Park/Grandmont, East English Village or Greenacres would interest me.

I feel bad that you've had experiences that were less than satisfactory, but Detroit is a place that requires a little understanding before one can just move someplace and expect milk and honey.

Please don't think I'm criticizing your decisions or anything like that, but with so many wonderful, wonderful communities all over this city, *I'm* getting a little annoyed by those who say there are none.


It's a little like moving to Tensta and then saying all of Stockholm sucks, you know?

[iheartthed]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my inquiry about moving to Detroit. After reading everyone's posts and doing quite a bit of research on the Internet I've decided that Detroit isn't the right option for me, despite the job opportunity, and so I will be staying in Stockholm. Detroit seems like it once must have been a fabulous place to live [[apparently it used to be referred to as the Paris of the Midwest) based on the wealth reflected in many of the old buildings, and I hope that it will sort out its many problems and head back in the right direction. People on this forum are proud of their city, and that will be Detroit's biggest asset in getting back to it's old self. Best of luck to all and maybe fate will eventually bring me to the city at some point in the future under the right circumstances.

Likely story...

[epiphany]

With all due respect, because I enjoy reading your posts and about your experiences, I can't help but read about the neighborhoods you've lived in and say to my self, "Well, YEAH! Duh!"

I'm hardly a $1,500 per month condo-dweller with secured parking, though I was at one time and enjoyed the experience. Since 2002, I've lived in a flat or house on a street on both the East and West sides. I've owned in my neighborhood now [[Islandview Village) since 2004 and let me just say, there's not a day that's gone by that I haven't thought about how much I love my neighborhood, neighbors and house! Of course, where I chose to settle was a choice I made after living in town since 1996 and becoming familiar with the city as a whole.

I wouldn't live in Brightmoor or Morningside or "the dales" if you threatened my life. I know what goes on there and wouldn't choose to surround myself by that. At the same time, Rosedale Park/Grandmont, East English Village or Greenacres would interest me.

I feel bad that you've had experiences that were less than satisfactory, but Detroit is a place that requires a little understanding before one can just move someplace and expect milk and honey.

Please don't think I'm criticizing your decisions or anything like that, but with so many wonderful, wonderful communities all over this city, *I'm* getting a little annoyed by those who say there are none.


It's a little like moving to Tensta and then saying all of Stockholm sucks, you know?

Um, actually, I have had bad experiences around WSU and downtown just the same... downtown is where my car was stolen....... and most of the people that I have known that have had their cars broken into or stolen were living in the WSU area. This is where the majority of people I know lived when their places were broken into, also. Comparatively speaking, WSU, downtown, eastern market, etc. are great neighborhoods... but, they still have serious problems that absolutely should not be discounted, especially when someone is on here talking about bring their CHILDREN AND WIFE to the city to live. Get real.

[epiphany]

With all due respect, because I enjoy reading your posts and about your experiences, I can't help but read about the neighborhoods you've lived in and say to my self, "Well, YEAH! Duh!"

I'm hardly a $1,500 per month condo-dweller with secured parking, though I was at one time and enjoyed the experience. Since 2002, I've lived in a flat or house on a street on both the East and West sides. I've owned in my neighborhood now [[Islandview Village) since 2004 and let me just say, there's not a day that's gone by that I haven't thought about how much I love my neighborhood, neighbors and house! Of course, where I chose to settle was a choice I made after living in town since 1996 and becoming familiar with the city as a whole.

I wouldn't live in Brightmoor or Morningside or "the dales" if you threatened my life. I know what goes on there and wouldn't choose to surround myself by that. At the same time, Rosedale Park/Grandmont, East English Village or Greenacres would interest me.

I feel bad that you've had experiences that were less than satisfactory, but Detroit is a place that requires a little understanding before one can just move someplace and expect milk and honey.

Please don't think I'm criticizing your decisions or anything like that, but with so many wonderful, wonderful communities all over this city, *I'm* getting a little annoyed by those who say there are none.


It's a little like moving to Tensta and then saying all of Stockholm sucks, you know?

Also, I thought that I made it clear... I have lived ALL OVER DETROIT. Crime is still ridiculously higher than other cities. This ain't Chicago, don't act like it is. This is not a city where there are good and bad areas, there truly IS CRIME EVERYWHERE.

Also, I was just looking at rent costs in better neighborhoods in Chicago [[where I have spent time and felt comparatively safe) and it is ridiculous how much more expensive it is to live in less safe areas of Detroit... frankly, this whole defending Detroit thing boggles my mind. If you have 1500 for rent you could be living in a sweet place in a real city with real city amenities. Detroit rent is so freaking inflated that it is disgusting.

[buzzman0077]

As a response to epiphanys statements. For those of us who spend over a $1000 a month for rent. There is no other community in metro-detroit that offers me all the oppertunities that living in Dertroit offers. It is precisely because I can afford to live where ever I want that I live in Detroit.

I grew up in on one of the often remarked good subarbs [[blocks from downtown Plymouth), and in most ways it was a great childhood. It did significantly lack diversity and cultural oppertunities. Also although downtown was very walkable and being close helped anywhere else outside of the small suburban downtowns are not pedestrian friendly or safe. You are required to own a car to function and most things are not within walking distance unless you like walking 2-3 miles minimum each way. Also you are more likely to die in a car accident or pedestrian vs car accident in the subarbs than you are to be a victim of violent crime in the city.

I have loved every bit of the last three years I have lived in the city. I spent the first two in downtown and have spent the last one in lafeyette park and have never had any problems, and neither has my wife.

[Eric_c]

Yeah, in the almost 16 years I've lived in Detroit, I've never lived Downtown or at WSU, so I'll take your word for it. My experiences, excepting my first few years at The Jeffersonian and Shoreline East, have all just been in better neighborhoods.

[English]

Um, actually, I have had bad experiences around WSU and downtown just the same... downtown is where my car was stolen....... and most of the people that I have known that have had their cars broken into or stolen were living in the WSU area. This is where the majority of people I know lived when their places were broken into, also. Comparatively speaking, WSU, downtown, eastern market, etc. are great neighborhoods... but, they still have serious problems that absolutely should not be discounted, especially when someone is on here talking about bring their CHILDREN AND WIFE to the city to live. Get real.

Just interrupting a regularly scheduled DetroitYES argument to point out that the bolded has always made my teeth hurt. Until I joined DYes in 2003, I had no idea that the majority of outsiders didn't see city dwellers as being as human as they were. Well, yes, I did... but I thought that I was being paranoid.

Thank goodness for the internet, and the online disinhibition effect.

I was a little girl who was born, lived, and grew up in the city. I was the daughter of a two-parent home, and the grandchild, niece, and cousin of a network of two-parent homes. Then, I was a young lady in my 20s who lived in the city. Now, I'm an older professional single woman in my mid-30s... who still lives in the city.

I just think it's really offensive when people here talk about the city being too horrible for women and children to live in. Either you don't see inner-city Detroiters as people OR your social justice compass is completely screwed up. If it's not good enough for your wife and children, then dammit, it shouldn't be good enough for anyone else unless you're just a self-interested bastard who believes that children you're not genetically related to and women whom you see as Other are not really deserving of protection. No one is saying that you have to live here, but at least be honest about why you don't.

It's the same thing that always annoyed me about the whole "Nobody lives in Detroit/No one lives in Detroit anymore" angle, when more people live in Detroit than any other place in the state. Or the rhetoric that calls our mentally ill homeless people as "zombies" as if we're in an episode of the Walking Dead, and there is some supernatural explanation for the structural poverty, racism, and classism that has caused so many men and women to wander our streets. Or the characterization of violent criminals in Detroit as "animals," as if incredible wickedness isn't part of our species, too.

No, I think that the problem is, and has always been, that some people simply do not wish to live next door to black and brown people because they see themselves as different AND better. That's fine. Really, it is. What I don't get is why people won't just admit it.

Just ADMIT it. Don't get angry or defensive. I think I respected our ancestors' generations more because at least you knew what you were getting with them. "I don't want to live next door to black people unless they're like Oprah, Will Smith, and Obama... and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't feel very comfortable being the only white people on my block." I respect people who are self-reflective and honest about their motivations. Everyone does.

Back to your regularly scheduled sparring.

[English]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my inquiry about moving to Detroit. After reading everyone's posts and doing quite a bit of research on the Internet I've decided that Detroit isn't the right option for me, despite the job opportunity, and so I will be staying in Stockholm. Detroit seems like it once must have been a fabulous place to live [[apparently it used to be referred to as the Paris of the Midwest) based on the wealth reflected in many of the old buildings, and I hope that it will sort out its many problems and head back in the right direction. People on this forum are proud of their city, and that will be Detroit's biggest asset in getting back to it's old self. Best of luck to all and maybe fate will eventually bring me to the city at some point in the future under the right circumstances.

Godspeed and the best of luck to you. Come and visit us someday.

[Lowell]

It's the same thing that always annoyed me about the whole "Nobody lives in Detroit/No one lives in Detroit anymore" angle, when more people live in Detroit than any other place in the state. Or the rhetoric that calls our mentally ill homeless people as "zombies" as if we're in an episode of the Walking Dead, and there is some supernatural explanation for the structural poverty, racism, and classism that has caused so many men and women to wander our streets. Or the characterization of violent criminals in Detroit as "animals," as if incredible wickedness isn't part of our species, too.

No, I think that the problem is, and has always been, that some people simply do not wish to live next door to black and brown people because they see themselves as different AND better. That's fine. Really, it is. What I don't get is why people won't just admit it.

Just ADMIT it. Don't get angry or defensive. I think I respected our ancestors' generations more because at least you knew what you were getting with them. "I don't want to live next door to black people unless they're like Oprah, Will Smith, and Obama... and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't feel very comfortable being the only white people on my block." I respect people who are self-reflective and honest about their motivations. Everyone does.

It will be difficult for those to admit something when they are incapable of understanding it, no matter how clearly you spell it out.

It is just another burden the City of Detroit will have to bear, along with some other cities like Highland Park where I spent 30 years futilely trying to explain that the big majority of people are good, that I had the best neighbors one could hope for, and that the most dangerous threat I faced was driving a car. After a while, you pick up the cues and code-speak [the people are moving out... the people are moving back] in the first sentences and just change the subject because you can be pretty certain they simply will never be capable of learning that everything and everybody isn't the same every place.

[epiphany]

Just interrupting a regularly scheduled DetroitYES argument to point out that the bolded has always made my teeth hurt. Until I joined DYes in 2003, I had no idea that the majority of outsiders didn't see city dwellers as being as human as they were. Well, yes, I did... but I thought that I was being paranoid.

Thank goodness for the internet, and the online disinhibition effect.

I was a little girl who was born, lived, and grew up in the city. I was the daughter of a two-parent home, and the grandchild, niece, and cousin of a network of two-parent homes. Then, I was a young lady in my 20s who lived in the city. Now, I'm an older professional single woman in my mid-30s... who still lives in the city.

I just think it's really offensive when people here talk about the city being too horrible for women and children to live in. Either you don't see inner-city Detroiters as people OR your social justice compass is completely screwed up. If it's not good enough for your wife and children, then dammit, it shouldn't be good enough for anyone else unless you're just a self-interested bastard who believes that children you're not genetically related to and women whom you see as Other are not really deserving of protection. No one is saying that you have to live here, but at least be honest about why you don't.

It's the same thing that always annoyed me about the whole "Nobody lives in Detroit/No one lives in Detroit anymore" angle, when more people live in Detroit than any other place in the state. Or the rhetoric that calls our mentally ill homeless people as "zombies" as if we're in an episode of the Walking Dead, and there is some supernatural explanation for the structural poverty, racism, and classism that has caused so many men and women to wander our streets. Or the characterization of violent criminals in Detroit as "animals," as if incredible wickedness isn't part of our species, too.

No, I think that the problem is, and has always been, that some people simply do not wish to live next door to black and brown people because they see themselves as different AND better. That's fine. Really, it is. What I don't get is why people won't just admit it.

Just ADMIT it. Don't get angry or defensive. I think I respected our ancestors' generations more because at least you knew what you were getting with them. "I don't want to live next door to black people unless they're like Oprah, Will Smith, and Obama... and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't feel very comfortable being the only white people on my block." I respect people who are self-reflective and honest about their motivations. Everyone does.

Back to your regularly scheduled sparring.

I am not an "oustider" to the city. Stop with that nonsense. I am happy that nothing bad has happened to you, but I have had a string of negative experiences and know others that have had the same experiences. DO NOT pull the race card on me, you are talking to the wrong person. I have no problem living next to anyone as long as they aren't selling drugs or harassing me the moment that I walk out of my door. In my experience living in Detroit, this is regularly the case. How would you like it if you couldnt walk outside without being harassed by a group of dudes sexually harassing you? How would you like it if you moved here and had your car stolen? How would you like it if you couldn't walk down the street [[in a "good" part of the city) without people telling you to get the fuck out of their neighborhood because you aren't the right color? How would you like it if you have been poor your entire life, but get treated like crap because people assume that you are "too rich" to be in Detroit even though you live in poverty? Just because of the color of your skin?

This nonsense needs to stop. I say that there are problems because I have had problems, and color doesn't have a THING to do with my problems. My problem is that my car got stolen, I can't find full-time work, and I generally get treated like a piece of meat by the majority of dudes in the city if I am alone.

[epiphany]

Just interrupting a regularly scheduled DetroitYES argument to point out that the bolded has always made my teeth hurt. Until I joined DYes in 2003, I had no idea that the majority of outsiders didn't see city dwellers as being as human as they were. Well, yes, I did... but I thought that I was being paranoid.

Thank goodness for the internet, and the online disinhibition effect.

I was a little girl who was born, lived, and grew up in the city. I was the daughter of a two-parent home, and the grandchild, niece, and cousin of a network of two-parent homes. Then, I was a young lady in my 20s who lived in the city. Now, I'm an older professional single woman in my mid-30s... who still lives in the city.

I just think it's really offensive when people here talk about the city being too horrible for women and children to live in. Either you don't see inner-city Detroiters as people OR your social justice compass is completely screwed up. If it's not good enough for your wife and children, then dammit, it shouldn't be good enough for anyone else unless you're just a self-interested bastard who believes that children you're not genetically related to and women whom you see as Other are not really deserving of protection. No one is saying that you have to live here, but at least be honest about why you don't.

It's the same thing that always annoyed me about the whole "Nobody lives in Detroit/No one lives in Detroit anymore" angle, when more people live in Detroit than any other place in the state. Or the rhetoric that calls our mentally ill homeless people as "zombies" as if we're in an episode of the Walking Dead, and there is some supernatural explanation for the structural poverty, racism, and classism that has caused so many men and women to wander our streets. Or the characterization of violent criminals in Detroit as "animals," as if incredible wickedness isn't part of our species, too.

No, I think that the problem is, and has always been, that some people simply do not wish to live next door to black and brown people because they see themselves as different AND better. That's fine. Really, it is. What I don't get is why people won't just admit it.

Just ADMIT it. Don't get angry or defensive. I think I respected our ancestors' generations more because at least you knew what you were getting with them. "I don't want to live next door to black people unless they're like Oprah, Will Smith, and Obama... and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't feel very comfortable being the only white people on my block." I respect people who are self-reflective and honest about their motivations. Everyone does.

Back to your regularly scheduled sparring.

Seriously, fuck that comment. Your viewpoint offends me more than anything. You know who I dont like living around? Ignorant people...and they unfortunately come in all colors.