Speed Trap at Detroit-Redford Border

**Ray1936** · November-07-11, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Caught at 60 in a 45 is not a speed trap. Just called speeding.

To be a trap, it should be a setup. Either an unreasonable drop in speed limit for the purpose of catching people, or a 'trap' w/ several motor cars waiting for people doing even 1mph over the limit, or perhaps just unreasonable enforcement.

Otherwise, its just called speeding.

Took the words right out of my mouth. On the sympathy side, though, the amount of fines these days simply amazes me. In the sixties, when I was the "bad guy" handing out the tickets, five over was five bucks, ten over was ten bucks, and fifteen over was.....well, you get the picture. Most other moving violations [[red light, improper turn, etc.) were five bucks. Our motivation back then was simply to reduce hazardous driving and accidents. Revenue was the furthest thing from our minds. Of course, the point system was in place even back then, and the big jolt was higher insurance premiums.

But, Royce, I have to agree with Wesley. 60 in a 45 is just asking for an invitation to the courthouse. Watch that speedometer a little closer. A stalled car at the foot of that ramp could have put you in harm"s way real quick at fifteen over.

[[Postscript: I think that entire stretch of Telegraph is in Redford. The boundry is actually a few feet east of the curb line up to Puritan.)

**Wesley Mouch** · November-07-11, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

If they wanted us to drive safe speeds, they'd do as the CHiPs do...drive the speed limit themselves. Be seen driving safely. I've never seen speed control work like it does on California highways....

That would be far more effective than 'traps', I agree.

So I'd suggest 1) a state highway patrol, and 2) a mechanism to argue against unreasonable speed limits. I don't mean too low -- but for example sudden drops w/o notice, especially as Royce suggests, at the bottom of hills. We all want to reduce gas consumption, no?

**Gannon** · November-07-11, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

[[Postscript: I think that entire stretch of Telegraph is in Redford. The boundry is actually a few feet east of the curb line up to Puritan.)

I went looking on the maps...always thought Redford included the businesses on both sides of T'graph even past Fenkell...but they are not clear at all. I know down by Plymouth, Redford goes all the way to the park. For some reason, I thought they had even that cemetary just south of Grand River!

**Gistok** · November-07-11, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by noggin

I got nailed on the 9 mile exit of Eastbound I-94 on a Sunday morning with no traffic. The exit was under construction and there was a no right turn on red sign camouflaged in nearly 12 construction signs. Not only that, when a car would stop at the white line it was not visible. It is clearly stated in the state statutes it must be visible at the stop mark. It did not matter. St. Clair Shore cop would sit at that corner and write tickets for all victims. It was clear to me this was just a way to generate revenue.

Noggin... when they rebuilt the 9 Mile and 10 Mile bridges over I-94 a few years ago... they did it in such a way that if you had exited the freeway, you could no long have a clear view of the oncoming 9 and 10 Mile traffic. It's as though they purposefully made those intersections a blind spot. The no right turn on red there are a necessity for that reason, but yes... with the plethora of construction signs... it was a wonder anyone had an opportunity to even see the "No Right Turn" sign...

**Scottathew** · November-07-11, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Took the words right out of my mouth. On the sympathy side, though, the amount of fines these days simply amazes me. In the sixties, when I was the "bad guy" handing out the tickets, five over was five bucks, ten over was ten bucks, and fifteen over was.....well, you get the picture. Most other moving violations [[red light, improper turn, etc.) were five bucks. Our motivation back then was simply to reduce hazardous driving and accidents. Revenue was the furthest thing from our minds. Of course, the point system was in place even back then, and the big jolt was higher insurance premiums.

But, Royce, I have to agree with Wesley. 60 in a 45 is just asking for an invitation to the courthouse. Watch that speedometer a little closer. A stalled car at the foot of that ramp could have put you in harm"s way real quick at fifteen over.

[[Postscript: I think that entire stretch of Telegraph is in Redford. The boundry is actually a few feet east of the curb line up to Puritan.)

Yeah, these days with revenue generating fines the motivation can wander from traffic safety to the almighty dollar.

I live in Warren, and there was a cop that made a 60-80 week out of sitting at a service drive exit and nailing service drive traffic for not stopping completely at the stop sign [[right were exiting traffic was merging).

The city did the smart thing changed the STOP sign to a YIELD sign. I wholeheartedly agree with this because I think selective enforcement is dumb. If something doesn't make sense, change the law, and in this case we did.

But back to the cop, he was making BANK in overtime because of having to show up at the courthouse when people fought the tickets. Some local news show edited in a bunch of Warren cops rolling through stops signs, the very infraction this guy was making a living off of.

**Switchmanjim** · November-07-11, 01:24 PM

I'm really not in favor of speed traps but, there SHOULD be one on M-39 south at Warren. The speed limit is 55. I can't tell you how many times I've been driving that highway and every time there are the idiots doing 70 or MORE weaving in and out of traffic, then exiting at Ford Rd. Detroit could make a fortune in fines.

I know, ...Detroit has more important issues...and doesn't have the manpower...etc...etc....

**Scottathew** · November-07-11, 01:35 PM

The speed limit on I-75 south of I-94 is only 55. However, if you actually did 55 MPH Kyle Busch would Busch would send you into the wall.

**hhockey** · November-07-11, 01:49 PM

Royce are you sure he wrote the ticket for the actual offense of speeding? I'm aware of several redford P.D.officers and they normaly write the violation for impeding traffic, with a warning that if you fight the violation they will amend it to the original violation. Being on a hill does not justify 60 mph in 45 zone.

**milesdriven** · November-07-11, 03:08 PM

Just to go court, if your record isn't ridiculous it will be changed to "impeding traffic". This is a local ordinance, and the city gets the money instead of the state. It'll cost an extra $20-$40, but will not show up on your record. Just be glad you didn't get one in Ohio, where all infractions are minor misdemeanors instead of civil infractions, and all charges are read by the prosecutor while the cop is out writing more tickets instead of having to appear in court.

Occurrence · November-07-11, 03:27 PM

I'm also not a big fan of speed traps.

If they are that concerned about "peoples safety", place a couple police cruisers out there in plain view, and I guarantee nobody speeds.

But nahh, they'd rather have the revenue.

**Meddle** · November-07-11, 04:15 PM

I'm not a fan of any citation issued for revenue generation.

**noggin** · November-07-11, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Noggin... when they rebuilt the 9 Mile and 10 Mile bridges over I-94 a few years ago... they did it in such a way that if you had exited the freeway, you could no long have a clear view of the oncoming 9 and 10 Mile traffic. It's as though they purposefully made those intersections a blind spot. The no right turn on red there are a necessity for that reason, but yes... with the plethora of construction signs... it was a wonder anyone had an opportunity to even see the "No Right Turn" sign...

I would of not fought the ticket but it ticked me off on the return trip when I saw the same cop giving a ticket in the same spot. Instead of placing a sign across the street they were more interested in just picking off confused drivers. I went back to take a photo for the court case and they had another driver pulled over. This obviously a predatory cop in action,

**softailrider** · November-07-11, 06:28 PM

Cash grab, pure and simple. They're looking for a way to get into your pocket, been going on for decades.

I would go to court, get it reduced, pay and forget it. it's just something not worth getting upset over, you're not going to win, so what's the point?

**Thames** · November-07-11, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Today I got a speeding ticket coming down hill on the bridge at Telegraph over the Jeffries Freeway [[I-96) heading north. The cop was a Redford Township cop with a radar gun on the east side of Telegraph on a dead-end side street in Detroit. He clocked me doing 60 in a 45 mile zone. Now, I've gotten speeding tickets before, but to get a ticket coming down hill, when the laws of physics would say that a car travelling at the speed limit on a level plane would increase speed on a decline, is preposterous. They also ticket people on a decline on Telegraph just south of 96 at the train viaduct. How does Redford police get away with this crap?

This is one of those times when I not only want to fight the ticket but also fight the practice of Redford police ticketing drivers while coming down a decline. I would also question their jurisdiction to issue speeding tickets when they are positioning themselves in Detroit city limits. What course of action can I take to avoid paying this ticket [[$145) and to also get this speed-trap eliminated?

Fighting that ticket on the reason you've presented here is preposterous.

You admit that you know damn well that your car is going to go faster on a decline. We all know that, and we control the vehicle accordingly. Obviously, you didn't control your vehicle, or you wouldn't have gotten the ticket you're bitching about.

I don't appreciate people flying off that bridge when I'm trying to merge from Schoolcraft. Slow the fuck down.

Thanks!

**wolverine** · November-07-11, 09:34 PM

60 in a 45? Damn. I mean, I can forgive going a little fast on the freeway, but on a commercial street?

Seriously, you deserve it. The place you clocked at the bottom of the hill is where DRIVEWAYS BEGIN. People are pulling out of those driveways from a stopped position, you just make their turn onto this thoroughfare more unpredictable.

After moving out of state, I'm surprised how nice Michigan is to actually post speed limit signs......Instead of the "30 mph everywhere, unless we say otherwise with an occasional sign."

**Jimaz** · November-07-11, 09:41 PM

Here's a twist:

If it's all just a cash grab, how funny would it be if all drivers managed to conspire to drive at the speed limit as a form of political protest against speed traps?

It would hit the offending municipalities in their wallet, depriving them of this revenue stream.

It wouldn't require all drivers to join the conspiracy—only enough to slow down the others. Is this flashmob material?

The irony would be that instead of protesting using civil disobedience, they would be using radical civil obedience. They can't arrest or even ticket anyone for that. LOL!

This is all tongue-in-cheek of course but it might make a good plot for a movie.

**Planner3357** · November-07-11, 11:17 PM

Watch out for the River Rouge police as well. On Schaefer/Coolidge...under the rail bridge by the Conrail yard. They're cool with us because we work for the Railroad....but they will get you. Strictly 25 MPH.

**Don K** · November-08-11, 12:04 AM

What can I say? That area has been a heavy enforcement area for as long as I've had occasion to travel on it [[~ 16 years now).

Another such is Telegraph through Bloomfield Township. I live in Bloomfield, and often see cops hanging out on Telegraph between Hickory Grove and Maple. I don't know whether they have quotas, but if they do I'm sure they can fill them if they just set up on Telegraph once a day just from pulling over people doing 65-70 in the 50 zone.

Here's a hint, folks. This isn't Southfield Road through Beverly Hills, Lathrup Village, and Southfield, where the lights are timed to force you to stop every half mile between 14 Mile and the beginning of the freeway. If you travel 50-55 on this stretch of Telegraph, you will find the lights magically turning green in front of you as you drive along, and you won't have to do a brake check every mile.

**jtf1972** · November-08-11, 12:59 AM

One of the reasons that even when driving on the highway, I tend to be the guy doing 60 in a 70 zone. I think I got the speed-freak out of me when I was young. Now I'm just happy to get there [[would rather have a legitimate public transit system, but...)

As for the whole aspect of how cops are revenue producers, I kinda feel for some of these guys. They should be catching bad guys & protecting law abiding citizens. I doubt too many signed up thinking "I can sit in a car with a radar gun & write tickets all damn day for people who drift over the limit!" That might be part of what the attitude is... If you hate doing it in the first place, the last thing you want is to deal with some idiot trying to beat the ticket. These guys should be on the beat. [[but then we get into the whole sprawl argument too.)

**royce** · November-08-11, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Thames

Fighting that ticket on the reason you've presented here is preposterous.

You admit that you know damn well that your car is going to go faster on a decline. We all know that, and we control the vehicle accordingly. Obviously, you didn't control your vehicle, or you wouldn't have gotten the ticket you're bitching about.

I don't appreciate people flying off that bridge when I'm trying to merge from Schoolcraft. Slow the fuck down.

Thanks!

Thames, I didn't know that expressing my displeasure at getting a ticket concerning what I feel is an unique situation constitutes "bitching." As I admitted earlier in my original post, I have had speeding tickets in the past and over the 32 years that I have been driving , I have never come on this forum to "bitch" about them. Now, I've only been on the forum for seven years, so I guess I could have bitched about the ones I got during this time, but I didn't.

Also, regarding merging off of Schoocraft on to Telegraph, if you go north you have an extra lane added to the rest of the lanes. If you go south there are two lanes added up to Glendale. In either direction, unless you are trying to make an immediate left [[like turning left at Glendale), you will not run into any speeding traffic coming down that hill. Given the fact that Telegraph has four lanes on each side, it would take awhile to merge left from the farthest right lanes at any time, regardless of others speed. Your statement about cars flying off of that bridge when you turn onto Telegraph from Schoolcraft doesn't make sense because those cars don't impede your access to merging onto Telegraph.

**royce** · November-08-11, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

60 in a 45? Damn. I mean, I can forgive going a little fast on the freeway, but on a commercial street?

Seriously, you deserve it. The place you clocked at the bottom of the hill is where DRIVEWAYS BEGIN. People are pulling out of those driveways from a stopped position, you just make their turn onto this thoroughfare more unpredictable.

After moving out of state, I'm surprised how nice Michigan is to actually post speed limit signs......Instead of the "30 mph everywhere, unless we say otherwise with an occasional sign."

I'm surprised at your response Wolverine. You lived here in Michigan for a time and yet your response to my post comes off as if you really don't know what the street Telegraph is like. Ok, according to the cop, I was doing 60 in a 45 zone going down hill. Further north from where I got the ticket, Telegraph posts a 50 mile an hour speed limit and people who get ticketed are often doing 60 or better. Again, if I was driving on a straight-away and I got a ticket doing 60 in a 45, I wouldn't complain. Going down hill, I feel differently.

Ravine · November-08-11, 08:54 AM

Jeez. A physics class? What?

I don't take any pleasure from anyone getting a ticket, but dang.
Do drivers allow gravity to slow them way the hell down, when travelling up-hill, before allowing it to speed them up on the way down-hill?

And, while I'm at it-- which, definitely, I am-- I believe the other side of an incline is not the "decline," but the "outcline."

**Gannon** · November-08-11, 11:46 AM

I'm with you, Jimaz. Been doing that for years...I believe my last ticket was five years ago, and then another five years before that. Big difference from my average of two per year since I was sixteen. Damn lucky I didn't get caught in the years leading up to having my driver's license, too.

That one five years ago was at that Dearborn Heights speed trap on southbound Southfield Freeway, I KNEW the jerk was always hiding out there...and one day I was distracted and wham. Same fucker gave my step-mother a ticket for running a yellow light at that old K-Mart parking lot on Van Born. He can burn in hell for all I care.

That was when I learned that Dearborn Heights built a nice huge adminstrative complex in Michigan Avenue that they had to pay for...and got the impeding traffic scam.

I wondered at the time when the state would notice the increase in impeding traffic violations! Surely it must look like an epidemic by now...so bad that statistically, with all of us impeding things, it is gridlock.

As for the incline/outcline...if one uses cruise control, the decrease in speed caused by the average incline on a bridge is 'just' enough to force the cruise to floor it into the crest of the hill...the delay would not be caught by the freewheeling overdrive automatic transmission that all modern cars now have.

So, just using cruise to maintain speed, to insure one doesn't get swept away with the flow of traffic causes this condition that got Royce his ticket. Yes, I know this will rattle those in the traffic safety camp who've proven that 'going with the flow' is the safest. The flow is driving too fast for too many people now...and costing too many too much with this selective enforcement.

No cheers,
John

**Meddle** · November-08-11, 03:59 PM

Two other things I thought of while I was out driving in an area with hills and elevated bridges.

Whenever I started downhill, I noticed that my foot was always off the gas and near the brake pedal or even on the brake maintaining speed. Not intentional, just reflex/automatic. Not sure I ever noticed that before.

Second, cops rarely write tickets for the actual measured speed. They always knock some off. So if he wrote it for 60 in a 45, chances are radar actually showed somewhat higher, maybe 65, maybe more.

**Gannon** · November-08-11, 04:30 PM

With my old Windstar, you could push a button to turn off the overdrive.

With the current Vue, I merely downshift. I like to get serious miles on a set of brakes, so I try to not use 'em...LOL.

My partner's Saab has a sport mode that will actually downshift itself on the Mack bridge, but you cannot make it the default setting...you've got to remember to push a button on the dashboard. It is the best automatic transmission I've ever used.

I'm not much a fan of automatics, they make drivers into riders.

Cheers