Snyder to propose high-speed bus network to knit Detroit, suburban systems

[Detroitnerd]

Let 'em eat rubber. Nice.

[iheartthed]

C'mon, iheart: Don't make the perfect the enemy of the mediocre status quo!

It just struck me as an odd statement. As far as I know, the only city in the world that has ever implemented it as the basis of their transit system is some small city in Brazil. So unless Curitiba is suddenly the Holy grail of convenient and efficient transit systems, then it must follow that BRT is the new fad... so to speak.

[DetroitPlanner]

I'm guessing that you're implying BRT is the latest fad?

The point I am trying to make is that you need to look at all modes and not be so easy to dismiss one over the other. The number of times I've hear this is staggering "I don't use transit now but I will if you build light rail...." is staggering. It makes me question sincerity or if they have ever rode transit. I do however know that there are thousands of metro Detroiters that are reliant on the transit system to get to work, school, or to doctors appointments. We should build a system that meets the needs of the most neediest, but also is attractive to choice riders. We also have a serious issue here in even paying for what meager transit offerings we currently offer. Before we order the steak, we should first check our wallet to see if we can only afford the hamburger. Right now, we can only afford half a hamburger so you better make dammed sure you know how to pay for your steak.

[Detroitnerd]

The point I am trying to make is that you need to look at all modes and not be so easy to dismiss one over the other.

Really? Why aren't we looking into PRT then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit

[iheartthed]

The point I am trying to make is that you need to look at all modes and not be so easy to dismiss one over the other. The number of times I've hear this is staggering "I don't use transit now but I will if you build light rail...." is staggering. It makes me question sincerity or if they have ever rode transit. I do however know that there are thousands of metro Detroiters that are reliant on the transit system to get to work, school, or to doctors appointments. We should build a system that meets the needs of the most neediest, but also is attractive to choice riders. We also have a serious issue here in even paying for what meager transit offerings we currently offer. Before we order the steak, we should first check our wallet to see if we can only afford the hamburger. Right now, we can only afford half a hamburger so you better make dammed sure you know how to pay for your steak.

No, you're only willing to pay for hamburger, so you eat hamburger [[ground chuck at that). Detroit is a far richer metropolis today than it was a century ago when it had an abundance of transit lines.

I'm not anti-bus. I've seen bus systems done well; a great example of one is London's. But you're kidding yourself if you think that building a bus line is Detroit's first step to reclaim its once World Class transit system.

[DetroitPlanner]

Really? Why aren't we looking into PRT then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit

Sure how about this one while we are at it? http://www.interstatetraveler.us/

[Novine]

"If he can break down divisivness and make everyone see the state as a whole he may be able to accomplish a lot. "

This assumes that these ideas will be presented as a package. But they won't. Legislation for rail improvements for AG businesses won't be in the same legislation as a regional authority for transit. It may not even move through the same committees. For Snyder's plan to fly, you have to believe that there's a majority coalition of Republicans and Democrats interested in creating a new transit authority in SE Michigan with the ability to raise taxes or fees, with voter approval, to fund itself. I don't see that happen.

[Detroitnerd]

Sure how about this one while we are at it? http://www.interstatetraveler.us/

All you're saying is that we have to look at all the options.

[corktownyuppie]

"If he can break down divisivness and make everyone see the state as a whole he may be able to accomplish a lot. "

This assumes that these ideas will be presented as a package. But they won't.

I don't get it...why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't he find a sponsor to write the bill as a package deal and force the legislature to an up or down vote on the whole thing?

[downtownguy]

As far as I know, the only city in the world that has ever implemented it as the basis of their transit system is some small city in Brazil.

Population:
City of Detroit - 713,777
Municipality of Curitiba - 1,746,896

Metro Detroit - 4,296,250
Metro Curitiba - 3,168,980

Area
Detroit - 143 square miles
Curitiba - 166 square miles

Metro Detroit - 3,913 square miles
Metro Curitiba - 5,952 square mles

[Detroitnerd]

The opportunity: Detroit hasn't had light rail in 55 years. Forces are converging to return light rail to the streets of Detroit, upgrading transit service, attracting riders of choice, taking cars off the road, and potentially spurring development.

The problem: A lot of local stakeholders don't want a system that competes with road-building, oil, gas, engines and rubber.

The solution: Find a clever way to force a substandard system down the throats of metro Detroiters by relentlessly pushing for a system that uses concrete, rubber, oil, gas, engines and rubber. Either the system will be built, creating a bonanza for local stakeholders, or it won't -- but it will have stalled any discussion of light rail for another 10 years.

Keep it up, guys. Just be aware, we know what you're up to.

[Scottathew]

This is a still of the animation that WJBK uses every time they talk about the Woodward LRT project and it infuriates me every time they do it:

[Scottathew]

The big issue that I have is that our light rail needs to not compete with street traffic. I think our best compromise right now is running it up the middle of Woodward with light timings ALWAYS going green for trains.

I don't agree with the big businessmen that want it curbside the entire way. I think the current compromised plan of going curbside at Grand Circus and points south is acceptable. In the very dense CBD curbside might make sense, but anywhere else I would oppose it with great emotion!

Imagine a center-run Woodward rail taking you from downtown Royal Oak to the CBD. A system with few stops that's actually faster than taking a car.

Such a system would benefit not only Detroit, but also the suburban land near the rail line. It would become very desirable to live within walking distance of the M1 rail if you worked downtown.

I'm a mass-transit dreamer. I hope we can do it. It's nice to see the downtown business leaders want it to [[although I disagree on curb-side).

[DetroitPlanner]

No, you're only willing to pay for hamburger, so you eat hamburger [[ground chuck at that). Detroit is a far richer metropolis today than it was a century ago when it had an abundance of transit lines.

I'm not anti-bus. I've seen bus systems done well; a great example of one is London's. But you're kidding yourself if you think that building a bus line is Detroit's first step to reclaim its once World Class transit system.

I've never said I was ainti-rail dispite your assumptions. LOL. All I do is point out that there is more than just rail out there. You are stubborn and can't think outside the box nor realize that we don't have the money we had a century ago. We have not grown real wealth in probably 40 years. This was not the case in 1911. You are using transit to equate to trains only. We still have transit lines, but we don't have the money to pay for it. This thread is about what the Governor is proposing to actually fix things and all you can do is complain and push your one-trick pony agenda.

[DetroitPlanner]

All you're saying is that we have to look at all the options.

Thats not a realistic option. No prototype of this technology exists.

[urbanhat]

The opportunity: Detroit hasn't had light rail in 55 years. Forces are converging to return light rail to the streets of Detroit, upgrading transit service, attracting riders of choice, taking cars off the road, and potentially spurring development.

The problem: A lot of local stakeholders don't want a system that competes with road-building, oil, gas, engines and rubber.

The solution: Find a clever way to force a substandard system down the throats of metro Detroiters by relentlessly pushing for a system that uses concrete, rubber, oil, gas, engines and rubber. Either the system will be built, creating a bonanza for local stakeholders, or it won't -- but it will have stalled any discussion of light rail for another 10 years.

Keep it up, guys. Just be aware, we know what you're up to.

I think you got it about right.. and you're right the forces against transit are rather depressing. But wouldn't an efficient, modern bus system be better than what we have now?

Wouldn't it be great if the car companies had retained their train-making business?

[Richard]

http://roadsbridges.com/detroit-scor...s-hybrid-buses

Not only new buses but hybrid buses.

[ghettopalmetto]

Keep in mind that Detroit's artierials have much better bones for running BRT or LRT than Cleveland's Euclid Corridor comparing Woodward with a Euclid is a bogus arguement. Woodward averages nine lanes in the City and 8 in the burbs with a large grassy median. Eucliid is Shoehorned in there and is not much wider than Woodward S of Grand Circus to Campus Martius. When you consider that Euclid is a relatively short streach that connects downtown, CSU, the Cleveland Clinic, and University Circle, it is an intensly used line where users include the handicapped which take a great deal of time to load and unload.

Please explain what you mean by "better bones". Last I checked, a bus is one lane wide, whether it runs in Cleveland, Detroit, Europe, or Southeast Asia. Those extra lanes on Woodward ain't gonna help a bus go any faster.

You might want to read a bit on the Cleveland Euclid Corridor Project. That bus has a dedicated lane in each direction [[i.e. NO automobile traffic), has pre-paid fare collection, and boards at-grade [[so the handicapped issue is pretty moot). And yet it's STILL barely faster than a Manhattan bus.

If you want bus "rapid" transit, then start instituting prepayment of fares on the 53 bus. Reduce the number of stops. Improve signage and branding of that route. Provide MAPS, for Christ's sake. Run the buses every ten minutes like clockwork. Adopt traffic signal pre-emption. It's STILL a God damned bus. There are physical and mechanical limitations to what a bus can do. That is, for those of us who prefer FACTS over some rehashed bullshit idea from South America that you treat like something Brand New.

[Novine]

"I don't get it...why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't he find a sponsor to write the bill as a package deal and force the legislature to an up or down vote on the whole thing?"

Because that's not how laws are passed in the state legislature. In fact, it's unconstitutional in Michigan to pass laws in this way although at times, various laws are tie-barred together so that they pass or fail as a group. But that's not going to happen with Snyder's proposals. They'll be parceled out to the various committees to rip apart and put back together, or sent away to die depending on the views of the Republican leadership in the state House and the Senate.

[DetroitPlanner]

Please explain what you mean by "better bones". Last I checked, a bus is one lane wide, whether it runs in Cleveland, Detroit, Europe, or Southeast Asia. Those extra lanes on Woodward ain't gonna help a bus go any faster.

You might want to read a bit on the Cleveland Euclid Corridor Project. That bus has a dedicated lane in each direction [[i.e. NO automobile traffic), has pre-paid fare collection, and boards at-grade [[so the handicapped issue is pretty moot). And yet it's STILL barely faster than a Manhattan bus.

If you want bus "rapid" transit, then start instituting prepayment of fares on the 53 bus. Reduce the number of stops. Improve signage and branding of that route. Provide MAPS, for Christ's sake. Run the buses every ten minutes like clockwork. Adopt traffic signal pre-emption. It's STILL a God damned bus. There are physical and mechanical limitations to what a bus can do. That is, for those of us who prefer FACTS over some rehashed bullshit idea from South America that you treat like something Brand New.

First of all I totally agree with you on the points of your third paragraph. By better bones, I mean that Woodward has a lot more capacity than Euclid could ever have. In addition, the lights along Woodard are modern, meaning it would not take much to upgrade them to pre-emps. Maps are provided, but there are issues as these are all online. You don't see too many sneiors with internet or smartphones, particularly those who can't afford a car.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

BY MATT HELMS

DETROIT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER


Gov. Rick Snyder will propose building a network of high-speed buses along major roads between Detroit and its suburbs to pave the way for a regional transit system, officials in his administration said this afternoon.

Snyder, in a speech that will lay out his transportation agenda Wednesday afternoon at Lawrence Technological University in Southfield, will propose creating rapid-transit bus lines along Woodward and Gratiot avenues from downtown to suburbs, between downtown and Ann Arbor with a stop at Detroit Metro Airport, as well as along M-59 in Macomb and Oakland counties.

The high-speed bus lines would be operated by a new governing board made up of representatives of Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtenaw counties independently of existing transit providers, the Detroit Department of Transportation and SMART, the suburban bus system.

Snyder administration officials said the governor views the plan as way to jump-start a regional transit system in metro Detroit, a long-sought goal that has defied dozens of similar attempts since the 1960s. The rapid-transit system would be operated and funded independently – through a fee on vehicle registrations or similar method voters would be asked to approve – and would provide a road map for the city and suburban bus systems to ultimately work better together if not merge outright.

Continued at: http://www.freep.com/article/2011102...text|FRONTPAGE

This is a dumb plan.

Buses!

For crying out loud buses.

With cost of rising fuel projected in the next 10 to 20 years, Rick "geninus" Synder wants a speeding buses. Has he ever seen DDOT drivers? Not a single one drives below the speed limit.

This is ludacris!

We need a High Speed Raid and a mass transit system rail system does not require gasoline or diesel.

Don't believe the hype people. This plan was suggested by bus manufacturers and asphalt contractors.

Is there anyone in Lansing with brains?

[canuck]

No, you're only willing to pay for hamburger, so you eat hamburger [[ground chuck at that). Detroit is a far richer metropolis today than it was a century ago when it had an abundance of transit lines.

Very astute comment. Just look at the numbers for metro Detroit's GDP. It is a wealthy metropolis, and the pretense that because Detroit proper is poorer, any attempt at upgrading will be disparaged by the anti-democratic, anti-mobility people out there. It is nimbyism pure and simple. Detroit has all the elements to produce the finest rail system anywhere in the world. I think that the political will is weak and the popular will is dulled and therefore rendered inefficient. A project to develop Detroit's preeminence via transit development using the latest technology would propel the economy. The wealth is there; the urban-suburban coalition needs to happen first before any of that gels through IMO.

It is a fact that any major metro can reserve a part of the contracting for assembly on its territory.
For an enterprise as big as transit in Detroit, the contractor should provide employment in Detroit to a high percentage especially given the experienced industrial manpower available. The old Budd plant in metro Detroit was a massive plant back in the day. Kawasaki, Alsthom and Bombardier all have plants in New York State to respond to delivery of the New York Subway cars and suburban trains. Detroiters need to be more demanding in order to reclaim preeminence.

[professorscott]

Very astute comment. Just look at the numbers for metro Detroit's GDP. It is a wealthy metropolis, and the pretense that because Detroit proper is poorer, any attempt at upgrading will be disparaged by the anti-democratic, anti-mobility people out there. It is nimbyism pure and simple. Detroit has all the elements to produce the finest rail system anywhere in the world. I think that the political will is weak and the popular will is dulled and therefore rendered inefficient. A project to develop Detroit's preeminence via transit development using the latest technology would propel the economy. The wealth is there; the urban-suburban coalition needs to happen first before any of that gels through IMO.

It is a fact that any major metro can reserve a part of the contracting for assembly on its territory.
For an enterprise as big as transit in Detroit, the contractor should provide employment in Detroit to a high percentage especially given the experienced industrial manpower available. The old Budd plant in metro Detroit was a massive plant back in the day. Kawasaki, Alsthom and Bombardier all have plants in New York State to respond to delivery of the New York Subway cars and suburban trains. Detroiters need to be more demanding in order to reclaim preeminence.

This post contains some very significant falsehoods. I'm not even going to bother with the "wealthy metropolis" part. I laughed at that. Just to pick out a couple highlights:

"Detroit has all the elements to produce the finest rail system anywhere in the world." Sure, except money! Detroit [[I mean the region) doesn't have anywhere close to the money necessary to maintain the roads, water lines and sewer lines it is already responsible for. To implement the 2008 Regional Transit Plan - which is a very modest plan - will cost about ten billion dollars. We can't keep the roads repaired, we can't keep the buses running, the people mover is in dire straits financially, yet somehow we are supposed to be able to come up with money to produce "the finest rail system anywhere in the world"? How?

"It is a fact that any major metro can reserve a part of the contracting for assembly on its territory." Not if you plan on using Federal money; set-asides are absolutely verboten on Federally funded transit projects. There are plants in New York State, not because some government person insisted on a set-aside, but because it is convenient for these companies to be in the vicinity of an organization that orders a great many vehicles, parts and so on.

I agree that we have great industrial manpower, and I agree that a truly excellent transit system would revitalize the region. But nobody wants to pay for it. Detroiters don't have to be more demanding; Detroiters have to be more realistic. Kids, I want great transit too. Figure out how to pay for it.

[canuck]

Realistic means paying more. I just got my new Quebec car registration bill for 308 bucks and out of that was a new municipal tax for all Montreal island dwellers which took out 50 dollars of the total to pay for transit. This is a new tax added this year.

But professorscott, what makes you think metro Detroit is poor compared to other world cities?

Look at the numbers; Detroit is the 23rd richest metro in the world. Folks in Detroit need to engage the wealthy in more ways than the Occupy Wall Street front. They need concrete action on transit oriented urban planning that aggressively pursues objectives like walkability and all the good stuff we discuss ad nauseam on this forum.

Besides, if Detroit proper and pockets of metro are left to decline, it will become increasingly harder to regain ground lost over the years. That is obvious to everyone here, but the daily cost in crime and all the other sordid drama, is frankly debilitating in the extreme.

I think the pols who claim there is no money in Michigan to implement innovative transit are prolonging the status quo for the good old ball and chain of auto industry.

[professorscott]

It's an interesting question, Canuck. If we're so well off - and I am not disputing your ranking - where does all the money go? Our schools are always in financial distress; our roads are awful; our transit is nonexistent. Our tax burden, overall, is probably comparable with other major North American cities [[though I haven't studied this). So since we clearly aren't paying for education or infrastructure, what ARE we paying for?