Veterans Day '67 on Plum Street...

[Al Publican]

I was home on leave from the Marines. I had just finished infantry training at Camp Pendleton and was looking for a good time. I called up a buddy of mine that was home on leave with me; we met on day one at the induction center at Fort Wayne and had gone through San Diego and Pendleton together.

He lived on Poe St. near Ford Hospital, which was a different world from where I grew up on the NE side near Denby. When I picked him up in my father's car, he was surprised that I was wearing my forrest green Marine uniform. He wore civies saying he didn't wanted to be hassled by hippies.

I figured wearing my uniform might help in getting some ass and grass. My buddy thought I was crazy when I went up to hippie chicks and asked if they had any grass. None of the gals seemed to mind my approaching them for weed. A few wanted to know about my uniform and one gal asked if she could buy my blouse [[what Marines call their uniform coat; sort of whack, aye?)

We took in the Plum Street scene near where the Lodge Freeway goes under Bagley in downtown Detroit. We stuck our heads in a few of the head shops and coffee houses and sat down in one coffee house and asked for beer. No beer, we were told. Coffee, tea, or herbal tea only. We were under 21 and without fake ID, so it didn't matter that the place was dry.

No one hassled us on Plum Street. If anything, my uniform drew some attention and a bit of sympathy when I mentioned that we were shipping out for Vietnam in a few weeks. Never did get any ass or grass on Plum Street. The hippie chicks seemed exotic to me as did the smell of incense mixed with coffee aroma. I thought about going back to Plum Street in civies but never did.

In Dec 68 when I returned to Detroit from VN, I was 19 but had military ID that said I was 21, thanks to fella in a S-1 office who I told that I lost my ID card in the field in VN [[which was true). He never bothered to check my service record when I was rotating back to the states, so I had my underage drinking pass on hand when I returned home.

By Christmas '68, several folks said while I was home on leave that Plum Street was nowheresville, on its last leg. An online search on Plum Street says it had 43 businesses at its height--head shops, coffee houses, assorted retail stores--but by 1969 only about ten remained.

Some years later, I was in a head shop when I spotted a .50 caliber round fashioned into a hashish pipe. It did get some use, but the fifty-cal round served largely as a conversation piece for me. When asked where I got it, I sometimes said on Plum Street just to see if they had been there.

Today, Plum Street is just parking lots, and empty ones at that, so I noticed the last time I was back in town. If anyone has photos of Plum Street, especially ones that show people walking around outside, I could dig seeing them.

Curious if any other vets walked around Plum Street in their uniform...

[Detroitnerd]

Plum Street has been turned into the MGM Casino now, yes?

[Al Publican]

A Google map seems to indicate the site of the MGM casino where the counter culture scene once was. I'm thinking Plum St. running west from 3rd St as where the scene was. Is that correct?

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah. Back when it was all parking lots I took a lot of pictures of it. I thought I posted them here, but I haven't been able to find that thread. I saw them the other night, looking through old photos. Maybe I'll post them again.

[MikeM]

A few pictures at the Virtual Motor City:

http://tinyurl.com/7lzp2f8

[Detroitnerd]

Interesting too that, after hearing all those stories about vets being spat upon by hippies and called "baby-killers," that the hippies were cool with you in military dress. I always thought those stories about spitting were canards...

[ferntruth]

Interesting too that, after hearing all those stories about vets being spat upon by hippies and called "baby-killers," that the hippies were cool with you in military dress. I always thought those stories about spitting were canards...

and I beleive that you would be correct. Earlier this year, NPR did a great story on this subject and they came to the same conclusion. There has not been one documented case of any soldier being spit on. My opinion is that it was a last ditch attempt to create support for the war by creating sympathy for the soldiers.

[DetroitPlanner]

I can recall being very young and going to Plum Street with my parents. Al I can remember about the place are stores that sold candy, ice cream, self-dipped candles, and gods-eyes.

[Maof]

I can recall being very young and going to Plum Street with my parents. Al I can remember about the place are stores that sold candy, ice cream, self-dipped candles, and gods-eyes.

me too...guess are folks were kinda hip

[Jimaz]

... stores that sold candy, ice cream, self-dipped candles, and gods-eyes.

Thanks. I had forgotten all about god's eyes.

Everyone knew the soldiers didn't cause the war. The spit claims never did make any sense. Sympathy: definitely, spit: fabrication.

[Pam]

About the spitting myth:

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.

[Mikeg]

About the spitting myth:

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

I too have been inclined over the years to treat those accounts of Vietnam vets getting spit upon as just "myths". Lord knows that these guys were shamefully "used" by both the hawks and doves to further their political agendas [[cf. Congressional testimony about the 1971 "Winter Soldier Investigation" held in Detroit, MI).

However, yesterday while reading a book written by a noted historian, I noticed this personal account on page 141:

In the fall of 1971, I began to teach at Louisiana State University at New Orleans. It was painful to see how much the war had divided our students, who were mostly working-class, over the most important issue of the day. What hurt the most was the way returning veterans were treated. You could spot them immediately on campus because they still had crew-cut hair. Some of the hippies - even in New Orleans, there were many hippies - despised them. Once I saw a woman student with long hair, wearing a T-shirt with no bra, go up to a discharged veteran, spit in his face, and ask, "How many children did you kill over there?"

I would probably have considered his recollection as just more myth-making except for the fact that Ambrose had been such a vocal opponent of the Vietnam War during those years. In 1970 he had been 'invited' to leave his teaching job at Kansas State University for having publicly stated "I'll be goddamned if I'll let that SOB lecture to me on violence" immediately following an on-campus speech by President Nixon.

My take on the issue? I remember clearly the divisions and passions the Vietnam war unleashed in our society - my draft lottery number was 83 and the 'Huntley-Brinkley Report' and the M-60 tank castings being trucked down Van Dyke provided daily reminders. However, I believe that while there were many face-to-face verbal assaults of Vietnam veterans, there were extremely few spitting incidents and their numbers were inflated to mythical proportions.

[Al Publican]

When did Plum Street get rolling as a counter culture scene, in mid '67?

After I got out of the Marines in '70, I became regular at Bob Cobb's bar Cobb's Corner on Cass on the corner of the street where Avalon Bakery is today [[just drew a blank on the street name). Along with Plum Street and Cobb's Corner bar what other biz ventures was Cobb involved in?

I heard that some years after he moved to San Francisco that he was murdered. I vaguely remember Bob as being on the short side with thinish hair and sort of quiet when he was in the bar. I may have spoke with him a handful of times.

The spitting on GIs returning from Vietnam has, indeed, been overcooked and over stated too many times over the years. I've challenge this legend in polite fashion a number of times on veteran online forums. Never once has a vet admitted to punching a spitter or even getting into a shoving match when claiming to have been acosted.

I traveled a number of times in uniform stateside in '69 and ''70 between LAX, Detroit, and Baltimore where I attended the Army intel school at Fort Holabird. The only irritant I ever experienced was from some gung ho civilian in a bar that suggested we killing enough people.

[detroittrader]

In the book "Grit, Noise, and Revolution, The Birth of Detroit Rock 'N' Roll by David Carson there is a small chapter devoted to Plum Street. He wrote "by the fall of 1967, gaslights and trash cans had been installed, and the bustling little area was home to around 40 businesses.It also became home to hippie wannabes and motorcycle gangs" Also talks a bit about how the Fifth Estate headquartered there and opened up a bookstore. I'd love to see pics of that. Anyway, that is a great book for all kinds of reasons, put it on your Xmas or holiday list....lol

http://www.amazon.com/Grit-Noise-Rev.../dp/0472115030

[canuck]

Plum street sounds perfect as far as hippie hangouts go. Plum colored bandanna on a beautiful brunette in a long plum colored maxi skirt and day-glo blouse. Plum.

[DetroitPlanner]

Plum street sounds perfect as far as hippie hangouts go. Plum colored bandanna on a beautiful brunette in a long plum colored maxi skirt and day-glo blouse. Plum.

Don't forget

Hairy Pits
Greasy Hair
Smells like smoke and patchouli
Day glow was not invented yet... but bright tie dye and buckskin were!

[Al Publican]

And the Lions' quarterback at the time was Milt Plum, right? *wink*

[douglasm]

Plum Street was never really a "hippie hangout", the scene was "invented" and didn't grow organically. Basically, it was a block long row of shops with a resturant [[the Wisdom Tooth was upstairs) on one end and a mom and pop grocery on the other. I believe it was "deticated" my Mayor Cavanaugh....with jazz pianist Tom Vaughn providing the entertainment.....in 1966. By 1969 it was about gone. I remember driving around the area in 1971 and it was pretty much deserted.

I believe a fellow named Robert Cobb was the developer of the Plum Street "project", and he had Chicago's Old Town in mind as a model.

[gnome]

Plum Street was never really a "hippie hangout", the scene was "invented" and didn't grow organically. Basically, it was a block long row of shops ...

You bring up a very interesting point about "invented" places. We've seen a few fail: Trapper's Alley, AutoWorld, pedestrian malls in downtowns from Kalamazoo to Lansing and Battle Creek and now we have the New Paradise Valley aka Harmonie Park. I wonder why these planned places fail and organically grown ones prosper. The old warehouse district comes to mind as an area that was hopping 6 nights out of 7 dispite the fact that the area was a little rough.

What is it about planning that planners don't get? Don't mean to poke at out resident civic planners, but you guys must look at these failed experiments and wonder the same thing.

The only successful "invented" place I can recall right now, is the San Antonio Riverwalk. I'm sure there are others ...

[DetroitPlanner]

You bring up a very interesting point about "invented" places. We've seen a few fail: Trapper's Alley, AutoWorld, pedestrian malls in downtowns from Kalamazoo to Lansing and Battle Creek and now we have the New Paradise Valley aka Harmonie Park. I wonder why these planned places fail and organically grown ones prosper. The old warehouse district comes to mind as an area that was hopping 6 nights out of 7 dispite the fact that the area was a little rough.

What is it about planning that planners don't get? Don't mean to poke at out resident civic planners, but you guys must look at these failed experiments and wonder the same thing.

The only successful "invented" place I can recall right now, is the San Antonio Riverwalk. I'm sure there are others ...

How about Campus Martius, the Riverwalk, Dequindre Cut? Those are invented places and had a lot more planner input than private developments like Auto World or Trappers Alley. Look at Eastern Market, that was invented 150 years ago and is still going strong. Many pedestrian malls go like gangbusters. Look at Downtown Disney, Universal Walk, or Lincoln Rd those are successful ped malls. The lakefront in Chicago was developed by a planner. Lincoln, Jackson, and Grant Park seem pretty well used to me. Belle Isle was built by a landscape planner, it draws people despite the fact the city has little money to maintain it.

There are a lot of complicated factors in trying something new. Would you rather have a world full of Super Walmarts?

[boneshaker]

I thought the hippie hangout was Memorial Park in Royal Oak, or Gooselake near Jackson.....

[Al Publican]

douglasm, ya think maybe there might be a Thomas Kinkade-esque painting of Plum Street. Something titled "Polyanna On Plum Street."

[EastsideAl]

I remember as kids me and and a couple of my cousins being driven down Plum St. by my grandfather to "look at the hippies." To his shock and disgust we saw one of my other cousins there hanging out with the longhairs!

As I remember, the scene there was mostly wannabees from Grosse Pointe [[like my cousin) and other suburbs, bikers looking for dope and chicks, and a whole lot of tourists cruising through but definitely NOT stopping. The idea was indeed to manufacture a "hip," but safe, district of older buildings like Old Town in Chicago. But the real hippies and radicals were over by Wayne, in the corridor, and elsewhere.

It failed abysmally, but now the place is full of people 24 hours a day - because it's covered by an enormous casino.

[RaumVogel]

I remember going to a free concert when I was 14. It may have been near Jackson? They had the "Rainbow police" which were there to keep order, but wouldn't arrest anyone for non-violent stuff [[mostly drugs). Does anyone know of these concerts?

[boneshaker]

I remember going to a free concert when I was 14. It may have been near Jackson? They had the "Rainbow police" which were there to keep order, but wouldn't arrest anyone for non-violent stuff [[mostly drugs). Does anyone know of these concerts?

Gooselake.