America's Most Dangerous Cities, 2011

[English]

Every single last person on this thread who referred to Black culture revealed their biases. Those of you referring to majority Black culture don't even know what the heck it is.

I've traveled quite a bit. Unlike many of you, I love all kinds of people. But I also love being around black people, any black people, all around the Diaspora. I attended a historically Black college. I identify as American first, and Black American after that. I love the United States, and I love my cultural heritage. I'm completely comfortable in my skin, and I do not deal with people who are uncomfortable with it. I'd put my maternal family story up against any other in this country. From my great-great grandparents who walked out of the fields 150 years ago where they were enumerated with the cattle and hogs, to my generation of entrepreneurs, truck drivers, scholars, and political strategists, but yes, also jailbirds, hustlers, and ne'er-do-wells, all of it -- all of them -- are me.

Many people at DYes, at this university, and around the world, are personally offended by that story. Something about our story makes them feel deeply uncomfortable, deeply unsettled by another manifestation of humanity, another existential frame, another lifeworld that is always [[and will ever be) a complete mystery to them.

You know, I'm always amused by the notion that only nonblacks have cultures that are worthwhile. Look at Detroit, we hear. Look at Haiti. Look at Africa. I also understand that some of you deeply believe that the so-called Third World and those of us with some "Third World" ancestry are less than the rest of you. Less moral. Less intelligent. Less responsible. If only, good and honest and true people sigh, if only they could be more white. The only ones who succeed are those who adapt to us. Do what we do. And of course, they will agree with us about how deficient black culture is. Affirm that the way we see things is the only way.

That's what's wrong with those Detroiters. They ran the city into the ground, tore up all the homes, looted all the money, and now it's a shadow of its former self. It will never come back. Black people ruin everything they touch. Darn black people.

[[Did I cover all my bases? Yes, I think so.)

Now that we've got all that out the way, can we have a real conversation about the following?

--the fact that the deindustrialization of Detroit is one of the first signal events of the dismantling of the American middle class

--the fact that we are quickly learning that industrial civilization, and all of its trappings, as birthed in Europe a few centuries ago, may not be the penultimate chapter of human history

--the fact that industrial civilization, for all its benefits, may be the eventual cause of our species' extinction

--why the powers that be have taken a sudden interest in certain areas of Detroit

--whether finger-wagging in the leafy green 'burbs, tongues flapping on 2-4-and-7, ink spilled [[real or virtual) in the Freep or News will make those unable or unwilling to work find a job that pays a living wage

--whether the same will stop someone determined to bash your head in from bashing it in

--whether or not the way that our nation currently conceives of racial, ethnic, religious, class, gender, cognitive, emotional, and sexual differences is infinitely sustainable

--whether or not the common sense and conventional wisdom that sustained and comforted mid-20th century Americans are still applicable 50-70 years later

--whether or not Detroit was different from other, comparable cities in the past, and why

--whether or not Detroit is different from other, comparable cities of today, and why

--whether or not Detroit will be different from other, comparable cities in the future, and why


Those are all conversations I'm interested in having. I am no more interested in having conversations about degenerate, dehumanized Black people than anyone here is interested in talking about whether or not White people smell when they're wet, or are as good in bed as we are. Both lines of thinking are equally offensive, equally stereotypical, equally untrue, and equally counterproductive. I don't care if you are convinced that Black people are at the bottom of humanity, realize that there are at least a billion members of your species who don't exactly see you as the crown of creation, either...

And get over it.

And work to CHANGE this city, this state, this nation, and this world. That is THE only conversation today's young people are interested in having.

You all can continue this white/black thinking if you want to. Some people in 1911 didn't realize that the Victorian era had ended. The rest of the world will move on without you if you keep this up.

[English]

I don't even think most of you are ready to have this conversation. And that, my friends, is why Detroit will never come back.

[detroitpride313]

"I think that the majority Black culture is just not attractive to most non-black families [[so now we are past the tipping point of possible diverse neighborhoods).

I think that "diversity" is a dis-credited ideal. This from someone who once championed it. I admit that I am very disillusioned. It's just too hard to keep a good attitude about Detroit when you look around. From the neighborhoods to the endless corruptions in City hall, its just a rat-hole of a City, this "blackest" city in America and proud of it.

I understand the fact that you are upset with the conditions of the neighborhoods and City hall [[as am I), but I still want to stress that this is not due to Black culture. This is due to ignorance and the "ghetto mentality" that has pervaded this city and many other urban areas. It's insulting to hear someone say that the ignorant behavior they see is my culture. I don't like this behavior anymore than you do and in fact I hate it more than you do because it causes people like you to label Blacks and Black Culture. Please don't label a group of people and their culture [[especially one you know little about...if you think this is black culture then you really know nothing about it and shouldn't be talking about it) by the actions of some members of the community that you see or by the garbage you see on tv, movies, or what you hear on the radio.

[detroitpride313]

Every single last person on this thread who referred to Black culture revealed their biases. Those of you referring to majority Black culture don't even know what the heck it is.

And work to CHANGE this city, this state, this nation, and this world. That is THE only conversation today's young people are interested in having.

You all can continue this white/black thinking if you want to. Some people in 1911 didn't realize that the Victorian era had ended. The rest of the world will move on without you if you keep this up.

Thank you so much...this is what I have been trying to get people on this thread to see! I agree with this quoted above and everything you have said in between. And yes, the only thing that I am interested in is trying to change this city as opposed to just sitting around complaining and pointing fingers at people for the problems in this city.

[brizee]

Every single last person on this thread who referred to Black culture revealed their biases. Those of you referring to majority Black culture don't even know what the heck it is.

I've traveled quite a bit. Unlike many of you, I love all kinds of people. But I also love being around black people, any black people, all around the Diaspora. I attended a historically Black college. I identify as American first, and Black American after that. I love the United States, and I love my cultural heritage. I'm completely comfortable in my skin, and I do not deal with people who are uncomfortable with it. I'd put my maternal family story up against any other in this country. From my great-great grandparents who walked out of the fields 150 years ago where they were enumerated with the cattle and hogs, to my generation of entrepreneurs, truck drivers, scholars, and political strategists, but yes, also jailbirds, hustlers, and ne'er-do-wells, all of it -- all of them -- are me.

Many people at DYes, at this university, and around the world, are personally offended by that story. Something about our story makes them feel deeply uncomfortable, deeply unsettled by another manifestation of humanity, another existential frame, another lifeworld that is always [[and will ever be) a complete mystery to them.

You know, I'm always amused by the notion that only nonblacks have cultures that are worthwhile. Look at Detroit, we hear. Look at Haiti. Look at Africa. I also understand that some of you deeply believe that the so-called Third World and those of us with some "Third World" ancestry are less than the rest of you. Less moral. Less intelligent. Less responsible. If only, good and honest and true people sigh, if only they could be more white. The only ones who succeed are those who adapt to us. Do what we do. And of course, they will agree with us about how deficient black culture is. Affirm that the way we see things is the only way.

That's what's wrong with those Detroiters. They ran the city into the ground, tore up all the homes, looted all the money, and now it's a shadow of its former self. It will never come back. Black people ruin everything they touch. Darn black people.

[[Did I cover all my bases? Yes, I think so.)

Now that we've got all that out the way, can we have a real conversation about the following?

--the fact that the deindustrialization of Detroit is one of the first signal events of the dismantling of the American middle class

--the fact that we are quickly learning that industrial civilization, and all of its trappings, as birthed in Europe a few centuries ago, may not be the penultimate chapter of human history

--the fact that industrial civilization, for all its benefits, may be the eventual cause of our species' extinction

--why the powers that be have taken a sudden interest in certain areas of Detroit

--whether finger-wagging in the leafy green 'burbs, tongues flapping on 2-4-and-7, ink spilled [[real or virtual) in the Freep or News will make those unable or unwilling to work find a job that pays a living wage

--whether the same will stop someone determined to bash your head in from bashing it in

--whether or not the way that our nation currently conceives of racial, ethnic, religious, class, gender, cognitive, emotional, and sexual differences is infinitely sustainable

--whether or not the common sense and conventional wisdom that sustained and comforted mid-20th century Americans are still applicable 50-70 years later

--whether or not Detroit was different from other, comparable cities in the past, and why

--whether or not Detroit is different from other, comparable cities of today, and why

--whether or not Detroit will be different from other, comparable cities in the future, and why


Those are all conversations I'm interested in having. I am no more interested in having conversations about degenerate, dehumanized Black people than anyone here is interested in talking about whether or not White people smell when they're wet, or are as good in bed as we are. Both lines of thinking are equally offensive, equally stereotypical, equally untrue, and equally counterproductive. I don't care if you are convinced that Black people are at the bottom of humanity, realize that there are at least a billion members of your species who don't exactly see you as the crown of creation, either...

And get over it.

And work to CHANGE this city, this state, this nation, and this world. That is THE only conversation today's young people are interested in having.

You all can continue this white/black thinking if you want to. Some people in 1911 didn't realize that the Victorian era had ended. The rest of the world will move on without you if you keep this up.

Good post.

It sometimes seems like black folks really are incapable of just being seen as people. We get talked about like neanderthals or sasquatch.

Why do we get lumped in as a block?
Why do I have to answer for the behavior of every brother I don't know?

Maybe the melanin really does cross the visual and critical thinking signals being sent to the brain. I see a group of kids playing, a middle age white guy sees "oh look at those animals, they're just animals."

We want to make life intolerable for nonblack people.
We all have the same opinions and beliefs and are part of "The Mildred Gaddis audience".
We are absolutely incapable of voting for official not in possesion of African ancestry.
We enjoy feeding on economic scraps and depending on assistance because it's comfortable and we're lazy.
We're always trying to get "revenge" on white people.
etc...
etc...
etc...

[DetroitPole]

Maybe the melanin really does cross the visual and critical thinking signals being sent to the brain. I see a group of kids playing, a middle age white guy sees "oh look at those animals, they're just animals."

Talk about revealing biases. Double standard? Guess you have middle-aged white guys all figured out.

On a practical level, good luck in the national elections. As much joy as you're taking in saying "fuck all you biased white people and your industrial society", well, we're all stuck here. Look forward to a neo-fascist tea partier in '12 when all your lib white allies get sick of getting lectured on how they're just bigots anyway and stay home.

[SWMAP]

DetroitPride313: I hear you and I do agree that not all should be judged by the actions of some. I do know that there are middle-class blacks and there is the ghetto culture. I am sure, though, that MLK and Jessie Jackson and other [[outdated) leaders wouldn't approve of setting up such divisions in the black community. I am interested that you are.

English, you infer that you know [[from your exalted position in academia) what conversation "young people" are interested in having [[as if we cannot read the signs of the times as well as you can) and that it is more enlightened and more advanced than the conversation here -that people not as enlightened as "young people" are going to be left in the dust. How do you explain away, then, what is reported this week about racism and hate on the campus at one of Michigan's largest universities? Those "young people" do not seem so enlightened as you would like us to believe that demographic is, as opposed to us older, disillusioned people.

[iheartthed]

DetroitPride313: I hear you and I do agree that not all should be judged by the actions of some. I do know that there are middle-class blacks and there is the ghetto culture. I am sure, though, that MLK and Jessie Jackson and other [[outdated) leaders wouldn't approve of setting up such divisions in the black community. I am interested that you are.

Who cares what MLK and Jesse Jackson think? Who anointed Jesse Jackson as King of black people? You have said some very stupid and shallow things in this thread. No wonder your neighbors don't like you. Newsflash: You're racist! They blast they're music in the middle of the night because they don't like you, and considering the things you've said in this thread... It sounds like your ghetto black neighbors have good reason for it! The only thing in this thread even remotely as annoying as your stupid and shallow opinion are the people who feel that it is even worth trying to convince someone like you that "all black people aren't the same". Who the fuck cares what you think about black people?

[Downtown Lady]

I do know that there are middle-class blacks and there is the ghetto culture. I am sure, though, that MLK and Jessie Jackson and other [[outdated) leaders wouldn't approve of setting up such divisions in the black community. I am interested that you are.

That doesn't even make sense. Your statement implies that people should all be lumped together, lest it be seen as classist or elitist. How about the notion that not everyone is cut from the same cloth, that people are individuals first and foremost?

[401don]

And now back to our program . . .

http://www.freep.com/article/2011100...xt|FRONTPAGE|s

[brizee]

Talk about revealing biases. Double standard? Guess you have middle-aged white guys all figured out.

On a practical level, good luck in the national elections. As much joy as you're taking in saying "fuck all you biased white people and your industrial society", well, we're all stuck here. Look forward to a neo-fascist tea partier in '12 when all your lib white allies get sick of getting lectured on how they're just bigots anyway and stay home.

First of all I was relaying an experience. Kids playing somehow are animals and it was spit out with venom.

Second of all you have no clue about my politics. I'm disappointed as hell in Obama and I'm most likely not voting in 2012.

Third I really don't give a shit about lecturing white people or anyone else on their bullshit. I get told how stupid I am for going to DPS? I get told by a 22 year old spoiled ass brat who just got a job how she subsidizes poor people having babies? I have to deal with supervisor speaking in hushed codewords like I really have no sense at all? I've had all of it done TO MY FACE with that stupid entitled naive tone. I just let em wallow in it. It's not my fucking job to beat sense and compassion and empathy into people.

PS. Some people are scared of calling racist bullshit for racist bullshit. You're white and actually have a clue about this countries repulsive history when it comes to the treatment of "the other", that's cool. You're white and believe those violent ungrateful lazy niggers are responsible for this country's/states/city's problems, that's cool too.

[SWMAP]

Iheartthed: I am not the only person in my neighborhood. If they were punishing me, as you hope, they were punishing a lot of other people, as well. And, I agree with you - Jackson is a has-been. But MLK. I think his opinions would still matter a great deal. I was very motivated by both of them 30 years ago. No longer so.

And I agree that no one should care what I think about black people. But I think you can look around and see that hardly anyone wants to live here in Detroit [[where I have always lived.). The discussion was whether Bill Bonds was correct that Detroit will never "come back." I said I agreed, finally.

By the way, i also no longer care about whether I am a "racist." That accusation does not sting. I used to think it was a moral issue. But I can't help but think that's outdated, too.

[Islandman]

This has devolved into a clusterfuck of a thread.

While I sympathize with SWMAP that being stuck in a block with these type of people is not fun [[had the same situation on my block with squatters this summer), it does not excuse your lumping together of all black people. Please don't try to validate with your deluded perception of what MLK and other would have approved of, as it you would know.

As with any subset of people, there will be those that just don't know how to act, period. The way some people were raised, as well as the environmental conditions of livng in an area where unemployment, drugs, welfare, and violence are rife and accepted by enough of a minority of folks to allow ignorant people to label it as a black cultural problem. Not so.

There are plenty of that go to work every day. There are plenty of us that pay bills, are responsible, etc. You simply cannot be held responsible for the actions of a few because of your color.

Take this from a guy that experienced racism from both black and white people growing up in the city.

[DetroitPole]

Third I really don't give a shit about lecturing white people or anyone else on their bullshit. I get told how stupid I am for going to DPS? I get told by a 22 year old spoiled ass brat who just got a job how she subsidizes poor people having babies? I have to deal with supervisor speaking in hushed codewords like I really have no sense at all? I've had all of it done TO MY FACE with that stupid entitled naive tone. I just let em wallow in it. It's not my fucking job to beat sense and compassion and empathy into people.

We're not going to agree on everything, but I hear you on that. Point well-taken.

[iheartthed]

Iheartthed: I am not the only person in my neighborhood. If they were punishing me, as you hope, they were punishing a lot of other people, as well. And, I agree with you - Jackson is a has-been. But MLK. I think his opinions would still matter a great deal. I was very motivated by both of them 30 years ago. No longer so.

I don't hope they are punishing you. I honestly don't care whether they are punishing you. It really isn't my problem. But if they respected you then they wouldn't treat you like that. Judging from your words here, it's not hard to imagine why they wouldn't respect you too much.

And I agree that no one should care what I think about black people. But I think you can look around and see that hardly anyone wants to live here in Detroit [[where I have always lived.). The discussion was whether Bill Bonds was correct that Detroit will never "come back." I said I agreed, finally.

Both you and Bill Bonds could use a nice history lesson if you think the reason Detroit de-populated was because of "the blacks". Let's just ignore the fact that blacks made up less than 20% of Detroit's population by the time the first couple hundred thousand residents started fleeing the city: http://detroit1701.org/Pop%20Econ%20Status_Race.html

By the way, i also no longer care about whether I am a "racist." That accusation does not sting. I used to think it was a moral issue. But I can't help but think that's outdated, too.

That's nice. I'm glad you embrace it. Likewise, since you don't give a fuck whether you are "racist", don't be surprised when they don't give a fuck what you think when they blast their music at 10pm.

[SWMAP]

Let me point out that i am still living in Detroit, still paying property and income taxes and millages.
As to my neighbors, I am sure that they had no idea about whether I am bothered by their behaviour. Certain that their noise wasn't aimed at me in any way. I just was one of many people on the block impacted by their behavior. They were just getting ready to go to the club.

[iheartthed]

Let me point out that i am still living in Detroit, still paying property and income taxes and millages.
As to my neighbors, I am sure that they had no idea about whether I am bothered by their behaviour. Certain that their noise wasn't aimed at me in any way. I just was one of many people on the block impacted by their behavior. They were just getting ready to go to the club.

Not sure what you paying taxes has to do with the price of tea in Wayne County. Does that mean you're somehow more entitled to your racist opinions? Also, I doubt that they are completely oblivious to your feelings about them.

[brizee]

We're not going to agree on everything, but I hear you on that. Point well-taken.

No problem. Thread was pissing me off and had to take a break for some HW.

Not sure what you paying taxes has to do with the price of tea in Wayne County. Does that mean you're somehow more entitled to your racist opinions? Also, I doubt that they are completely oblivious to your feelings about them.

What's the over/under that he asked them to chill or even spoke to them to let them know it was a problem?

[Crumbled_pavement]

I don't care if you are convinced that Black people are at the bottom of humanity, realize that there are at least a billion members of your species who don't exactly see you as the crown of creation, either...

It's official, English is now my favorite poster on this board. I just had to quote this piece here because it is so truthful. Everyone thinks their shit doesn't stink. It's ingrown into human nature.

As for the thread, no one should have to deal with the situation that SWMap is describing with his neighbors. I wonder though, if society in the 30s and 40s chose a path of demonizing bad behavior no matter what group of people the offenders belonged to instead of demonizing a race because of the lowest class members of that race, would Detroit have turned out different? Maybe instead of a city with a majority of low class earners [[no one mentioned that, we were too over worried that too many blacks were congregating in the same place at the same time - OMG, scary. Honey hold on tight to your purse!!!!), maybe the city would have maintained a middle class of many ethnicities who upheld a commonly accepted code of behavior and respect for one another.

What some people can't comprehend is when you have a large chunk of middle class people decide to abruptly move out of a neighborhood they depress the value of homes in that neighborhood. That allows people who otherwise couldn't afford the neighborhood to be able to buy into the neighborhood. Truth be told, those people moving in still can't afford the neighborhood, they simply can afford the house. The house, although, needs to be maintained. That's another cost though, that the incomers can't afford. Also, what about the businesses in that neighborhood that were used to catering to a wealthier customer base? They no longer have people in that neighborhood that can afford those businesses so those businesses have to move to where the money moved to. Years later you end up with ragedy run down houses and liquor stores and dollar stores on every corner. That leads the first pioneers that had moved out to hi-five each other and say, "glad we got out of that hell hole before those people took over and did what we knew they were going to do."

How about we start a crazy trend here that might not bring Detroit back per se, but might move our entire society forward. LET'S DEMONIZE BAD BEHAVIOR NO MATTER WHO IT IS? ALL US, ALL THE TIME EXPECTING ALL THE REST OF US TO MEET CERTAIN STANDARDS. I know, I know, something like that doesn't give the easy automatic satisfaction of just blaming all bad behavior on those darn black people.

[antongast]

Look forward to a neo-fascist tea partier in '12 when all your lib white allies get sick of getting lectured on how they're just bigots anyway and stay home.

If somebody self-identifies as a "lib white ally," and people are always pointing out to them that things they're saying are inappropriate and racist, that should inspire introspection on their part, not defensiveness. Otherwise they're kind of doing it wrong, wouldn't you say?

[urbanhat]

I don't even think most of you are ready to have this conversation. And that, my friends, is why Detroit will never come back.

English, well said, I agreed with everything you said--until here. I want to speak up as one of "today's young people" who want to look forward rather than dwell on the same black-white story of the past. Of course I think history is vitally important, but here we are not Israel/Palestine, we are not the Caucuses--we will move forward. It might take a generation, but it will happen.

Race takes on totally different meanings depending on where you are. It's unfortunate that in Detroit perceptions of race are still so crudely simplified, but it's not surprising given its history. It's unfortunate that so few Detroiters--black and white alike--have had the opportunity to live somewhere with more diverse conceptions about what is "black" and "white." It's not an excuse for the persistent racism, but it is an explanation.

Or maybe I just have a different perspective. In the two years I lived in Jamaica, nearly everyone I knew was black. [[I am Asian.) In that situation how could I possibly lump everyone I knew into some monolithic category? It wasn't that race ceased to be an issue [[I was constantly harassed for looking Chinese), but it was only one aspect, and "blackness" had multiple, far more nuanced meaning.

When I lived in Europe, as an Asian, many people assumed I was a Chinese immigrant, i.e., poor, uncultured, weird, not worth talking to.

Now I'm back in Detroit and suddenly I'm grouped with white people again. I'm now assumed to be privileged upper-middle class, even though in the 50s and 60s my family was the victim of racist housing discrimination just as violent as that against blacks.

What would happen if everyone--black and white--had to experience being on the other side? And not just being on the other side, but being in a situation where one's race means something totally different and unexpected? And what happens if Detroit continues to get an influx of Arabs and Hispanics, maybe some Brazilians and young people from LA and other multi-ethnic places. Would we then still be having the same conversation?