Bing Calls for Emergency Financial Manager

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by river rat

Bailout! Hell no. Detroit needs to declare bankruptcy, because it is. The court needs to appoint a bankruptcy master who will then void all obligations and debts and pay the creditors on a rational basis. Of course, this will mean a lot of pain for a lot of people [[think Greece). The bond holders will get a few pennies on the dollar. The mayor and city council will not be paid and will line up with all the creditors. Everyone will take a big haircut. All the years of financial mismanagement and corruption will fall on the people that deserve it; the electorate of the City of Detroit. We are the ones who elected the buffoons that brought us to where we are. This thread will be replete with screams about the Republicans and inadequate state funding, the economy, the needs of the poor, crime, bad infrastructure, on and on....

The problem is clear and it is us..

Everything you posted looks good but if you think a municipality like Detroit could file for bankruptcy and not get a bailout you need to go back to 2009.

lilpup · November-03-11, 01:09 PM

There would be a huge national pushback against a bailout because most don't know the difference and can't distinguish between the auto companies and the city.

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

There would be a huge national pushback against a bailout because most don't know the difference and can't distinguish between the auto companies and the city.

And this is why Bing as a "leader" have to ignore the pushback and do what's best for Detroit.

**Novine** · November-03-11, 01:38 PM

"But just a bailout won't do it though. They need to fundamentally go through the entire government and eliminate waste, get out businesses they don't belong in, and get fair labor contracts."

Have you ever gone through the city's budget? Most of this stuff is nickle-and-dime budget savings. Some of those departments get federal funding and eliminating them only eliminates services to residents, it doesn't save the city much, if anything ins savings. I'm not going to make the case that anything works well in Detroit city government. It doesn't. But no one can fix a city government like Detroit where the needs of the residents are so great, the level of services needed are so high and the revenues to provide those services are far less than what is needed.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"But just a bailout won't do it though. They need to fundamentally go through the entire government and eliminate waste, get out businesses they don't belong in, and get fair labor contracts."

Have you ever gone through the city's budget? Most of this stuff is nickle-and-dime budget savings. Some of those departments get federal funding and eliminating them only eliminates services to residents, it doesn't save the city much, if anything ins savings. I'm not going to make the case that anything works well in Detroit city government. It doesn't. But no one can fix a city government like Detroit where the needs of the residents are so great, the level of services needed are so high and the revenues to provide those services are far less than what is needed.

Yes, but nickle and dimes add up. I agree that federally funded stuff should stay running. However, it just amazes me how much services cost per resident in Detroit when compared to other cities. Detroit manages to make almost every service more expensive.

**Gistok** · November-03-11, 02:57 PM

I have to partly agree with what Flintoid is saying... it took over 40 years for Detroit to get into this mess... 2 years sure ain't gonna cut it for geting out of it. However, would I want Bing as the EFM... no.

And even voiding all contracts pensions, etc. There's a serious price to pay for that kind of drastic cut for Policemen and Firemen especially... Imagine responding to a "serious" 911 call if you just found out your future pension just went down the toilet. You think response time is bad right now.....

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I have to partly agree with what Flintoid is saying... it took over 40 years for Detroit to get into this mess... 2 years sure ain't gonna cut it for geting out of it. However, would I want Bing as the EFM... no.

And even voiding all contracts pensions, etc. There's a serious price to pay for that kind of drastic cut for Policemen and Firemen especially... Imagine responding to a "serious" 911 call if you just found out your future pension just went down the toilet. You think response time is bad right now.....

The issues that I have with his comments is that some people believe what works with a business can work with a municipality and that is not possible. With a company, a hatchet man can cut and fire and the only people affected are the people who jobs and benefits are at risk. With a municipality, you're talking about thousands of people affected if a EM was to cut services and throw out union contracts.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

With a company, a hatchet man can cut and fire and the only people affected are the people who jobs and benefits are at risk. With a municipality, you're talking about thousands of people affected if a EM was to cut services and throw out union contracts.

I don't see the big differences. My company has thousands of people, and when the economy hit a rough spot our pay was frozen immediately, benefits were trimmed and eliminated [[including all 401k matching), our Cadillac medical plans have gone away, and there was an immediate hiring freeze. We also had a 25% workforce layoff.

However, our company survived and flourished because we adapted quickly.

Government on the other hand is very slow to react. It's locked into union contracts, and even when those contracts are up for negotiation they always want more, regardless of the economy.

The police department needs to be restructured. Get civilians doing civilian jobs. Get cops on the streets.

Keep in mind that CORE SERVICES are the most important. Police and fire, absolute core services. They need to make those services more efficient, and make big cuts to other services including outsourcing where it makes sense.

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

I don't see the big differences. My company has thousands of people, and when the economy hit a rough spot our pay was frozen immediately, benefits were trimmed and eliminated [[including all 401k matching), our Cadillac medical plans have gone away, and there was an immediate hiring freeze. We also had a 25% workforce layoff.

However, our company survived and flourished because we adapted quickly.

Government on the other hand is very slow to react. It's locked into union contracts, and even when those contracts are up for negotiation they always want more, regardless of the economy.

The police department needs to be restructured. Get civilians doing civilian jobs. Get cops on the streets.

Keep in mind that CORE SERVICES are the most important. Police and fire, absolute core services. They need to make those services more efficient, and make big cuts to other services including outsourcing where it makes sense.

I'm sorry, I should have said "hundreds of thousand of residents." Thanks for verifying my point. Companies can go radical. Municipalities can not.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I'm sorry, I should have said "hundreds of thousand of residents." Thanks for verifying my point. Companies can go radical. Municipalities can not.

I agree the service cuts will effect residents. However, the important thing is to strengthen core services through increased efficiency, and to cut non-core services.

The idea is that they should have been doing this all along, and thus having a smaller, more efficient government would be much easier than hacking off the fat while trying not to hit an artery.

If the residents of Detroit so dearly want these services then they need to elect leaders that will either:

1) Fix them
or 2) Raises taxes so the union employees can never be effected by the recession

**iheartthed** · November-03-11, 03:31 PM

Isn't Bing in the midst of a bargaining process with the DDOT union or something like that? He's played this card before...

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

I agree the service cuts will effect residents. However, the important thing is to strengthen core services through increased efficiency, and to cut non-core services.

The idea is that they should have been doing this all along, and thus having a smaller, more efficient government would be much easier than hacking off the fat while trying not to hit an artery.

If the residents of Detroit so dearly want these services then they need to elect leaders that will either:

1) Fix them
or 2) Raises taxes so the union employees can never be effected by the recession

I am sure many Detroiters like myself agree with fixing what is wrong in Detroit but what cost? The mayor and City Council have already cut EVERYTHING to the bone. The only thing left to do is eliminate.

**illwill** · November-03-11, 03:41 PM

Just when Detroit was starting to make a comeback, the ball is about to drop...MAYBE?

If this does happen do you think it'll affect people's decisions to move to the city and especially buy ANYTHING in the city? I was planning on buying and until I know the results and affect of having an EFM, I'll likely hold off.

Detroit seems to always miss the boom by about 20 minutes.

**Det_ard** · November-03-11, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I am sure many Detroiters like myself agree with fixing what is wrong in Detroit but what cost? The mayor and City Council have already cut EVERYTHING to the bone. The only thing left to do is eliminate.

They haven't cut stupid, incompentent, lazy and hostile city employees to the bone. There are plenty left and I seem to encounter them all too often.

Fire two incompentent lay-abouts each earning $35K + benefits, hire one effective employee at $50K + benefits. You've saved money and provided better service to citizens.

**stasu1213** · November-03-11, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Flintoid

You're all being ridiculous. Bing came in with huge deficits, illogical union contracts, and so many departments that were mismanaged that you cant count them all. You expect him to fix that in 2 and a half years?The $9.2 million lost was from decisions in the human services department made prior to January 31. The head of the department at the time, fired by Bing due to incompetence. The mayor has managed to regionalize cobo, regionalize water, cut costs [[sadly not enough yet) and actually begin to craft a plan to govern our city logically. It;s easy for us or council to just sit on the sidelines and monday morning quarterback what is clearly an incredibly hard job, but the fact is every decision is a lot more complicated than the media or council or the unions make it out to be. I would be supportive of a Dave Bing EFM because the city needs someone with that kind of power. We need to be able to change salaries and benefits or privatize services, but you cannot do that with existing contracts. Dave Bing as an EFM would be a blessing. The council can sit on their high horse and pretend that it would be Armageddon, but that's easy to do when you're not the one making the tough decisions. Mayor Bing has done a fantastic job in these two years, and I hope there are many more to come.

Bing has to adopt the philosiphy of his late fellow democrat Harry Truman; "the buck stops here"

lilpup · November-03-11, 05:44 PM

I think if an EFM comes on board a lot of city assets will be shed. Not only will that generate a bit of revenue but the city will also shed the maintenance expenses.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I am sure many Detroiters like myself agree with fixing what is wrong in Detroit but what cost? The mayor and City Council have already cut EVERYTHING to the bone. The only thing left to do is eliminate.

I understand what you're saying, but simply put, it's Detroit's problem. You guys have to balance your budget. As a Warren resident, I don't care how you do that. So you either have to further cut services, or raise your taxes. It's that simple.

Yes, you guys can do the whole screw your creditors thing, but that's not going to solve your issues, because in addition to a large rolling debt, you have annual debt.

I still think there's plenty of room to cut.

**R8RBOB** · November-03-11, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

I understand what you're saying, but simply put, it's Detroit's problem. You guys have to balance your budget. As a Warren resident, I don't care how you do that. So you either have to further cut services, or raise your taxes. It's that simple.

Yes, you guys can do the whole screw your creditors thing, but that's not going to solve your issues, because in addition to a large rolling debt, you have annual debt.

I still think there's plenty of room to cut.

I like your approach. So, if the city was to raise the cost pumping water to the suburbs to let's say double the cost, you would have no issue paying higher water rates? I suppose if we had to raise taxes then the city should increase the water rates claiming that the cost of cleaning and pumping the water out just cost too much.

**softailrider** · November-03-11, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Pugh, who went through bankruptcy, is not who I would go to for budgeting advice, nor would I have voted for him because of his own financial insolvency.

Totally agree, we're suppose to take financial advice from a guy who couldn't get enough credit to buy a salt shaker.

**Novine** · November-03-11, 07:19 PM

"Keep in mind that CORE SERVICES are the most important. Police and fire, absolute core services. They need to make those services more efficient, and make big cuts to other services including outsourcing where it makes sense."

Police and Fire are the most expensive part of almost every city budget. It's as true in Warren as it is in Detroit. You want to cut costs in the city's budget? It means laying off cops and firefighters and slashing the benefits and pensions for those who are left.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I like your approach. So, if the city was to raise the cost pumping water to the suburbs to let's say double the cost, you would have no issue paying higher water rates? I suppose if we had to raise taxes then the city should increase the water rates claiming that the cost of cleaning and pumping the water out just cost too much.

Our rates have been going up 9 and 10% at a time, we're used to increases.

**Scottathew** · November-03-11, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Police and Fire are the most expensive part of almost every city budget. It's as true in Warren as it is in Detroit. You want to cut costs in the city's budget? It means laying off cops and firefighters and slashing the benefits and pensions for those who are left.

If you want to pretend there's no where to cut but police and fire, then fine; but you're wrong. Also, there are HUGE inefficiencies in the police department. Detroit has a HUGE amount of structure. Detroit also has a lot of cops that aren't solving crimes, but sit at desks doing jobs civilians could do. Do they care? Hell no, they're making big money and don't even have to go out there and get dirty.

Novine, keep in mind that if you think there's nowhere else to trim, then that means you're for a tax increase.

The city must balance it's budget. So you either have to spend less, or tax more, or a combination of those two.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-03-11, 08:25 PM

[QUOTE=rb336;282211]the same engler who gave away the state's money to his cronies? who spent us into a major hole his last year in office and set up policies to make it impossible for any successor to succeed? THAT john engler? what are you smoking?[/QUOTE

No, not that John Engler. The Engler that closed near-empty mental hospitals to virtual burnings in effigy. Didn't care that he was hated. It was the only logical step. The Engler that replaced property taxes with sales taxes, which keeps revenues roughly in line with inflation. The Engler who as a young politician enthusiastically backed the Headlee Amendment, which has mercifully prevented Michigan from spending on the scale of New York, Illinois, and California. That Engler.

I only overeat; I smoke nothing.

**stasu1213** · November-03-11, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

If you want to pretend there's no where to cut but police and fire, then fine; but you're wrong. Also, there are HUGE inefficiencies in the police department. Detroit has a HUGE amount of structure. Detroit also has a lot of cops that aren't solving crimes, but sit at desks doing jobs civilians could do. Do they care? Hell no, they're making big money and don't even have to go out there and get dirty.

Novine, keep in mind that if you think there's nowhere else to trim, then that means you're for a tax increase.

The city must balance it's budget. So you either have to spend less, or tax more, or a combination of those two.

The "No Snitch" policy that many of Detroiters have is one of the major reasons that the police and detectives are not solving crimes. That is why the Tamara Greene case was thrown out. I think that some of the cuts that council had made was cuts that an EFM probably would not had made. I don't trust the Mayor and the council on their decisions pertaining to the cuts that were made

**skyl4rk** · November-03-11, 08:53 PM

Harris did a good job as EFM in Benton Harbor. City services are better now than they were before the EFM was appointed, and I think they are out of a deficit position or getting close to it.

Detroit should try an EFM before bankruptcy. I'm not sure one person could do it alone, though, it is a far bigger organization than Benton Harbor.

If Harris gets the Detroit EFM job, I will be cheering him on.