Snyder to propose high-speed bus network to knit Detroit, suburban systems

[j to the jeremy]

The main issue with Detroit is not so much that it has separate networks, it is that both are underfunded and that there is no authority coordinating the two. In order for an authority to exist the State must approve legislation. This has been floated before both Engler and Granholm and never approved. Hopefully Snyder's messages of coordinating services will make this a no brainer, but there are a lot of out-state legislators who may see no value in this for their consituency and try to hook pork onto it and eventually kill it.

Right. Bham, we are the biggest city in the nation without a regional transit authority and regional tax. Look how well it's working out for us!!!!

Also, I should amend what I said earlier. I think Snyder's only doing this because Ray LaHood and Obama want Michigan out of the stone age....

[R8RBOB]

This is false [[Detroit has the People Mover), but it has nothing to do with my post.

I was obviously referring to DDOT vs. SMART, and the perception that the two agencies would automatically be much stronger as a single entity.

[[Bringing out my Booker T.) Tell you did not just say that!! Tell me you did not just say that Detroit has the People Mover!!

What is wrong having one regional bus authority?

[Bham1982]

None of those cities have separate city and suburban networks.

In fact all of these cities have separate city and suburban networks.

I can use the same Metro Card in my pocket right now, that I used to get to work this morning on the NYC subway, on any MTA bus in Long Island or Westchester County.

There are no MTA buses in Westchester County. There are on Long Island, but only in a small proportion of the Island, and it's a separate network, with separate funding sources.

If anything, Detroit has a surprisingly consolidated system, with only two major transit providers.

Long Island has Long Island Bus [[Nassau County) and Suffolk Transit [[Suffolk County), Westchester has Bee Line Bus, Rockland has Rockland Transit, NJ has NJ Transit, CT has CT Transit.

Then there are tons of city bus agencies [[Long Beach Bus, Huntington Bus, Morristown Transit etc.) and private bus services [[basically most of the commuter lines).

Heck, not even all of NYC has NYCT bus. Parts of Queens and Brooklyn have MTA Bus, which is a separate agency from NYCT Bus, though they are both part of the bigger MTA.

Now it's true that a few of the suburban services take Metrocard [[PATH, LI Bus and Bee Line now take Metrocard). But these are totally separate networks, with differing funding sources and the like, no different from DDOT vs. SMART.

[Bham1982]

Right. Bham, we are the biggest city in the nation without a regional transit authority and regional tax. Look how well it's working out for us!!!!

I believe that you're right and we are the only major metropolitan area without a regional tax.

But, as I've stated, most cities have separate city and suburban systems. Occasionally there are umbrella parent agencies, but it's relatively unusual to have a consolidated regional bus network without regard for city and suburban boundaries.

I think the larger theme is correct, though. We need well-funded transit for the region and some form of coordination.

The NYC area has a giant alphabet soup of transit agencies, but most of them are relatively well-funded and well-coordinated, which means you have good service across a huge geography, and means you can connect between systems.

So, for example, you can live in Morristown, NJ, and take Morristown Transit bus to the NJ Transit commuter rail station to Manhattan, where you can ride an MTA subway. Three separate systems, but good connectivity.

[Detroitnerd]

Bham, I've never seen anybody work so diligently to not get something.

[Scottathew]

For those that haven't seen it:

[tangerine]

Hey you guys! Get behind this man. Do you realize how screwed we are in transit. Thank God the govr is supporting some type of regional plan. As it stands now, under the proposed cuts that take effect December 1, there will be NO DIRECT BUS SERVICE between the cities and suburbs. Every single rider will have to transfer between Smart and DOT at the city limits. This is an economic and human disaster. Already lenghy bus trips will become unsustainable. An honest hard working person in Detroit will need 3-4 hours each way to commute by bus. I hope this is a precursor to the elmination of Smat and DOT. It's an absurdity that the region has split its tranist systems in this fashion to the effect of doubling or trippling the time required for people to commute.

[DetroitPlanner]

Hey you guys! Get behind this man. Do you realize how screwed we are in transit. Thank God the govr is supporting some type of regional plan. As it stands now, under the proposed cuts that take effect December 1, there will be NO DIRECT BUS SERVICE between the cities and suburbs. Every single rider will have to transfer between Smart and DOT at the city limits. This is an economic and human disaster. Already lenghy bus trips will become unsustainable. An honest hard working person in Detroit will need 3-4 hours each way to commute by bus. I hope this is a precursor to the elmination of Smat and DOT. It's an absurdity that the region has split its tranist systems in this fashion to the effect of doubling or trippling the time required for people to commute.

I am sure the effect of the long bus lines is to bring some continuity to the current system. The proposal as it stands will link together the SMART, DDOT, and AATA systems. If one of them wants the route, they would need to compete with the other agencies to provide service. If the service is not liked, or operates poorly then it can be rebid to another agency.

You can't have a system like that unless you have the authority. He is using the money as a carrot to get the authority bill through.

[mwilbert]

In other words, even with SEMCOG, er Snyder's "rapid" bus system, you're talking about a 45-60 minute bus ride just to get from downtown to Eight Mile Road. You'd think maybe one person in Michigan could learn from that example before rolling out another steaming pile.

I know how much you hate BRT, but this is pretty dubious. It only takes about 40 minutes to go between downtown to the fairgrounds now on the 53 bus which has no BRT characteristics.

[corktownyuppie]

For what it's worth...does anyone know the last time a Republican Governor supported a regional transit authority for SE Michigan?

[Dexlin]

Bham, I've never seen anybody work so diligently to not get something.

Amazing, isn't it. The display is kind of awe-inspiring if it weren't so sad and pitiful. This is the definition of wanting to be right in spite of being correct. lol

BTW, heard a little of what Snyder was proposing the other day. He knows that the legislature would never increase the state sales to help pay for transit, so he calculated that perhaps the county governments should be given some kind of additional tax authority if approved by the citizenry. It's still a hail mary pass in a political environment in which the GOP is so stubborn that they won't even allow local government even the possibility to ask their citizenry for specific transit-related taxes, but it's a start of a conversation. It's really too bad that we can't afford any more conversation.

The only hope for transit in Michigan, period is for folks to stop voting for people against any and all investment in the future. The real problem is that the Michigan Senate is so incredibly gerrymandered [[one of the most in the country) that we've literally had the GOP in the power in that particular house since the mid-80's. No joke.

[ghettopalmetto]

I know how much you hate BRT, but this is pretty dubious. It only takes about 40 minutes to go between downtown to the fairgrounds now on the 53 bus which has no BRT characteristics.

And that's on Woodward. A trip on Grand River or Gratiot would take longer, yes?

But you seem to understand my point, which is, bus "rapid" transit isn't all that rapid when compared to a traditional bus. Cleveland's Euclid Avenue "rapid" bus averages around 12-14 mph. In morning rush hour, it takes 38 minutes to travel 7 miles:

http://www.riderta.com/schedules/rt65wk.html

For what it's worth, the average NYC MTA bus averages 10-12 mph in Manhattan. MANHATTAN. Was the Euclid Corridor worth $250 million and 25 years of waiting around? Probably not.

[DetroitPlanner]

For what it's worth...does anyone know the last time a Republican Governor supported a regional transit authority for SE Michigan?

MIlliken.

Here is a little light reading for you folks. Transit is section 4, though its important to look at all of the infrastructure as a whole. http://download.gannett.edgesuite.ne...derremarks.pdf

Yeah Ghettopalmetto, I am wlling to bet that if you want to go from the fairgrounds to downtown on the Grand River bus it would take longer as you would have to take the seven mile bus out to Beech-Daly first!

Keep in mind that Detroit's artierials have much better bones for running BRT or LRT than Cleveland's Euclid Corridor comparing Woodward with a Euclid is a bogus arguement. Woodward averages nine lanes in the City and 8 in the burbs with a large grassy median. Eucliid is Shoehorned in there and is not much wider than Woodward S of Grand Circus to Campus Martius. When you consider that Euclid is a relatively short streach that connects downtown, CSU, the Cleveland Clinic, and University Circle, it is an intensly used line where users include the handicapped which take a great deal of time to load and unload.

[Detroitnerd]

What everybody knows is that BRT is a half-measure that tries to give buses [["loser cruisers") the cachet of rail, but doesn't really upgrade service to rail standards. It's also doubtful it brings any TOD. What everybody also knows is that the powers that be are determined to keep BRT on their "must-try" list. In spite of every reasonable argument.

Can you feel the steam coming off this pile? It's tremendous!

[swingline]

An investment in BRT infrastructure on the Woodward corridor should be a non-starter. It cannot cost-effectively co-exist with light rail. Nothing should undertaken that might "derail" the Woodward light rail. Woodward needs light rail not only for its improved reliable transit solutions, but for the TOD spin-off. Light rail will be a catalyst for increased investment and housing density in the region's most important corridor. BRT may be a solution for other corridors, but not for Woodward.

[corktownyuppie]

MIlliken.

Here is a little light reading for you folks. Transit is section 4, though its important to look at all of the infrastructure as a whole. http://download.gannett.edgesuite.ne...derremarks.pdf

Detroit metropolitan leaders have debated the development of a single transit authority to serve the 4.2 million residents of the region for decades, but have failed on every one of 23 documented attempts. Mayor Bing and I have worked with US Department of Transportation to form a task force including federal, state, city of Detroit and the counties of Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtenaw to facilitate communication and achieve agreement to move forward on regional transit. Continued failure is not an option

Wow. 23 times?!?! Jesus F-ng Christ.

Maybe I'm naive, but just about every person I talk to under 40 years old is fine with the idea of paying into a regional system for transit. What the hell have they been doing for 40 years?

DetroitPlanner, all sarcasm aside, with a Republican Gov finally pushing for this, what percentage chance do you think we will see of having some regional authority to run transit going forward?

[Detroitnerd]

Of course, I'm sure none of this has to do with SEMCOG's apportioning of delegates.

[DetroitPlanner]

Wow. 23 times?!?! Jesus F-ng Christ.

Maybe I'm naive, but just about every person I talk to under 40 years old is fine with the idea of paying into a regional system for transit. What the hell have they been doing for 40 years?

DetroitPlanner, all sarcasm aside, with a Republican Gov finally pushing for this, what percentage chance do you think we will see of having some regional authority to run transit going forward?

The party has little to do with this. He will face opposition from his own party [[tea partiers) as well as outstate dems. In order to get this done he will need to tread lightly and build a coalition where everyone understands how important transportation is to the state. If you read the whole document, he does not leave out the need to improve outstate areas including rural transit programs and the movement of agricultural goods. He has to make everyone understand how important all of these objectives are. If he can break down divisivness and make everyone see the state as a whole he may be able to accomplish a lot.

We will see. These discussions will be quite interesting.

[Wesley Mouch]

An investment in BRT infrastructure on the Woodward corridor should be a non-starter. It cannot cost-effectively co-exist with light rail. Nothing should undertaken that might "derail" the Woodward light rail. Woodward needs light rail not only for its improved reliable transit solutions, but for the TOD spin-off. Light rail will be a catalyst for increased investment and housing density in the region's most important corridor. BRT may be a solution for other corridors, but not for Woodward.

Yeah, light rail is cool, but beggars can be choosers.

And at end of the day, either thing is cool, if done right. That's the rub for Detroit. [[See thread on Rosa Parks Transit Center, which it appears neither black nor white folks can sit down on clean toilets.) I'd take a well-run BRT over a RPTC light rail system.

[DetroitPlanner]

Yeah, light rail is cool, but beggars can be choosers.

And at end of the day, either thing is cool, if done right. That's the rub for Detroit. [[See thread on Rosa Parks Transit Center, which it appears neither black nor white folks can sit down on clean toilets.) I'd take a well-run BRT over a RPTC light rail system.

This is why the planning process involves looking at all options, costs, as well as doing nothing and presenting it to the public for thier opinion. Just because many folks who post here easily dismiss BRT as something that they would never ride, the people who ride the system now will see this as a marked improvement. The big question is, who are we building this for? The people who need it, or the people who want the latest fad?

[Detroitnerd]

This is why the planning process involves looking at all options, costs, as well as doing nothing and presenting it to the public for thier opinion. Just because many folks who post here easily dismiss BRT as something that they would never ride, the people who ride the system now will see this as a marked improvement. The big question is, who are we building this for? The people who need it, or the people who want the latest fad?

Or for the preponderance of local road and cement contractors who can't help with light rail but are looking for a gravy train of concrete to form, demolish and rebuild every few years...

[iheartthed]

This is why the planning process involves looking at all options, costs, as well as doing nothing and presenting it to the public for thier opinion. Just because many folks who post here easily dismiss BRT as something that they would never ride, the people who ride the system now will see this as a marked improvement. The big question is, who are we building this for? The people who need it, or the people who want the latest fad?

I'm guessing that you're implying BRT is the latest fad?

[Detroitnerd]

I'm guessing that you're implying BRT is the latest fad?

No, he's calling a time-honored system used the world over a fad.

Naturally, if you want light rail, you're just a mean, selfish MF who wants to sock it to straphangers.

[Detroitnerd]

C'mon, iheart: Don't make the perfect the enemy of the mediocre status quo!

[Wesley Mouch]

The BRT vs. light rail argument is irrelevant, unless you harbor some agenda. What we all want is a functional, reliable, well-maintained and well-operated way to get around.

Its a huge investment. I lean towards BRT only precisely because it is the least capital intensive.

There are just so many things Detroit needs.

But to me the most important factor to consider is the dysfunction of Detroit's management/leadership. They frankly don't deserve a light rail system to operate. Name me one thing that Detroit's public sector runs efficiently.

So give 'em BRT,and if they take good care of it, give 'em light rail in 20 years.