Snyder's thinking of raising fees and privatizing roadwork.

[EL Jimbo]

You're right. It's those damned MDOT engineers, laying around doing nothing, looking out for the public interest, who are killing the State of Michigan. They should be compensated as if they were migrant farm workers.

Hey, there are transportation planners at MDOT too. I know a lot of people who would want people to remember that not everyone at MDOT is an engineer.

[coracle]

You're right. It's those damned MDOT engineers, laying around doing nothing, looking out for the public interest, who are killing the State of Michigan. They should be compensated as if they were migrant farm workers.

That's interesting gp. You obviously know more in detail about MDOT Engineers than I [[maybe you are one). i wasn't suggesting they are "laying about doing nothing" [[there's a comma after "Unions") like you say they are; thats something new to me. I'm suggesting [[unsuccessfully) we should invest our tax dollars directly in the Private rather than the Public Sector to build up corporations that might make profit and pay meaningful taxes.

[ghettopalmetto]

That's interesting gp. You obviously know more in detail about MDOT Engineers than I [[maybe you are one). i wasn't suggesting they are "laying about doing nothing" [[there's a comma after "Unions") like you say they are; thats something new to me. I'm suggesting [[unsuccessfully) we should invest our tax dollars directly in the Private rather than the Public Sector to build up corporations that might make profit and pay meaningful taxes.

Where have you been the last three years, buddy? All we've done is invest public money in private corporations [[i.e. SUBSIDIZE THE HELL OUT OF THEM). You ever hear of a little outfit called AIG? Bank of America? General Motors? Chrysler? TexacoChevron? Archer Daniels Midland? B Fucking P???

How about [[and I know this sounds INSANE), for once, we invest *public* money in the *public* good???

[rb336]

. we are investing ours in Public Sector Wages and Pensions, Unions, people who layabout doing nothing and non achievers in general to the detriment of the Private Sector that is taxed to make the whole thing work - or not!

#1 - road construction workers in Europe, Japan and Australia earn more than their US counterparts in total compensation
#2 - have you EVER done road work? try sitting behind a track paver on a 90 degree + humid day sometime. you would last, maybe, half a minute. you might last 2 minutes on a concrete project.

KUDOS to the michigan road crews who have gotten major projects - like I-75 in HP and the Southfield - done EARLY and UNDER BUDGET

[EL Jimbo]

That's interesting gp. You obviously know more in detail about MDOT Engineers than I [[maybe you are one). i wasn't suggesting they are "laying about doing nothing" [[there's a comma after "Unions") like you say they are; thats something new to me. I'm suggesting [[unsuccessfully) we should invest our tax dollars directly in the Private rather than the Public Sector to build up corporations that might make profit and pay meaningful taxes.

Supporting companies is done by helping increase their profits. The question remains, how do you do this? It's simple really. Either you reduce costs or increase sales. Investing in transportation helps companies costs. The life blood of any economy is the ability to efficiently move people, goods, services, and ideas from one point to another. By increasing efficiency through safer transportation corridors that are not congested and are in good condition so they won't cause undue vehicle wear transportation costs for people and companies go down and profits go up. One little discussed element of our tremendous economic growth in the second half of the 20th century is that the construction of the Interstate Highway System lowered transportation costs by 48%. This had an enormous affect on profitability.

The other way to help companies is to increase sales. Unfortunately, with the middle class taking such a wallop in job losses and stagnant wages for such a long time, it is hard to drive up demand and sales. That's one of the reasons why I laugh at the GOP's rebranding of the wealthy as "jobs creators". The wealthy don't create jobs. Demand creates jobs. And the number one group of consumers that drive demand are the middle class. That means if you want to help businesses then you find some way to get the middle class jobs and get them better wages.

Trickle-down, supply side, "Reagonomics" simply hasn't worked.

[coracle]

The middle class in the Public Sector haven't taken a wallop in job losses and stagnant wages or pensions in a long time El Jimbo, and they don't have to make a product that needs selling. Until a sale is made nobody gets paid - except Public Sector workers - so my point is that the Private Sector workers that drive the economy should be better compensated than those that live only off the Private Sector efforts. I'm not referring to individuals but rather the Sectors. As far as trickle-down is concerned I think the current regime is sliding it sideways to their chosen recipients which includes the Public Sector, and producing trickle - up poverty.

[EL Jimbo]

The middle class in the Public Sector haven't taken a wallop in job losses and stagnant wages or pensions in a long time El Jimbo, and they don't have to make a product that needs selling. Until a sale is made nobody gets paid - except Public Sector workers - so my point is that the Private Sector workers that drive the economy should be better compensated than those that live only off the Private Sector efforts. I'm not referring to individuals but rather the Sectors. As far as trickle-down is concerned I think the current regime is sliding it sideways to their chosen recipients which includes the Public Sector, and producing trickle - up poverty.

Well you are just kidding yourself about public sector workers not taking a wallop. Sure, you may have these politicos like that woman who got the $200k severance package from Wayne County, but the real, rank and file public workers are taking their licks too and have been since LONG before the economy went south for the private sector.

Take state workers as an example and lets look at what they've given up over the past decade plus all the way back to 1997 when the Michigan economy was roaring.

-Pensions phased out for 401K programs
-Increases to health care payments
-furlough days
-"banked leave" which meant working 40 hours but only getting paid for 38.
-a non-negotiated 3% tax on wages to "pay for retirement health care" that the State Court of Appeals has ruled to be unconstitutional and is on its way to the Michigan Supreme Court
-layoffs and two rounds of earlier retirements that have eliminated over 11,000 positions [[roughly 18% of the workforce) since 2001
-All departments are also currently going through a reorganizations that will likely eliminate more positions.
-Pay that has not kept up with the private sector or inflation for decades
-All told, state employees have given over $750M in concessions since 2000

Also, why is it that a private sector worker MUST be compensated more than a public sector worker? What does the engineer that works for a consultant firm do that is so much more valuable than the engineer that works for MDOT?

Should a Mall Cop be paid more than a prison guard? After all they are both essentially just guards and the Mall Cop works for the private sector so he has his capitalism merit badge right?

Should the mercenary working for Blackwater be paid more than the enlisted soldier fighting for his/her country?

This is the thing that pisses me off about people who accuse public employees of "living off" the private sector. It's as if Public Employees are simply taking a hand out and not producing any effort through labor that merits compensation. Public employees, just like their private sector counterparts produce products and provide services through their labor. For their efforts they are paid a wage. That is no different than anyone else.

Lastly, as a general rule, public employees are already paid 5% less in total compensation [[combined wages and benefits) than their private sector counterparts of equal education, age, and experience. This ratio actually tends to get worse for public employees the more education they have [[meaning doctors, lawyers, engineers, planners, etc)

Bottom line is that you need to become better acquainted with the facts of the situation before you start talking about things you don't know about.