DTE Reposses Highland Park Street Lights

[Islandman]

So how would you feel if this was done to, say, fire hydrants for lack of payment of water in a particular city?

[Detroitnerd]

So how would you feel if this was done to, say, fire hydrants for lack of payment of water in a particular city?

That's another thing. WHY AM I PAYING FOR FIRE HYDRANTS IN PLACES WHERE POOR PEOPLE LIVE! SOCIALISM!

[Scottathew]

So how would you feel if this was done to, say, fire hydrants for lack of payment of water in a particular city?

If I were a city, I would exercise the ability to make that bill a priority! Just as I would choose to pay my Mortgage and car note before I would pay for Cable and Netflix.


Keep in mind, this situation is a little different. In my city, we own the light poles and fire hydrants.

However, in Highland Park, DTE owned the light poles. They removed unused light poles to reduce liabilities and to get scrap money from something that won't be used as a source of light again.

Removing the light poles might actually save people from death\injury in the instance of a vehicle leaving the road surface. If Highland Park won't pay to energize the poles, then the poles have no purpose.

[Scottathew]

That's another thing. WHY AM I PAYING FOR FIRE HYDRANTS IN PLACES WHERE POOR PEOPLE LIVE! SOCIALISM!

You don't. Hydrants are owned locally in most cases with a few exceptions [[below-grade interstate freeways).

[Detroitnerd]

You don't. Hydrants are owned locally in most cases with a few exceptions [[below-grade interstate freeways).

But in Detroit, there are POOR PEOPLE who are NOT PAYING THEIR TAXES. Therefore, it's SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! I don't want a PENNY of my money to benefit poor people in ANY WAY! EVERYBODY PAY FOR HIS OWN! ME! MINE! MINE!

[Scottathew]

But in Detroit, there are POOR PEOPLE who are NOT PAYING THEIR TAXES. Therefore, it's SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! I don't want a PENNY of my money to benefit poor people in ANY WAY! EVERYBODY PAY FOR HIS OWN! ME! MINE! MINE!

In Detroit they already own their hydrants. Also, Detroit owns the water system, so it's not possible for the city to not pay itself, if that makes sense, although I'm sure they move some imaginary dollars around on spreadsheet to pay themselves.

Although, guessing by your tone you don't want to seriously discuss this topic with anyone that dares to have a different opinion than you. I've been more than respectful to you, and I've even admitted that some of your points are good. I then further explained my point of view, and you have responded by mocking me and putting words into my mouth. I have not called anyone a socialist here.

[Detroitnerd]

Although, guessing by your tone you don't want to seriously discuss this topic with anyone that dares to have a different opinion than you. I've been more than respectful to you, and I've even admitted that some of your points are good. I then further explained my point of view, and you have responded by mocking me and putting words into my mouth. I have not called anyone a socialist here.

Hahaha. As if "socialist" were a slur.

[Scottathew]

Hahaha. As if "socialist" were a slur.

Nope, but applying labels instead of debating is not good. You're trying to pretend that I throw around labels instead of debating, which I do not.

When in fact, the only person that veers away from debating the topic and into childish games is you, not me.

[Danny]

It's ok to be Socialist.

[DC48080]

I agree. I think it's outrageous that my tax dollars are paying for roads in the state of Michigan, 99 percent of which I DO NOT USE. Why should the costs of all these roads be stretched across all of these people who do not use them? I never go north of Mackinac, and seldom north of Saginaw. What the f*ck are my tax dollars doing paying for roads I will never, ever use? That's socialism, pure and simple!

You are conflating services provided by government with those provided by businesses. Goverment has an obligation to provide certain things such as roads, fire hydrants etc.

DTE is not a municipal utility. DTE is a business and is owned by the shareholders who invest in it. They are in no way obligated to furnish their product without being paid for it.

What a shame that all wisdom must die with you.

[Detroitnerd]

Nope, but applying labels instead of debating is not good. You're trying to pretend that I throw around labels instead of debating, which I do not.

The only place where I have called you a socialist is in your fevered imagination.

When in fact, the only person that veers away from debating the topic and into childish games is you, not me.

You haven't been around here long, have you? Ideas proposed on this board are open to mockery, lampooning, burlesque and caricature. Oh, sure, there are rules on here, but DetroitYES! ain't Meet the Press. We sometimes have ... what is it called? ... oh, yes: FUN. Sorry if you don't approve.

[Detroitnerd]

You are conflating services provided by government with those provided by businesses. Goverment has an obligation to provide certain things such as roads, fire hydrants etc.

DTE is not a municipal utility. DTE is a business and is owned by the shareholders who invest in it. They are in no way obligated to furnish their product without being paid for it.

I know this one. Privatize the profitable enterprises. Socialize the money-losing enterprises. Same old story...

[DC48080]

I know this one. Privatize the profitable enterprises. Socialize the money-losing enterprises. Same old story...

I don't believe that you understand that meaning of "privatized". Please see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privatized for a definition.

DTE was never "privatized". If you trace the history of the company to its founding you will know that it was never pubicly owned. http://dteenergy.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=44

I hate to repeat myself but: What a shame that all wisdom must die with you.

[Detroitnerd]

I don't believe that you understand that meaning of "privatized". Please see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privatized for a definition.

DTE was never "privatized". If you trace the history of the company to its founding you will know that it was never pubicly owned. http://dteenergy.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=44

Yes. What is the need to privatize that which is already private?

"Privatize profit; socialize loss" is an old tactic to destroy the potential of economic democracy. It's not a way of saying DTE was privatized.

But you could observe that, over 100 years, DTE has consistently enjoyed the profitable part of the business -- providing electricity to those who can pay for it -- while its public competitor, DPL, has been increasingly saddled with the unprofitable job -- providing lighting and power to a city that is broke.

Or, for a better example, look at the railroads. They were making plenty of money hauling freight as private companies, but were increasingly losing money on passenger service. So, about 40 years ago, the feds took over unprofitable passenger service. Privatize the profit; socialize the loss.

Or look at automobiles. It is not profitable to build roads. It is, however, profitable to build cars that need roads to run on. Therefore, in the 1910s, government became the largest contractor in the country, building all these roads. The automobile companies made billions. Privatize the profit; socialize the loss.

That's where I'm coming from when I say that.

[DC48080]

Detroit Public Lighting is a governmental entity providing power to government owned facilities such as Detroit city buildings, parts of Wayne State, and many traffic lights in the city. They were doing this long before the city was broke. They were doing this during the times when Detroit was humming along with 1.8 million residents and when it was one of the wealthiest cities in the country. If Detroit, Wayne State and the other users of the DPL wanted to switch to DTE I am sure that they would be welcomed with open arms. But it is not DTE's responsibility to provide services to a "broke" city or any other customer that cannot pay their bills.


Your analogy about automobiles/roads is lacking. Roads [[other than toll roads) are built by the government and paid for through taxes, largely by the people who use them. A good chunk of these funds comes from gas taxes and license registration fees and local millages voted on by local residentts.

And those jobs from "the largest contractor in the country" put food on the table for the workers. Isn't that what everyone seems to want these days, a job created for them by government?

[SWMAP]

You haven't been around here long, have you? Ideas proposed on this board are open to mockery, lampooning, burlesque and caricature. Oh, sure, there are rules on here, but DetroitYES! ain't Meet the Press. We sometimes have ... what is it called? ... oh, yes: FUN. Sorry if you don't approve.

You can't have any sort of adult discussion here when Detroitnerd gets in. He revels in adolescent "gotchas" and ha-ha's. If you ever taught in a high-school you would recognize his type of superficial argument and retort and clowning for the class.

He has caused a lot of very good thinkers and posters to move on from this forum. Best to ignore him and go around him.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit Public Lighting is a governmental entity providing power to government owned facilities such as Detroit city buildings, parts of Wayne State, and many traffic lights in the city. They were doing this long before the city was broke. They were doing this during the times when Detroit was humming along with 1.8 million residents and when it was one of the wealthiest cities in the country.

Yes, but I'm talking about the transformation they've gone through, especially over the last 40 years. For 40 years, that "free-market" jazz has been up in the saddle, and it's interesting to note that, originally designed as public competition for the private monopoly, it has been saddled with unprofitable stuff. And it fits in with that trend.

Your analogy about automobiles/roads is lacking. Roads [[other than toll roads) are built by the government and paid for through taxes, largely by the people who use them. A good chunk of these funds comes from gas taxes and license registration fees and local millages voted on by local residentts.

Roads do not make money. There is no way to build a road that makes money, unless we're talking about crude 19th century plank roads with tollhouses. You take the unprofitable part and give that to the public, which is then on the hook for them. Meanwhile, the automobile companies get, essentially, a free ride to make billions. Since we, the taxpayers, have altered the entire landscape of America for the automobile companies, what have they to offer us? This is out of the question. They're private. Therefore, you can't meddle with them. All we've done is create the conditions in which they can prosper.

And those jobs from "the largest contractor in the country" put food on the table for the workers. Isn't that what everyone seems to want these days, a job created for them by government?

I think a growing number of people in this country would like to see the federal government get into the employment business again. Private capital won't do it; in hard times, they sit on their money. State governments often can't go into debt to pay for it. Local governments are too small to do it. Why not have the federal government put us to work? Worked for us under FDR...

[Detroitnerd]

You haven't been around here long, have you? Ideas proposed on this board are open to mockery, lampooning, burlesque and caricature. Oh, sure, there are rules on here, but DetroitYES! ain't Meet the Press. We sometimes have ... what is it called? ... oh, yes: FUN. Sorry if you don't approve.

You can't have any sort of adult discussion here when Detroitnerd gets in. He revels in adolescent "gotchas" and ha-ha's. If you ever taught in a high-school you would recognize his type of superficial argument and retort and clowning for the class.

He has caused a lot of very good thinkers and posters to move on from this forum. Best to ignore him and go around him.

SWMAP, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. If you're at all familiar with this forum, you'll know I've contributed lots of fact, history and anecdote. Drove out of my way to take pictures when other people wanted them. Visited the library and reported back when somebody had a stubborn question. Offered insights from dead people you'll never know. I read widely about Detroit and its history and am often helpful here. Fact is, a lot of the most reactionary people on this board are appalled I have the temerity to tweak their noses. So be it. I consider their scorn an honor.

[ferntruth]

You say this as if the people of Highland Park didn't pay the bill personally. For those who live in the city and pay taxes, why should they be punished by having their public safety put in jeopardy by lack of light?

The city of Highland Park did not pay the bill, correct? The city allowed the amount owed to DTE to continue to climb without any real plan to reduce or payoff the debt.
That has consequences. The fact that the people of HIghland Park are caught up in this is a matter for them to take up with their city leadership [[whats left of it anyway).

You can try to make this into anything you want, but the fact remains - not paying a bill [[who ever is not paying it, city, individual or corporation) has consequences.

[ferntruth]

SWMAP, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. If you're at all familiar with this forum, you'll know I've contributed lots of fact, history and anecdote. Drove out of my way to take pictures when other people wanted them. Visited the library and reported back when somebody had a stubborn question. Offered insights from dead people you'll never know. I read widely about Detroit and its history and am often helpful here. Fact is, a lot of the most reactionary people on this board are appalled I have the temerity to tweak their noses. So be it. I consider their scorn an honor.

Good thing you don't think too highly of yourself....

[Detroitnerd]

Good thing you don't think too highly of yourself....

OK, that's pretty funny.

[Jimaz]

I don't suppose moonlight towers would help, would they?

[Scottathew]

Fact is, a lot of the most reactionary people on this board are appalled I have the temerity to tweak their noses. So be it. I consider their scorn an honor.

The fact is, that you're a very smart person that has valuable view points. You know how to express your views, but when someone respectfully challenges your view points you resort to sarcasm, all caps, mockery, and other tactics that degrade the conversation.

While we don't agree, I respect and value your opinion. I've got strong opinions on a lot of things, but I still have an open mind.

I'd rather debate the topics than sarcastically throw around labels and put words in mouths of people.

[Scottathew]

The city of Highland Park did not pay the bill, correct? The city allowed the amount owed to DTE to continue to climb without any real plan to reduce or payoff the debt.
That has consequences. The fact that the people of HIghland Park are caught up in this is a matter for them to take up with their city leadership [[whats left of it anyway).

You can try to make this into anything you want, but the fact remains - not paying a bill [[who ever is not paying it, city, individual or corporation) has consequences.

You are correct. The fact is, that DTE did in fact work with Highland Park, even during extended periods of non-payment.

DTE didn't just cut them off after the first unpaid bill. They wanted to find the best possible outcome. That outcome is having a reduced amount of lights in the most key places.

Folks want to demonize DTE for being the big-bad utility, but I just don't buy those arguments. Facts are, DTE gave them grace periods, and even worked with Highland Park to find at least a compromised solution.

If the folks of Highland Park find public lighting to be as high of a priority as folks on this board do then they would be perfectly within their right to to find or create funds to pay for the lighting system that they want.

Highland Park, however, is simply not entitled to a free lighting system or free electricity. I wish them the best, but they control their destiny and their decision's negative results should not be subsidized.

[casscorridor]

I like how many people on here think its totally justifiable that Highland Park had their street lights ripped out and sold by scrap metal by a huge corporation. Like totally, the people of Highland Park's fault. JUST GET A JOB N BUY A PORCH LIGHT. And while you are at it, since you have no food stamps or welfare, GET TO GROWIN, THE PLANTATION IS BACK

^fucked up