DTE Reposses Highland Park Street Lights

[bartock]

I like how many people on here think its totally justifiable that Highland Park had their street lights ripped out and sold by scrap metal by a huge corporation. Like totally, the people of Highland Park's fault. JUST GET A JOB N BUY A PORCH LIGHT. And while you are at it, since you have no food stamps or welfare, GET TO GROWIN, THE PLANTATION IS BACK

^fucked up

um...unless Highland Park is full of college students nobody is losing their bridge cards. The "plantation is back" bit...what the fuck does that even mean in the context of this issue?

[Detroitnerd]

um...unless Highland Park is full of college students nobody is losing their bridge cards. The "plantation is back" bit...what the fuck does that even mean in the context of this issue?

Economic feudalism...

[bartock]

Economic feudalism...

I think that's a bit much.

But, even accepting that, the word "plantation" is normally a buzzword for another type of -ism.

[Trumpeteer]

Highland Park freely used a product at their own free will, did not pay for that product for a considerable length of time, and the provider simply removed the product from the streets as is their absolute right. There is NOT a free ride unless you're the "less fortunate". BTW if some of you are so incredibly generous to offer to pay the stunning amount of ".50 cents more a month" on your power bill to make sure the poor have streetlights in HP, that would take a couple of million of you "progressives" to even make up what is legally owed! Step it up and make it $10 a month unless it's difficult to be generous with anything other than someone else's money.

[JBMcB]

DTE's profit margin is around 7%, lower than the industry average of 8% and much lower than most other industries [[energy company profit margins are amongst the lowest in the industrialized sectors, just lower than food.) They are hardly soaking anyone.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, we as Americans value our civil freedoms. But once we get into the marketplace, or the job, we have to leave our rights at the door. The idea of economic democracy is one that rattles people, but can serve the ultimate good.

After all, money is imaginary. If you think this is lefty-rainbow-unicorn territory, you'd be wrong. The people in charge of the economy know that money is imaginary. All value on paper is imaginary. They take trash, repackage it as securities, and sell it at great profit. Numbers on pieces of paper, open to argument, speculation and, ultimately, possibly worthless. And yet we have people declaring that money is the absolute guiding force, that nobody should enjoy anything they don't pay for.

And yet, all this is abstract, unreal. The reality is an increasingly dangerous city, darkened, with a likelihood of more actual death, injury and pain. More people shot, more people robbed, a weakened community.

Economic democracy would be a good way to ensure that we don't lose sight of important social goals, that, whatever the little numbers on paper say, they should be tied to healthy children, good schools, real future opportunities, preserved nature, low pollution, better transportation, more livable cities, dignified lives for the elderly ... the list of very real, human needs goes on and on.

And yet, in our society, we would rather be slaves to a fiction, obeying the magicians of capital, and increasingly blaming the most vulnerable in our society for its ills. That's crazy.

I think that's the difference between economic democracy and economic feudalism.

[MikeM]

Highland Park freely used a product at their own free will, did not pay for that product for a considerable length of time, and the provider simply removed the product from the streets as is their absolute right. There is NOT a free ride unless you're the "less fortunate". BTW if some of you are so incredibly generous to offer to pay the stunning amount of ".50 cents more a month" on your power bill to make sure the poor have streetlights in HP, that would take a couple of million of you "progressives" to even make up what is legally owed! Step it up and make it $10 a month unless it's difficult to be generous with anything other than someone else's money.

Jesus Christ, what a load of shit. As if Highland Park were a person, set out on a shoplifting spree. It's not like they didn't have a couple of Fortune 500 companies pull out and leave followed by a bunch of smaller industries followed by numerous retail businesses followed by most of their upper and middle-income taxpayers. "Their own free will"?

[bartock]

Well, we as Americans value our civil freedoms. But once we get into the marketplace, or the job, we have to leave our rights at the door. The idea of economic democracy is one that rattles people, but can serve the ultimate good.

After all, money is imaginary. If you think this is lefty-rainbow-unicorn territory, you'd be wrong. The people in charge of the economy know that money is imaginary. All value on paper is imaginary. They take trash, repackage it as securities, and sell it at great profit. Numbers on pieces of paper, open to argument, speculation and, ultimately, possibly worthless. And yet we have people declaring that money is the absolute guiding force, that nobody should enjoy anything they don't pay for.

And yet, all this is abstract, unreal. The reality is an increasingly dangerous city, darkened, with a likelihood of more actual death, injury and pain. More people shot, more people robbed, a weakened community.

Economic democracy would be a good way to ensure that we don't lose sight of important social goals, that, whatever the little numbers on paper say, they should be tied to healthy children, good schools, real future opportunities, preserved nature, low pollution, better transportation, more livable cities, dignified lives for the elderly ... the list of very real, human needs goes on and on.

And yet, in our society, we would rather be slaves to a fiction, obeying the magicians of capital, and increasingly blaming the most vulnerable in our society for its ills. That's crazy.

I think that's the difference between economic democracy and economic feudalism.

How do we leave our rights at the door when we voluntarily seek employment for the purposes of earning this so-called abstract concept called money in order to purchase goods and services to take care of ourselves and those we love? And pay taxes to a bureaucratic system which has social welfare programs to assist those less fortunate? And chose to donate time and money to charitable programs that do that as well? Unless I'm missing something, it sure sounds like democracy to me.

"slaves to a fiction"? The fiction is that we'd all be living and taking care of each other if this so-called abstract did not exist. Let me suggest that the eldest, weakest and poorest among us would be the first to go in a State of Nature. I'll stick with what the majority of us have "surrendered" ourselves to.

[Detroitnerd]

How do we leave our rights at the door when we voluntarily seek employment for the purposes of earning this so-called abstract concept called money in order to purchase goods and services to take care of ourselves and those we love? And pay taxes to a bureaucratic system which has social welfare programs to assist those less fortunate? And chose to donate time and money to charitable programs that do that as well? Unless I'm missing something, it sure sounds like democracy to me.

Look at how loaded your language is. What is voluntary about our system? What choice do we really have? The most effective slavery is when you have convinced the slaves they are free. If we had real economic democracy, 99 percent of us could all have a greater share of the wealth we produce as a nation, based on the fact that it's we who do most of the living and dying in this country. We'd find it easier, much easier, to apply that wealth to strong public services, such as national health care. Imagine how much more freedom we'd have then! [[I'm sure that's why so many equate national health care with slavery; more Orwellian.)

"slaves to a fiction"? The fiction is that we'd all be living and taking care of each other if this so-called abstract did not exist. Let me suggest that the eldest, weakest and poorest among us would be the first to go in a State of Nature. I'll stick with what the majority of us have "surrendered" ourselves to.

Yes, slaves to a fiction. And told to disregard and despite anything that looks like economic democracy, especially unions.

Anyway, no need to argue it with me. If you'd like to learn more, this Wikipedia page is a pretty good primer on ED.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy

[Detroitnerd]

The fact is, that you're a very smart person that has valuable view points. You know how to express your views, but when someone respectfully challenges your view points you resort to sarcasm, all caps, mockery, and other tactics that degrade the conversation.

...

I'd rather debate the topics than sarcastically throw around labels and put words in mouths of people.

Oh, really?

That's a false dichotomy. In your argument there are only two choices:

1) Unlimited government assistance
2) Ass on the street


There are more options:

3) Get a f***ing job
4) Still can't get a job? Try f***ing harder
5) Still can't get a job? Keep trying.
6) Too lazy to find a job? Move in with family.
7) Too lazy to find a job? Appeal to a charity for assistance.
8) Get a f***ing job

Class act, 48091...

[JBMcB]

What is voluntary about our system? What choice do we really have?

You have two choices. You can work for yourself and pay yourself whatever you like, or you can agree to work for someone else. Working for someone else is easier, but doesn't pay as well. Working for yourself takes a lot more work, but the pay is much better.

Want *real* economic democracy? Make it easier for people to start their own businesses. For instance - if you don't incorporate you get soaked in taxes. If you work for yourself your individual tax rate shouldn't be higher than the corporate tax rate.

[Detroitnerd]

You have two choices. You can work for yourself and pay yourself whatever you like, or you can agree to work for someone else. Working for someone else is easier, but doesn't pay as well. Working for yourself takes a lot more work, but the pay is much better.

Want *real* economic democracy? Make it easier for people to start their own businesses. For instance - if you don't incorporate you get soaked in taxes. If you work for yourself your individual tax rate shouldn't be higher than the corporate tax rate.

No, I mean, what say do we as workers have in what we produce? Why? Where the profits go? Since the workers make up the majority of the company, why shouldn't the workers have most of the say in what the company does?

In comparison, your thinking is very limited. The workers should own the means of production, and the bosses shouldn't gobble up all the reward. In fact, they probably shouldn't be "in charge" or even "facilitators" as long as they're making decisions that are profitable in the short term but damaging in the long term.

Anyway, if you want answers, read the article. I'm sure there's plenty in there for you to consider.

[bartock]

Look at how loaded your language is. What is voluntary about our system? What choice do we really have? The most effective slavery is when you have convinced the slaves they are free. If we had real economic democracy, 99 percent of us could all have a greater share of the wealth we produce as a nation, based on the fact that it's we who do most of the living and dying in this country. We'd find it easier, much easier, to apply that wealth to strong public services, such as national health care. Imagine how much more freedom we'd have then! [[I'm sure that's why so many equate national health care with slavery; more Orwellian.)



Yes, slaves to a fiction. And told to disregard and despite anything that looks like economic democracy, especially unions.

Anyway, no need to argue it with me. If you'd like to learn more, this Wikipedia page is a pretty good primer on ED.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy

It would be impossible to argue some of these concepts with you because some are so vague they could literally be worked into any point. It reads like a hodgepodge of philosophy, though there are some interesting ideas. I get the few corporate shareholders making decisions for large numbers of "stakeholders", but how is that any different than anything? Small numbers of people making decisions for [["in behalf of") many.

I'm not grabbing any pitchforks and lamps over what DTE did here. I don't see it as the culprit in this Highland Park thing. Look to City Hall.

[Trumpeteer]

Jesus Christ, what a load of shit. As if Highland Park were a person, set out on a shoplifting spree. It's not like they didn't have a couple of Fortune 500 companies pull out and leave followed by a bunch of smaller industries followed by numerous retail businesses followed by most of their upper and middle-income taxpayers. "Their own free will"?

The city used the service and didn't pay for it..what a "load of shit"!!

[Detroitnerd]

It would be impossible to argue some of these concepts with you because some are so vague they could literally be worked into any point. It reads like a hodgepodge of philosophy, though there are some interesting ideas. I get the few corporate shareholders making decisions for large numbers of "stakeholders", but how is that any different than anything? Small numbers of people making decisions for [["in behalf of") many.

I'm not grabbing any pitchforks and lamps over what DTE did here. I don't see it as the culprit in this Highland Park thing. Look to City Hall.

I just wanted to throw out there that things aren't always so "inevitable." I also think we've all been so bombarded with "free-market" propaganda over the last 40 years that we forget there are other options, other ways of organizing ourselves and our society. I argue enough on here, but did want to point out that there are such things as "economic justice" -- and that the plantation comment did have a good point, though poorly made.

Anyway, one of the major political problems with HP, as I mentioned before, is named Art Blackwell ... Thanks a lot, Gran-hole...

[Scottathew]

Highland Park freely used a product at their own free will, did not pay for that product for a considerable length of time, and the provider simply removed the product from the streets as is their absolute right. There is NOT a free ride unless you're the "less fortunate". BTW if some of you are so incredibly generous to offer to pay the stunning amount of ".50 cents more a month" on your power bill to make sure the poor have streetlights in HP, that would take a couple of million of you "progressives" to even make up what is legally owed! Step it up and make it $10 a month unless it's difficult to be generous with anything other than someone else's money.

Yup.

I just simply don't understand why it's so outrageous that DTE won't provide service for free. If lighting was a huge priority for Highland Park, they would pay the bill.

Why should I have to pay to subsidize lighting in Highland Park? It's there choice what services that they'll have.

I just don't buy the whole "oh, these people have it so rough so we should force everyone to give them free stuff" argument.

If you are feeling charitable, donate to a charity of your choice. My wife and I often donate to our favorite charities, but we do so of our own free will, no one tells us what, how much, and to who we donate to.

If lighting is so important, FUND IT.

[Trumpeteer]

@48091 - Don't confuse them with the FACTS.

[Zacha341]

Sooo, has anyone driven thru HP since the lighting, and poles have been removed? I was on the bus [[the DDOT Hamilton line) and noted the square 'stumps' where the poles once were along Hamilton Ave. Once we crossed into Detroit the poles reappeared. Hamilton was pretty vacant and dark with the few lights it once had. Got to be pretty weird thru there without lighting. Are the poles gone along Woodward was well up the Calvert [[the Detroit border)?

[313WX]

Sooo, has anyone driven thru HP since the lighting, and poles have been removed? I was on the bus [[the DDOT Hamilton line) and noted the square 'stumps' where the poles once were along Hamilton Ave. Once we crossed into Detroit the poles reappeared. Hamilton was pretty vacant and dark with the few lights it once had. Got to be pretty weird thru there without lighting. Are the poles gone along Woodward was well up the Calvert [[the Detroit border)?

Yes.

They only had the wooden poles in place sporadically [[like you see now down Van Dyke).

They're still along Woodward, but that's about it.

[Zacha341]

So, there's no lighting along Woodward Ave. thru HP now? I am not driving right now and have not driven thru there at night lately.

Yes.

They only had the wooden poles in place sporadically [[like you see now down Van Dyke).

They're still along Woodward, but that's about it.

[313WX]

So, there's no lighting along Woodward Ave. thru HP now? I am not driving right now and have not driven thru there at night lately.

The last time I drove through HP was during the day time, so I couldn't answer that.

[Yooper]

One of my buddies from college lived in Highland Park. Good times there one Thanksgiving in 1984. My mom was ill.
His buddies, his sisters' friends and I from the area hit some local places. Walked everywhere...kids having fun.

Henceforth, his parents passed away and he sold out to move to GPW.
We drove through his old neighborhood last summer.
Hadn't seen it in years.
Wow.

I have taken my kids to Chi, Minni, Milwaukee and Boston.
Never thought of safety.

Then there is Detroit.

Just plain scary.

Perhaps the weirdest destination in the US.

That's why the artsy kids are coming in.
Bukowski would have warned them no doubt.