New Sidewalk Wheelchair Ramps in the City of Detroit where no one lives

[MidTownMs]

The City of Detroit is in the process of repairing its sidewalk wheelchair ramps. But does it make sense to start with the intersections where no one lives? This one, for instance, on the east side. Who's it for?

[Richard]

Fed funds paying for it, if it is there it must be compliant, results of major lawsuit pretty much every city is going through this.

Why there ? maybe plans for the future not yet disclosed or less interruption etc.etc. but is is gov so if it made sense then you should be worried.

[MidTownMs]

Fed funds paying for it, if it is there it must be compliant, results of major lawsuit pretty much every city is going through this.

Why there ? maybe plans for the future not yet disclosed or less interruption etc.etc. but is is gov so if it made sense then you should be worried.

Gotcha...

[Mikeg]

The City of Detroit is in the process of repairing its sidewalk wheelchair ramps. But does it make sense to start with the intersections where no one lives? This one, for instance, on the east side. Who's it for?

Here's a reprint of a 2010 Free Press article that answers all your questions. The bumpy portions of the ramp [["dectable warning surface") are for the benefit of the visually impaired, sort of a "braille" indicator of the crossing point. However, there are questions as to how effective they are for the totally blind. All mandated by the Federal Government to bring pedestrian crossings into compliance with the 1991 Americans with Disabilities Act.

[animatedmartian]

Yea, I wonder if the curb is exactly what the blind would be worried about hitting in an area with demolished homes and no sidewalks.

Actually, does anyone in Detroit even use sidewalks?! Anytime I ever see people actually use them is on the main roads.

[Zacha341]

My concern is the wheel and motorized folks I see riding along in the street. I don't get it but it's not uncommon to see folks going down Woodward along with the buses [[what few buses still out there) and cars. Crazy!

Yea, I wonder if the curb is exactly what the blind would be worried about hitting in an area with demolished homes and no sidewalks.

Actually, does anyone in Detroit even use sidewalks?! Anytime I ever see people actually use them is on the main roads.

[wolverine]

Had a rightsizing plan been established, the unused streets could have been taken out of service.

The curbs at the corners of the unused streets could have been removed.

Streets without curbs and sidewalks at corners are exempt from the ADA rules because there is no place for truncated dome installation.

Yes, removing the curb would also cause the street to flood and facilitate further decay to the road surface.....which is kind of the point when the street is no longer in service.

Instead of money being used for demolishing a single corner. They had to be updated and brought up to code [[costing money). They may possibly receive some maintenance [[costing money). And will eventually be removed someday anyway [[costing money).


Ah, and what a shame. The corner looks nicely done. Extra control joints for a long lasting sidewalk. Shame the tens of thousands of heaved up sidewalks midblock across the city will provide a much bigger hazard to folks with disabilities. You think ADA regulations will help with that or is this all done so in the end they can say our sidewalks are all up to code?

[Goose]

isn't government wonderful.... what an insightful use of taxpayer money.... in the picture posted above, the sidewalk leads to nowhere....

[DetroitPlanner]

The reason behind the sidewalk/ramp replacement is that a disabled group sued the City. This is part of the sttlement. These lawsuits happen all over the place, it is essentially a way for lawyers to get rich. Many of the new ramps replaced perfectly good old ramps that were put in place before ADA but did not have the same slope that ADA requires. However, the old ramps were perfectly able to accomodate wheelchairs.

http://www.accessiblesociety.org/top...nsolicgen.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Built-.....-a0143250948

Unfortunately, Detroit in its wisdom installed many ramps prior to 1990. The City was nearly 100 percent accessible by the mid 1980's. While it was seen as a leader then, the requirements changed.

[rjk]

From the Freep article.
"Even advocates for disabled people who have sued the city admit the folly of such installations. They say they are willing to negotiate with city officials and are waiting for the city to present them with a policy to modify the settlement."

Did the city ever try to modify the settlement? These sidewalks to nowhere are everywhere in the Chene area north of Gratiot. Even if they would have nogotiated a deal that would have given the money to some disabled group instead of building some of these ramps at least it would have resulted in something postive.

[Meddle]

The reason behind the sidewalk/ramp replacement is that a disabled group sued the City. This is part of the sttlement.

That doesn't answer the question as to why the work in being done on sidewalks nobody uses in abandoned areas.

[DetroitPole]

Alright, all this talk of "no one" and "no where" is pissing me off. Look, just because you don't live there, and the place is shelled out and frankly hideous doesn't mean some people don't live in the surrounding area. And a disproportionate amount of these people in poor neighborhoods are disabled.

"no one" or "no where" is usually code for "middle class white people don't live there anymore" and justification to just abandon an area.

"nobody uses" and "abandoned areas" - now those are pretty sweeping statements. Can you verifty "nobody" or complete abandonment? Because you can make that civil engineering call based on flying past those areas on I-94 going 80mph?

Frankly, from a practical sense, anything to get people to use the damn sidewalks in this city is a blessing. Walking in the street is dangerous and stupid. I live in a totally in-tact, safe neighborhood and we still have roving bands of youth [[negligent parents: do you know where your children are?) walking in the street for no other reason than to be defiant little shitheads.

In my opinion, sidewalks should be up to code. Everywhere.

[Goose]

Alright, all this talk of "no one" and "no where" is pissing me off. Look, just because you don't live there, and the place is shelled out and frankly hideous doesn't mean some people don't live in the surrounding area. And a disproportionate amount of these people in poor neighborhoods are disabled.

"no one" or "no where" is usually code for "middle class white people don't live there anymore" and justification to just abandon an area.

"nobody uses" and "abandoned areas" - now those are pretty sweeping statements. Can you verifty "nobody" or complete abandonment? Because you can make that civil engineering call based on flying past those areas on I-94 going 80mph?

Frankly, from a practical sense, anything to get people to use the damn sidewalks in this city is a blessing. Walking in the street is dangerous and stupid. I live in a totally in-tact, safe neighborhood and we still have roving bands of youth [[negligent parents: do you know where your children are?) walking in the street for no other reason than to be defiant little shitheads.

In my opinion, sidewalks should be up to code. Everywhere.

must EVERYTHING be about race.... if you look at the pic, it IS a sidewalk to nowhere - IT FREAKING ENDS TWO SLABS OUT FROM THE NEW AREA.....

[j to the jeremy]

must EVERYTHING be about race.... if you look at the pic, it IS a sidewalk to nowhere - IT FREAKING ENDS TWO SLABS OUT FROM THE NEW AREA.....

Only in one direction. The sidewalk going to the right must go somewhere. Honestly, I know it looks weird to have these curb cuts going in in desolate neighborhoods, but it's a Federal mandate. And it's one that's damn hard to argue with. DetroitPole is right, 100%. Many of the people who live where "no one" lives, are elderly or disabled. I guess it's their fault for sticking around...let's not give them adequate sidewalks for their wheelchairs...it's not like the streetlights are on anyways...

I've heard people complain about these ADA sidewalks for a few years now, and it usually ends with them complaining that it was the city's choice to put them in. That is false. So there's no issue here.

[illwill]

Alright, all this talk of "no one" and "no where" is pissing me off. Look, just because you don't live there, and the place is shelled out and frankly hideous doesn't mean some people don't live in the surrounding area. And a disproportionate amount of these people in poor neighborhoods are disabled.

"no one" or "no where" is usually code for "middle class white people don't live there anymore" and justification to just abandon an area.

"nobody uses" and "abandoned areas" - now those are pretty sweeping statements. Can you verifty "nobody" or complete abandonment? Because you can make that civil engineering call based on flying past those areas on I-94 going 80mph?

Frankly, from a practical sense, anything to get people to use the damn sidewalks in this city is a blessing. Walking in the street is dangerous and stupid. I live in a totally in-tact, safe neighborhood and we still have roving bands of youth [[negligent parents: do you know where your children are?) walking in the street for no other reason than to be defiant little shitheads.

In my opinion, sidewalks should be up to code. Everywhere.

I abosolutely agree Detroitpole. You're 100% correct. This was a stupid comment by a selfish person and I'm surprised no one else said something earlier in the post.

[JBMcB]

Alright, all this talk of "no one" and "no where" is pissing me off. Look, just because you don't live there, and the place is shelled out and frankly hideous doesn't mean some people don't live in the surrounding area. And a disproportionate amount of these people in poor neighborhoods are disabled.

Personally, my problem isn't that they are bringing up the sidewalk ramps to code. My problem is they are spending all this money bringing the ramps to code when there are large swaths of sidewalk that aren't suitable for walking on, much less accessible to people with impairments.

If you want the sidewalks to be accessible, you start by making sure the sidewalks themselves are safe, instead of fixing the angle of attack on ramps. I understand the federal mandate and lawsuit and all that - it's the inefficiency of top-down, centralized, one-size-fits-all governing that bothers me.

[wolverine]

Can you verifty "nobody" or complete abandonment?

Yes.

In fact there are ares in the city with up to 10 contiguous blocks of abandonment. Wish I could post some visuals and data, but I can't do that. Guess you'll have to take my word.

This is why the city wants to be cut some slack. We all know there are spots that will have a grand total of zero population on a city block, and the block across from that. I'd rather see no investment in the unoccupied block, and new sidewalks placed in front places like bus stops. But since you don't seem to believe entirely empty blocks exist, I won't bother to go any further on this.

In my opinion, sidewalks should be up to code. Everywhere.

Cool, you wanna pay for it? If yes, we can choose the most desolate street corner and engrave your name in it lol!

Let's be rational here, the city has lost over half of its population. "Everywhere" may have places in the middle of nowhere.

Again, I'd rather have seen this money spent on improving handicapped access at bus stops or at busy street intersections. The place people will need assistance the most.

[animatedmartian]

In fact there are ares in the city with up to 10 contiguous blocks of abandonment. Wish I could post some visuals and data, but I can't do that. Guess you'll have to take my word.

Here's a few examples.

http://g.co/maps/mr8ry

http://g.co/maps/p4n98

http://g.co/maps/qca2n

http://g.co/maps/u36fu

Another thing is that these images are probably a year or two old ... If I'm disabled and live in these areas, I'd hope my wheel chair has all wheel drive. If I'm blind, fuggedaboutit.

[DetroitPlanner]

That doesn't answer the question as to why the work in being done on sidewalks nobody uses in abandoned areas.

It does. I never said it made sense!

[ordinary]

At least the cement contractor is making money . . . er, that is if the city pays them.

[rjk]

Most of the new ramps in the Chene area might has well have been built in front of a brickwall because that's as far as anyone in a wheelchair is going to get because of the damaged sidewalks. An able bodied person couldn't maneuver those sidewalks without spraining an ankle, not to mention the knee high grass/trees/weeds. Most of them are completely impassable for a person in a wheelchair, hence my comment about sidewalks to nowhere.

[DetroitHabitater]

The ramps like this installed in dearborn 10 years ago already have the knobs shearing off. They don't seem to hold up.

from an engineering perspective i really don't see how the larger knobs make better grips for wheelchairs. They seem too large.

oh and they definitely make the sidewalk less accessible for roller-bladders

[Mikeg]

The ramps like this installed in dearborn 10 years ago already have the knobs shearing off. They don't seem to hold up.

from an engineering perspective i really don't see how the larger knobs make better grips for wheelchairs. They seem too large......

Those are called "detectable warning surfaces" and the knobs are not for traction but for the visually-impaired to be able to find their way down the sidewalk ramp and locate the place where they can safely stand without stepping into the traffic lane.

I just happened to notice this suburban intersection today:



It has 8 of these recently-installed "detectable warning surfaces" and given where they were installed [[probably in violation of the ADA design requirements) I fail to see how a blind person will ever find them. Common sense should have told the city engineers and their cement contractor that this was a total waste of time and money.

[Richard]

Those are called "detectable warning surfaces" and the knobs are not for traction but for the visually-impaired to be able to find their way down the sidewalk ramp and locate the place where they can safely stand without stepping into the traffic lane.

I just happened to notice this suburban intersection today:



It has 8 of these recently-installed "detectable warning surfaces" and given where they were installed [[probably in violation of the ADA design requirements) I fail to see how a blind person will ever find them. Common sense should have told the city engineers and their cement contractor that this was a total waste of time and money.

I wonder if it has something to do with having to be behind to solid white line?

I also wonder how bad the neighborhoods would really be have not the generations of theft of neighbor reinvestment funds and where are they now?

The population may have shrunk but taxes are still being charged for road/sidewalk maintenance so taxes collected on all of those properties whether vacant or not are still being collected and not allotted?

[bartock]

I wonder if it has something to do with having to be behind to solid white line?

I also wonder how bad the neighborhoods would really be have not the generations of theft of neighbor reinvestment funds and where are they now?

The population may have shrunk but taxes are still being charged for road/sidewalk maintenance so taxes collected on all of those properties whether vacant or not are still being collected and not allotted?

Do you really think that taxes are being collected on those vacant lots? I don't.