Speed Trap at Detroit-Redford Border

[ct_alum]

Two other things I thought of while I was out driving in an area with hills and elevated bridges.

Whenever I started downhill, I noticed that my foot was always off the gas and near the brake pedal or even on the brake maintaining speed. Not intentional, just reflex/automatic. Not sure I ever noticed that before.

Second, cops rarely write tickets for the actual measured speed. They always knock some off. So if he wrote it for 60 in a 45, chances are radar actually showed somewhat higher, maybe 65, maybe more.

Check the ticket - The actual speed is written at the top & circled so a**holes who go to court and claim that they weren't doing what they were written for don't get away with it [[usually).

[wolverine]

I'm surprised at your response Wolverine. You lived here in Michigan for a time and yet your response to my post comes off as if you really don't know what the street Telegraph is like. Ok, according to the cop, I was doing 60 in a 45 zone going down hill. Further north from where I got the ticket, Telegraph posts a 50 mile an hour speed limit and people who get ticketed are often doing 60 or better. Again, if I was driving on a straight-away and I got a ticket doing 60 in a 45, I wouldn't complain. Going down hill, I feel differently.

I must have been up Telegraph a hundred times over that particular location. I know very well what it's like and how the brakes work in my car. I also know the speed limit.

Have I sped before? Yes, I have on the freeway when I was young, immature, and didn't realize the risks I put other people in, but never more than 5 over on a commercial street..or "a highway" if you want to call telegraph that. I'm not excusing myself from being irresponsible for breaking the speed limit only a little, but the more you go over, the more stupid you are. Everybody knows you have a better chance of getting busted on a city road because it's easier for a cop to sit in a parking lot or side street.

Slow down and pay your damn ticket. I've been fortunate enough to never get a speeding ticket and only a citation for a prohibited left turn....10 feet from my own driveway. As stupid as it seems, I paid it.

Informing people of speed traps is perfectly okay, and to tell you the truth any police department welcomes this as it gets people to at least slow down for a particular area that may be prone to accidents. I wish you would have stopped at that. But to come onto this site, as an adult, and expect sympathy + expect feedback on how to end enforcement of the law in an area that probably has a risk of accidents is a silly waste of time.

[gnome]

well said Wolverine.

[Thames]

Also, regarding merging off of Schoocraft on to Telegraph, if you go north you have an extra lane added to the rest of the lanes. If you go south there are two lanes added up to Glendale. In either direction, unless you are trying to make an immediate left [[like turning left at Glendale), you will not run into any speeding traffic coming down that hill. Given the fact that Telegraph has four lanes on each side, it would take awhile to merge left from the farthest right lanes at any time, regardless of others speed.

EXACTLY! It takes a while. You get to lane three and all of a sudden, here comes some asshole flying off the crest of the bridge, and I'm only doing 45!

Your statement about cars flying off of that bridge when you turn onto Telegraph from Schoolcraft doesn't make sense because those cars don't impede your access to merging onto Telegraph.

I beg to differ. As stated above. I wish people would slow down coming off that bridge.

[Gannon]

I dunno. If speed limits, their observation by both civilians and police officers, and subsequent enforcement were actually consistent...we'd not be having this conversation.

I drove over to the east side today...got on I-94 and drove the speed limit to 10 Mile Road. Suffered some of the judgement that many dose upon those who choose to not follow the crowd. I was in the far-right-hand lane.

Noticed that 10 Mile Road actually is mostly residential...but it has a FORTY mph limit. Imagine having to leave your driveway every morning, zero to 40 in fifteen feet!

Then I took 11 Mile back to the freeway...and for a while it is a boulevard with much wider sightlines than 10 Mile. Fewer residences. And it is tagged at 35 mph. The guy behind me lost his mind that I was driving the limit, too. It was all he could do to rush around me.

But you can bet your bottom dollar that Eleven Mile road is the money-maker. Didn't someone already say there is an issue on that road?!


I've been all around this issue, driving at top speed from roughly 14 to 34, then exactly the limit [[mostly) since. I enjoy the distinct lack of stress, but miss the adrenaline...which is really addictive. I think it fuels drag-race type communting and even anger-management issues in some. My Livonia Friend is strung out on his own adrenaline often, and is always chasing after the next horsepower bump for his sleeper Corvette-killing Subaru wagon.


I've watched the population steadily speed more and more, and the lack of tolerance for anyone who dares wander in one's path...ten years ago the CA driver's handbook had THREE pages of definition for road rage. All the while, the car companies have given 'what the people wanted'...more and more horsepower.

Have a friend who keeps his old Porsche 944 turbo...which was a great vehicle back in the day. He offered it to me for a song, back when I had the Audi...because he knew I'd actually use it. It took me only a moment to realize my station wagon could outperform it in every way...there was no reason to add this old dream car to my collection. [[funny to think about it now, since I've renounced pretty much all of that passion for automobiles and other 'things')



But the point is...the equation is fixed. We have 'toys' which allow more and more of us to blatant bad, and anti-social behavior. Law enforcement has 'tools' which enable them to very precisely nab, very selectively, anyone they wish to target. NOW, every level of government needs money...and this is one of the few 'taxations' which is a gimme for them. Period. It is a gimme cash grab...under the guise of protecting us from ourselves...where holier-than-thous can stand on a pedestal and preach to others that they deserved the selective taxation because of the risk they put the rest of us in due their behavior.

That is bullshit.


If speed killed, I would be dead a hundred times. Maybe thousands. I have driven every vehicle I've ever had up to their top speed. Most of that has been on the open road, but I did my share of idiotic maneuvers throughout my life. I can remember them all, if I tried. Only once was I part of an accident because of my speeding, and that very early in life.


While I adhere to the speed limit now, and take great glee when someone decides to chastise me for obeying the law...I was far on the other side of this coin for most of my life. Would I rather law enforcement be used to bring down the overall speed of traffic, absolutely. Should it be the way they are doing it NOW?! Absolutely not.

The whole damn thing is screwed up...and that is probably why I simply have checked out of it all, and you'll find me in the right-hand lane exactly at the speed limit...saying 'watch me not care how fast you want to drive'.

Most often when some jerk passes me like I'm standing still...although I'm driving at the limit...I'll hope, wish, and pray for justice up the road for them. On the drive home from my errands to the mile roads and back, one young fellow in a Mustang did just that, on Outer Drive a half mile from Mack. He passed me doing roughly double my speed...but was lucky, like I used to be.


Cheers!

[royce]

I must have been up Telegraph a hundred times over that particular location. I know very well what it's like and how the brakes work in my car. I also know the speed limit. <BR><BR>Have I sped before? Yes, I have on the freeway when I was young, immature, and didn't realize the risks I put other people in, but never more than 5 over on a commercial street..or "a highway" if you want to call telegraph that. I'm not excusing myself from being irresponsible for breaking the speed limit only a little, but the more you go over, the more stupid you are. Everybody knows you have a better chance of getting busted on a city road because it's easier for a cop to sit in a parking lot or side street. <BR><BR>Slow down and pay your damn ticket. I've been fortunate enough to never get a speeding ticket and only a citation for a prohibited left turn....10 feet from my own driveway. As stupid as it seems, I paid it.<BR><BR>Informing people of speed traps is perfectly okay, and to tell you the truth any police department welcomes this as it gets people to at least slow down for a particular area that may be prone to accidents. I wish you would have stopped at that. But to come onto this site, as an adult, and expect sympathy + expect feedback on how to end enforcement of the law in an area that probably has a risk of accidents is a silly waste of time.

Wolverine, if you could hear yourself, the arrogance. "I've only got one ticket in my life." Well, good for you. My point in creating this thread was to get feedback on how to deal with this particular peculiar situation. What's peculiar about this situation you might ask? What's peculiar to me is the fact that a law enforcement agency would deliberately position its officers at the bottom of a decline/outcline and ticket the unsuspecting motorist who's unaware that they have drifted over the speed limit while travelling downhill. I think it's unethical and unfair for the Reford police to do this, and they do this in two locations. I was seeking suggestions from forumers on ways to fight the ticket but more importantly how to fight this practice which I think is unethical and unfair. Gannon and others have giving me good suggestions on how to deal with the situation. What has Wolverine given me? Responses like, "slow down and pay your damn ticket and for an adult to come on to this site seeking sympathy...." I'll pay the damn ticket and I don't think sympathy was what I was looking for.

Many on here have talked about other ''speed traps" and let's face it, they are "speed traps." Anytime a law enforment agency places its officers in a spot where they know they're going to catch someone "unsuspectingly" going over the speed limit is a "speed trap. If that wasn't the case, then most law enforcement agencies would have their officers position themselves in random locations along a stretch of road and not always in the same "gotcha" location. That to me would be the true sense of "fairness." And Wolverine, that's what I'm seeking here, nothing more.

[cramerro]

Here's a twist:

If it's all just a cash grab, how funny would it be if all drivers managed to conspire to drive at the speed limit as a form of political protest against speed traps?

It would hit the offending municipalities in their wallet, depriving them of this revenue stream.

It wouldn't require all drivers to join the conspiracy—only enough to slow down the others. Is this flashmob material?

The irony would be that instead of protesting using civil disobedience, they would be using radical civil obedience. They can't arrest or even ticket anyone for that. LOL!

This is all tongue-in-cheek of course but it might make a good plot for a movie.

I can imagine that [[a) all of the "good" cops [[99%) would love to sit there and watch everyone drive to the letter of the law, [[b) the number of traffic crashes would go down 50%, saving everyone on insurance costs and repairs, and [[c) crime in the communities would go down becuase after 5 minutes of watching the traffic drive perfectly, they could go patrol the residential streets and deter/solve crimes.

I don't have any solid figures, but I'd bet that ticket revenue for basic traffic violations is not the bread-and-butter of police budgets. Sure it might help offset costs but this will not be a doomsday event. And, as I mentioned above, it would actually be great for everyone's quality of life!

[gnome]

I drove that stretch this morning. As a test, I hit the crest of the hill at 45 mph and hit the bottom at 50 mph.

[hhockey]

To me the bottom line is that you where speeding plain and simple. Hill or no hill you are taught to adjust your speed to the conditions so that you are not breaking the law. If we want to talk about how bad the is cop for sitting on the bottom of a hill and how unfair it is, how about all those who have a radar detector to out fool the cops?

[bartock]

The hill on Woodward below I-696 is way worse for speed traps.

[Gannon]

I drove that stretch this morning. As a test, I hit the crest of the hill at 45 mph and hit the bottom at 50 mph.

That was my result on the Mack bridge, too...35 up to 40...a five-mile-per increase.

[Gannon]

The hill on Woodward below I-696 is way worse for speed traps.

That one guy used to sit 'just' past the bridge, in the shadow, so you'd not see him until it was too late. But I haven't seen ANY cops on that in years...curious.

The one that shocked me the most was the one on southbound I-75 between Eleven Mile and I-696...the cop was up the hill a bit, on foot, with his laser pointed at traffic. When I first saw him, I thought it was someone shooting at traffic.

It wasn't until I passed him, and saw his seven buddies...three busy and four waiting on that on-ramp...that I realized what he was doing. But it really rattled me...


Sincerely,
John

[Meddle]

I saw MSP and some local agencies do that on I-94 out around Benton Harbor one time. The guy with the radar was sitting on a bridge; you never saw him unless you looked in your rear view mirror. Come over the next hump in the road and there must have been 10 or 15 units in the median lined up to take the next target one at a time. A little further down the road, you found another 4 or 5 units on the shoulder with their victims.

[Jimaz]

...how about all those who have a radar detector to out fool the cops?

Those won't save you in any particular case but they're good for building up [[over time) a sense of where the speed traps usually are. Once you know that, you can adjust speed accordingly in those areas.

[220hendrie1910]

Downriviera wrote:

Not just speed traps in this area. Try getting onto Hines Drive at Telegraph and Ann Arbor Trail. You get off Telegraph and head east on Ann Arbor Trail where the entrance to Hines is about a block or so away. You turn left onto the road that takes you down to Hines and bam, theres a cop there ticketing you for no left turn. They have a very small sign on the corner, nothing on the street or above, warning you of no left turn. If a truck or van is there it will block your view of the sign. The only other way to get down to Hines here is to continue east on Ann Arbor Trail into what is a residential neighborhood and turn around and head back. No easy way to turn around though. Why would they want traffic going into the neighborhood then turning around. And if they don't want people entering Hines here then why not close the access road. Big money maker here.

Never mind a truck or van - all it takes is a fuzzy-headed guy on the sidewalk: http://g.co/maps/k5ydw

[antongast]

That one guy used to sit 'just' past the bridge, in the shadow, so you'd not see him until it was too late. But I haven't seen ANY cops on that in years...curious.

They still do that, all the time. It's not just one guy, either, the Pleasant Ridge cops do it going south and the Royal Oak cops going north. If you haven't seen them, you probably either don't drive through there very often or you're not looking that hard.

[wolverine]

Wolverine, if you could hear yourself, the arrogance. "I've only got one ticket in my life." Well, good for you. My point in creating this thread was to get feedback on how to deal with this particular peculiar situation. What's peculiar about this situation you might ask? What's peculiar to me is the fact that a law enforcement agency would deliberately position its officers at the bottom of a decline/outcline and ticket the unsuspecting motorist who's unaware that they have drifted over the speed limit while travelling downhill. I think it's unethical and unfair for the Reford police to do this, and they do this in two locations. I was seeking suggestions from forumers on ways to fight the ticket but more importantly how to fight this practice which I think is unethical and unfair. Gannon and others have giving me good suggestions on how to deal with the situation. What has Wolverine given me? Responses like, "slow down and pay your damn ticket and for an adult to come on to this site seeking sympathy...." I'll pay the damn ticket and I don't think sympathy was what I was looking for.

Many on here have talked about other ''speed traps" and let's face it, they are "speed traps." Anytime a law enforment agency places its officers in a spot where they know they're going to catch someone "unsuspectingly" going over the speed limit is a "speed trap. If that wasn't the case, then most law enforcement agencies would have their officers position themselves in random locations along a stretch of road and not always in the same "gotcha" location. That to me would be the true sense of "fairness." And Wolverine, that's what I'm seeking here, nothing more.

Arrogant? Really? For saying I keep within reasonable speed? How can I be arrogant when I also admitted fault at the same time. I admitted being foolish for going over the speed limit before and was going fast, just because I wanted to get to my destination faster. That was the point of me mentioning my ticket, to at least say I've been there. But to try and justify that it was a hill and you couldn't slow down... Look that isn't going to work at the courthouse.

I'd completely understand if you were doing a few over, but 60 mph on a non-rural, urban road is ridiculous.

Yeah speed traps suck..we get it. Who doesn't like them when they are on the receiving end of the ticket, or suddenly come upon them and hit the brakes. That's the point...people hit the brakes and slow down to the speed limit.

It worked didn't it? Are you going to blaze through there again at 60 mph?
Anyway, I'm done with this argument. Sorry you will be inconvenienced by the cost of the ticket. If you win, great job, keep on speeding then. I'm done with this discussion.

[royce]

That was my result on the Mack bridge, too...35 up to 40...a five-mile-per increase.

Thanks, Gannon, for taking a risk to prove a point.

[Gannon]

Good gosh, LOL, 'tweren't so noble a task!

Thanks for the props, but I did the experiment just after I saw the Detroit sting operation on both sides of that Mack bridge...mostly during rush hour, but once eastbound at lunchtime too. When I realized they were serious about continuing their revenue experiment, it dawned on me that acceleration due to gravity would make it too stacked a deck against even the most diligent driver.

Then I realized they were aiming for the crest on Eastbound, but simply could not on the opposite direction because the road has a big curve in it...so from their fake-ass hood-up camoflague IN the McDonald's parking lot they could only tag a car after the curve, more than halfway down the grade.

So, that's when I did my experiment...but there are too many variables to say that two experiments with only a five mile per increase imply that yours is worse. Rolling resistance, transmission gearing, slope...those and more make direct comparisons unavailable.

I've always argued about the 'common knowledge' that the acceptable flow of traffic is five over. If anything, that might be the grace given by the average cop due to speedometer error. Everything could be wrong with some...larger diameter tires, driving that expected +5mph, and then the acceleration due to gravity. All that could have put you at 65 in a blink. I check my own speedometer with those "Your Speed Is" radar signs they put up around schools and on the road under the tarmac at Detroit Metro Airport...that is the only way you can know how exact yours is without paying the guys in Royal Oak on Woodward big money to calibrate it.

New tires versus worn down ones, there is as much as 10% error, and if you've oversized rims and tires...all accuracy of your own speedometer is in doubt. I hadn't thought of that before now.

Cheers,
John

[Ray1936]

I don't know how much radar is used in speeding tickets, but in my time most was done by pacing a car. DPD scout cars had their speedometers calibrated every 60 days at the old MO Garage at Chene and Jefferson. Most checks proved accuracy; I never noted a variance of more than 3 MPH, which was writen on the validation sticker on the dashboard.

For what it's worth, more accidents are caused by improper turns than speeding, by far.

[gazhekwe]

Speaking of speedometer creep, I am on perhaps the third set of tires on my car. I have the car speedometer, and I have a TomTom that gives my speed and what it thinks is the speed limit. When the car says 79 mph [[my cruise target on I-75 up in the north woods), TomTom says 73 mph. I will usually kick cruise up to the TomTom's 79 and then the car says 83. So far, so good. If I see the speed trap, I will usually kick cruise off and coast down a bit. I have put many thousands of miles on the hills up on I-75 through West Branch and up into the UP, and I don't gain more than 5 mph going down without cruise control. Husband will gain 10 or 15 mph going down and yes, he has been caught in a few downhill speed traps. Saying that he was going downhill never helped.