Official Development Rumors at Hudson's Site Thread

**ghettopalmetto** · October-26-11, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I thought it was mentioned on here that the site was only suitable for 15-20 stories max? Is there any confirmation on how big of a building can be put there? Are the sketches that were drawn up for the site still an option? I thought those were pretty cool looking.

Those columns could support about a 15-story office building. If it were residential, a few stories taller [[due to lower design live loads for residential structures).

With that said, it would be a waste to construct a smaller [[3-4 story) building on that site, given how much money has already been spent on structural steel. You'd want to fill out the block as high as possible to maximize return on investment.

**EL Jimbo** · October-26-11, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I think that a mutipurpose building should be built on that site. Three levels or retail space for one building. Loft living on the upper floors where if need be the lofts could be easily converted into office space or retail. The three levels of retail could hold some of the most expensive retail stores such as Macys, Norstroms, Neiman Marcus.

Perhaps some of what we saw from the CityLofts Somerset collection thing might end up becoming permanent?

**Gistok** · October-26-11, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I thought it was mentioned on here that the site was only suitable for 15-20 stories max? Is there any confirmation on how big of a building can be put there? Are the sketches that were drawn up for the site still an option? I thought those were pretty cool looking.

Yes... the 15-20 story limit is correct mikeg. I can't figure out why others have a problem with memory loss...

Those KDG sketches were only fantasy images.

**Dexlin** · October-27-11, 03:24 AM

The 15-20 stories line is ones that's been floating around ever since they began talking about building on the site a decade ago. It's one of those figures thrown out that no one seems to know quite where it came from, so I wouldn't take it as anything beyond heresay that's kind of become conventional wisdom.

**East Detroit** · October-27-11, 06:29 AM

I've heard about 15 stories about 15 stories.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-27-11, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

The 15-20 stories line is ones that's been floating around ever since they began talking about building on the site a decade ago. It's one of those figures thrown out that no one seems to know quite where it came from, so I wouldn't take it as anything beyond heresay that's kind of become conventional wisdom.

A little over ten years ago, I actually measured one of the column stubs with a tape measure I happened to have handy. From those measurements, I looked up the W-shape designation of the stubs in the AISC Manual. Knowing the shape [[and thus the geometric properties), column spacing, and the code design loads for office buildings, I back-calculated a maximum building height of 14 stories.

**bailey** · October-27-11, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Those columns could support about a 15-story office building. If it were residential, a few stories taller [[due to lower design live loads for residential structures).

With that said, it would be a waste to construct a smaller [[3-4 story) building on that site, given how much money has already been spent on structural steel. You'd want to fill out the block as high as possible to maximize return on investment.

While I agree with your point, I would just point out that whomever builds on the lot didn't invest in the steel so the roi isn't their concern. they're just going to build whatever they think they need. when has "waste" ever factored into any decision made in detroit?

**Det_ard** · October-27-11, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

While I agree with your point, I would just point out that whomever builds on the lot didn't invest in the steel so the roi isn't their concern. they're just going to build whatever they think they need. when has "waste" ever factored into any decision made in detroit?

Even if the eventual builder is the one who invested in the steel its a sunk cost so the money spend on that steel is not relevant to ROI on future projects.

**Gistok** · October-27-11, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

The 15-20 stories line is ones that's been floating around ever since they began talking about building on the site a decade ago. It's one of those figures thrown out that no one seems to know quite where it came from, so I wouldn't take it as anything beyond heresay that's kind of become conventional wisdom.

Um that number came from the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation. Since they were the ones that were involved with the underground parking structure, I would think that they knew what they were talking about.

This number was also used by KDG when they designed their FEASABILITY STUDY of the property....
http://www.thekraemeredge.com/index....woodward_block

**casscorridor** · October-27-11, 11:36 AM

There will probably be a Target store built on the site. There are plans in the works for other corporate stores for that strip of Woodward, such as Old Navy. As soon as the Target is announced, the other store announcements will follow. These stores would open just in time for the light-rail.

**Danny** · October-27-11, 12:51 PM

Um that number came from the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation. Since they were the ones that were involved with the underground parking structure, I would think that they knew what they were talking about.

This number was also used by KDG when they designed their FEASABILITY STUDY of the property....

There will probably be a Target store built on the site. There are plans in the works for other corporate stores for that strip of Woodward, such as Old Navy. As soon as the Target is announced, the other store announcements will follow. These stores would open just in time for the light-rail.

I don't think so. The Kramer Group has the plans, but no green light to make their Old Hudson Block the next Downtown Detroit Woodward Ave. a Shopping District. A lack of ecomonic progress and new jon creation just about 12 years ago after the Archer Era cause the project to be put in the closet until new businesses and retial shops rose. Right now the real estate market has slow down and banks and mortage companies are loaning money to those who has a decent salary based job and excellent credit rating. So building a new shopping area at the Hudson Block will have to wait another 10 to 15 years.

There will be no Target Store at the Hudson Block. Target, just like K-Mart, Meijers, Evil Wal-Mart wants to build their store in are wide open spaces with more asphalt parking lots and more luring traffic congestion. These greedy corporations do this to make more profits. Right now Downtown Detroit has the parking lots but people will have to pay rather than going to park for free. That's something that Target corps don't want. So nice try fellas! The Old Hudson's Block will remain a wide open vacant lot with a concrete floor, future steel pillars and giant underground parking garage until someone with a big investment risk and exoctic ideal to lure people into live, shop and work in Downtown Detroit. If Woodward shopping corridor blossoms with pernament exotic retail. Then the Hudson's Block will get a some gigantic skyscraper that would reach beyond the clouds. higher than the Renaissance Center.

**detroitbob** · October-27-11, 01:03 PM

Target is developing a new concept, "City Target" at the old Carson Pirie Scott Store on State St. in Chicago [[1 So. State) no parking and wide open spaces there. This design is for urban dwellers who either live in or commute into the area. Would work well in downtown or midtown.

agrahlma · October-27-11, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by detroitbob

Target is developing a new concept, "City Target" at the old Carson Pirie Scott Store on State St. in Chicago [[1 So. State) no parking and wide open spaces there. This design is for urban dwellers who either live in or commute into the area. Would work well in downtown or midtown.

I could see this happening at the old Hudson's site, or possibly elsewhere along Woodward.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=...dicate&section

**EL Jimbo** · October-27-11, 02:51 PM

Like I said before, with Gilbert having the building rights to this property and his association with the Somerset Collection CityLoft project that it wouldn't shock me if there was a partnership between Gilbert and the Forbes Company to turn the CityLoft concept into a permanent high end shopping presence on the Hudson Site. Perhaps even having a store like a Saks 5th Ave as the anchor.

I don't think stores like Target or Old Navy are going to work downtown at this point because they aren't destination places. They are so abundant in the suburbs that people aren't going to deal with the hassle of driving and parking downtown to frequent them. At least at this point in Detroit's recovery. However, high-end places are destinations. They attract shoppers who want to frequent those stores because of the fact they are so limited in number.

That's why I feel that if there is going to be a large scale retail portion to whatever Gilbert is developing, it will likely be something more upscale.

**dtowncitylover** · October-27-11, 03:16 PM

If Gilbert was planning on doing such a project, he should allure stores that aren't readily available or don't have a large presence in Detroit market

agrahlma · October-27-11, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

If Gilbert was planning on doing such a project, he should allure stores that aren't readily available or don't have a large presence in Detroit market

Would Dillard's be a good fit? I don't think they have a store Michigan.

**dtowncitylover** · October-27-11, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by agrahlma

Would Dillard's be a good fit? I don't think they have a store Michigan.

lol I was going to name a few stores, but didn't. But yes, Dillard's [[but all of their locations are at malls) and Bloomingdale's would be good anchors for a luxury project.

**iheartthed** · October-27-11, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

lol I was going to name a few stores, but didn't. But yes, Dillard's [[but all of their locations are at malls) and Bloomingdale's would be good anchors for a luxury project.

Bloomingdale's would be a good idea since they don't already have that brand* in Michigan. Maybe they could open a small format location in downtown Detroit like the one that opened in SoHo NYC.

*Yes, I know Bloomingdale's and Macy's are under the same parent company.

**Flintoid** · October-27-11, 08:25 PM

Gilbert is even advertising the possibility of developing the Hudson's site on the website for his Bedrock property management company. This would be amazing for downtown.

http://bedrockmgt.com/media.html

**Danny** · October-28-11, 10:48 AM

Detroitbob sez..... "Target is developing a new concept, "City Target" at the old Carson Pirie Scott Store on State St. in Chicago [[1 So. State) no parking and wide open spaces there. This design is for urban dwellers who either live in or commute into the area. Would work well in downtown or midtown."

Not going to happen in Downtown Detroit. Not in 25 to 45 years. Downtown Detroit need some people walking, eating and shopping around first before some developer want to put a upscale fancy clothier or dept store. City Loft would and any prototype upscale retail bazaar experiment would be a great ideal and taking small steps to lure shoppers and develop exotic retail in Downtown Detroit. Putting a Target Store in Downtown Detroit without any people walking around and free parking would be an investment disaster! Small mom and pop shops first, corporate retail later. When Downtown Detroit was being developed after Judge Augustus Woodward, " Pre-Washingtonian" design in early to mid 1800s, mom and pop stores comes first. When Downtown Detroit grew through the age of the automobile, Corporate based retails from J.L. Hudson to S.S. Kresge pop up like mushrooms. So in Downtown Detroit today I see mom and pop retail and few exotic stores and restaurants being developed. and some of them are doing well without a supercenter.

**tarynd85** · November-09-11, 04:21 PM

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/29716074/detail.html

**canuck** · November-09-11, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Detroitbob sez..... "Target is developing a new concept, "City Target" at the old Carson Pirie Scott Store on State St. in Chicago [[1 So. State) no parking and wide open spaces there. This design is for urban dwellers who either live in or commute into the area. Would work well in downtown or midtown."

Not going to happen in Downtown Detroit. Not in 25 to 45 years. Downtown Detroit need some people walking, eating and shopping around first before some developer want to put a upscale fancy clothier or dept store. City Loft would and any prototype upscale retail bazaar experiment would be a great ideal and taking small steps to lure shoppers and develop exotic retail in Downtown Detroit. Putting a Target Store in Downtown Detroit without any people walking around and free parking would be an investment disaster! Small mom and pop shops first, corporate retail later. When Downtown Detroit was being developed after Judge Augustus Woodward, " Pre-Washingtonian" design in early to mid 1800s, mom and pop stores comes first. When Downtown Detroit grew through the age of the automobile, Corporate based retails from J.L. Hudson to S.S. Kresge pop up like mushrooms. So in Downtown Detroit today I see mom and pop retail and few exotic stores and restaurants being developed. and some of them are doing well without a supercenter.

Well you are right about the small to medium sized businesses making the bulk of interesting retail in the downtown. Every effort at implementing small business in empty retail spaces should be made in my opinion. The big fellas will come if enough activity is seen to happen. Bars and restaurants are happening in downtown Detroit, there is no reason for smaller stores not to make a buck.

**stasu1213** · November-09-11, 09:51 PM

Let's hope council including "fiscally responsible Pugh" goes along with this. Downtown already had developed a nightlife. Now it is time to develope a daylife.

**mikeg19** · November-10-11, 02:47 PM

I saw the "riveting" story on Channel 4 last night about the Hudson's site. They pretty much wasted 3 minutes of my life trying to convince me there was a tangible plan for the site, but were so vague about it that it felt like they were just trying to fill time. Either way, I'm happy something is potentially happening with the site.

**stasu1213** · November-13-11, 08:05 PM

Would the building or whatever be built on top of the beam protruding out of the ground or would there have to be a groundbreaking? It would appear that it would not take that long to erect anything on that spot being the the support beams are already there.