GOP threatens to cut WSU, MSU budgets even more

[drjeff]

A university is NOT a business, particularly a public university.

If you cut support for research, you will instantly lose all your best faculty. Your faculty ARE the university. Therefore, you would instantly destroy the quality of the university.

[guito13]

A university is NOT a business, particularly a public university.

If you cut support for research, you will instantly lose all your best faculty. Your faculty ARE the university. Therefore, you would instantly destroy the quality of the university.

I wonder then, If a faculty member is more interested in research wouldnt the teaching part probably just be an annoyance to them anyways. As such, wouldnt they lack focus in that area?

I am a current student at WSU for what its worth.

[drjeff]

I wonder then, If a faculty member is more interested in research wouldnt the teaching part probably just be an annoyance to them anyways. As such, wouldnt they lack focus in that area?

I am a current student at WSU for what its worth.

And I am a current faculty member at WSU. Most faculty that I know enjoy teaching and think of it as very important. There are exceptions. One of the problems at WSU is the bloated number of administrators who earn huge salaries and don't really contribute anything to the educational or research components of the university. This is not unique to WSU.

[guito13]

So you have a vested, personal interest in this issue. I have to assume that your statements/opinions are influenced by this being your livelyhood.

That being said, I would assume if the faculty truly believed teaching was very important that they would stay, research or not.

I am with you on bloated administration. I am all for cutting the fat there as well.

[drjeff]

So you have a vested, personal interest in this issue. I have to assume that your statements/opinions are influenced by this being your livelyhood.

That being said, I would assume if the faculty truly believed teaching was very important that they would stay, research or not.

I am with you on bloated administration. I am all for cutting the fat there as well.

Frankly, whether the GOP cuts another 12 million from the WSU budget does not impact me personally at all. But it will impact the quality of education. And the fact that tuition does not cover the cost of education is not opinion- it is fact.

If I only wanted to teach, I would not be at WSU. Most of the public schools in Michigan are not research universities. Only Michigan, MSU and WSU are in that category. Because of this, they tend to get faculty who are at the forefront of their fields. If you are not a top notch researcher, you will not be successful at WSU. That is what makes researcher universities different and gives the students a different experience. If you want faculty who spend nearly all of their time teaching, you can get a good education at EMU or CMU. But it is a much different experience.

[Mikeg]

And I am a current faculty member at WSU. Most faculty that I know enjoy teaching and think of it as very important. There are exceptions. One of the problems at WSU is the bloated number of administrators who earn huge salaries and don't really contribute anything to the educational or research components of the university. This is not unique to WSU.

WSU doesn't make it easy for the public to find the facts about the number of both their academic and non-academic employees.

However I did find this large pdf file containing the WSU 2010 Proposed Budget details. After slogging through it, I can tell you that there are a total of 4,361 budgeted employees, 44.4% [[1,936) of which are non-academic personnel [[full time equivalents). The non-academic employees receive 38.2% of the $285 million total compensation costs [[$56,266 avg annual compensation).

1,447 [[or 75%) of those 1,936 non-academic employees work in the WSU administrative offices, departments and divisions while 498 of them work in the various WSU schools and colleges.

If WSU could have eliminated 255 of those 1,447 positions, the amount of compensation savings would have equaled the 5.3% [[$14.395 million) tuition revenue increase that was built in the 2010 budget. I'll leave it to the better informed as to whether such a headcount reduction would have negatively affected the University's teaching and research mission.

[DetroitPole]

Cut primary education, cut welfare, cut secondary education, break public sector unions and force concessions, and then refuse to tax millionaires. MILLIONAIRES.

Times aren't tough for everyone. They're tough for the bottom 95% thanks to the disgusting corporate cock-sucking little shits that call themselves Republicans.

[dtowncitylover]

I would say cut athletic programs at universities, but my head would be cut off before I would even finish the sentence...just do what a lot of nations do and have city/regional teams that men and women join to get to the pro teams. I mean, why barely pass at college when you could just join U-18 or U-21 teams to get to the pro level. If you really want to play sports, why have a useless Comm degree?

[Mikeg]

Cut primary education, cut welfare, cut secondary education, break public sector unions and force concessions, and then refuse to tax millionaires. MILLIONAIRES.

Times aren't tough for everyone. They're tough for the bottom 95% thanks to the disgusting corporate cock-sucking little shits that call themselves Republicans.

What a vile post!

I think you are capable of expressing your thoughts in a civil manner, but if not, take it over to the Non-Detroit forum where that kind of juvenile name-calling is more typical.

[Mikeg]

I would say cut athletic programs at universities, but my head would be cut off before I would even finish the sentence...just do what a lot of nations do and have city/regional teams that men and women join to get to the pro teams. I mean, why barely pass at college when you could just join U-18 or U-21 teams to get to the pro level. If you really want to play sports, why have a useless Comm degree?

The 2010 budget for the WSU Athletics Dept. had 51.5 full-time equivalent employees, 35.2% of which are non-academic. Total compensation for the 51.5 was $2.812 million, 38% of which went to the non-academic employees, whose annual salaries averaged $59,388 [[$7,350 more than the avg. salary for the academic employees in the athletic department!).

[noise]

WSU doesn't make it easy for the public to find the facts about the number of both their academic and non-academic employees.

However I did find this large pdf file containing the WSU 2010 Proposed Budget details. After slogging through it, I can tell you that there are a total of 4,361 budgeted employees, 44.4% [[1,936) of which are non-academic personnel [[full time equivalents). The non-academic employees receive 38.2% of the $285 million total compensation costs [[$56,266 avg annual compensation).

1,447 [[or 75%) of those 1,936 non-academic employees work in the WSU administrative offices, departments and divisions while 498 of them work in the various WSU schools and colleges.

If WSU could have eliminated 255 of those 1,447 positions, the amount of compensation savings would have equaled the 5.3% [[$14.395 million) tuition revenue increase that was built in the 2010 budget. I'll leave it to the better informed as to whether such a headcount reduction would have negatively affected the University's teaching and research mission.

Salaries of WSU administration, prior to the layoffs, were posted by the AAUP-AFT, for what it's worth.

I'm academic staff at WSU. I can say, with certainty, the previous budget cuts have already negatively affected some important academic functions of the university.

My favorite part of this discussion, coming from Bob Genetski, was claiming WSU & MSU were "technically" in compliance but violated the "spirit" of the law. Why aren't we demanding salary cuts to the politicians, such as Genetski, for apparently writing & passing such a poorly constructed bill?

[noise]

The 2010 budget for the WSU Athletics Dept. had 51.5 full-time equivalent employees, 35.2% of which are non-academic. Total compensation for the 51.5 was $2.812 million, 38% of which went to the non-academic employees, whose annual salaries averaged $59,388 [[$7,350 more than the avg. salary for the academic employees in the athletic department!).

I believe WSU, in particular, did recently cut women's hockey. It was the state's only D1 women's hockey program. It was also the most expensive athletic program at WSU.

[Don K]

The folks who run the Republican party won't be happy until we return to the days of Dickens, with third-world living standards, roads, and schools [[but the world's best-ever military). And when that happens, the folks who have been voting for Republicans will look around and ask how it happened, shrug their shoulders, say, "I guess we couldn't afford that stuff after all", and go back to work bussing tables or collecting garbage for the Masters of the Universe, and voting for more Republicans because, after all, the Republicans will keep blacks in their place and hate fags and hippies.

[Mikeg]

The folks who run the Republican party won't be happy until we return to the days of Dickens, with third-world living standards, roads, and schools [[but the world's best-ever military). And when that happens, the folks who have been voting for Republicans will look around and ask how it happened, shrug their shoulders, say, "I guess we couldn't afford that stuff after all", and go back to work bussing tables or collecting garbage for the Masters of the Universe, and voting for more Republicans because, after all, the Republicans will keep blacks in their place and hate fags and hippies.

What does that cliche-ridden, partisan rant have to do with the fact that for every 5 academic employees at WSU, there are 4 non-academic employees on the payroll?

If WSU's mission is truly teaching and research, how much longer can they expect to keep passing that kind of level of non-academic costs onto the students and state taxpayers?

You should be directing your rage at a bloated bureaucracy that is masquerading as an educational institution. The longer the educational bubble is allowed to grow unfettered, the more painful the crash is going to be.

According to this article, WSU's ratio of 0.8 non-academic employees for each academic employee turns out to be exactly the same as the US average for public universities. If we keep it up, eventually the US institutions will catch Great Britain and Hong Kong, where the ratios are 1.1 and 1.5, respectively!

[noise]

What does that cliche-ridden, partisan rant have to do with the fact that for every 5 academic employees at WSU, there are 4 non-academic employees on the payroll?

If WSU's mission is truly teaching and research, how much longer can they expect to keep passing that kind of level of non-academic costs onto the students and state taxpayers?

You should be directing your rage at a bloated bureaucracy that is masquerading as an educational institution. The longer the educational bubble is allowed to grow unfettered, the more painful the crash is going to be.

According to this article, WSU's ratio of 0.8 non-academic employees for each academic employee turns out to be exactly the same as the US average for public universities. If we keep it up, eventually the US institutions will catch Great Britain and Hong Kong, where the ratios are 1.1 and 1.5, respectively!

What type of jobs do you think the non-academic employees have? Most of them are crucial to services at the University.

Furthermore, without these non-academic services provided by the University and DEMANDED by the students, how do you think WSU's enrollment will be affected?

[guito13]

What type of jobs do you think the non-academic employees have? Most of them are crucial to services at the University.

Furthermore, without these non-academic services provided by the University and DEMANDED by the students, how do you think WSU's enrollment will be affected?

The only "Service" a college should provide is an education in a safe, comfortable learning environment. Any other services should not be expected/demanded/needed etc. When I go to my classes, I pay to park, I walk to the building, sit my butt down, listen/learn, then leave. The only services I use come from the people who maintain the building, teach the class, and maintain the computer network.

By the way, the posts about the republicans doing all those nasty vile things and hating the "blacks and fags" is proof of the narrowsightness of some people in this world. It makes me wonder who the truely closed minded people are.

[Goose]

the schooled are fooled and ruled......

[DetroitPole]

The only "Service" a college should provide is an education in a safe, comfortable learning environment. Any other services should not be expected/demanded/needed etc. When I go to my classes, I pay to park, I walk to the building, sit my butt down, listen/learn, then leave. The only services I use come from the people who maintain the building, teach the class, and maintain the computer network.

By the way, the posts about the republicans doing all those nasty vile things and hating the "blacks and fags" is proof of the narrowsightness of some people in this world. It makes me wonder who the truely closed minded people are.

Again: you are not the only person who attends the university. Other people do different things there for different reasons. The university does not exist only to serve you going to gen ed classes and cruising back home.

Your professor's knowledge is not something they are born with. When they're not teaching a few hours a week, they're doing their own research at the university, outside the classroom along with thousands of others.

Fortunately for the rest of the world universities were not simply designed to be a second high school [[i.e. show up, go to class, and leave), as you seem to be under the impression that they are. They are centers of learning, innovation, and research. This is not superfluous; this is their raison d'etre. If you think otherwise, maybe you should investigate a community college, or a place like Walsh or Baker. You are free to take your tuition elsewhere if you disagree with the mission of a university.

You want vile? Who is closed-minded now?http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_n...utlaw-bullying

[Novine]

"When I go to my classes, I pay to park, I walk to the building, sit my butt down, listen/learn, then leave. The only services I use come from the people who maintain the building, teach the class, and maintain the computer network."

Since you're a student, let me help you out here:

When I go to my classes [[in a building that's maintained by the university), I pay to park [[in a university-maintained parking structure or lot), I walk to the building [[on a campus maintained by university staff), sit my butt down [[in a classroom maintained by university staff), listen/learn [[to university-paid faculty), then leave. The only services I use come from the people who maintain the building, teach the class, and maintain the computer network [[none of which is possible without a lot of people performing functions that I never see ).

For your educational benefit, the university is like a major corporation. It employees a lot of people with the sole mission of supporting the University's operations. Many of these people you'll never meet and you won't find them in the classroom. But they are just as important to the operation of the university as the people in the classroom. Not all of these people have to be on the University payroll. But you have to pay someone to do that work. How do you think Wayne State functions otherwise? The only people needed to run the place are the profs, the guy cleaning the bathroom and a few IT geeks?

[Novine]

"1 graduate level class is about 2K per student. The class I am in has 25 people in it. That is 50K in revenue for 1 class [[3 months). Lets assume the professor has 2 classes a semseter thats 100K in revenue for one semester per professor. To me that seems like enough money to get by. I would really like to see where all this money goes."

Please get a job in the real-world where you can get see the financials attached to the operations of a major size company. Then you'll realize how foolish this sounds.

[rb336]

"1 graduate level class is about 2K per student. The class I am in has 25 people in it. That is 50K in revenue for 1 class [[3 months). Lets assume the professor has 2 classes a semseter thats 100K in revenue for one semester per professor. To me that seems like enough money to get by. I would really like to see where all this money goes."

Please get a job in the real-world where you can get see the financials attached to the operations of a major size company. Then you'll realize how foolish this sounds.

There is an awful lot that your 50k goes to other than the prof's salary [[many profs get more income from grants than from wages). You have the payment of TAs, upkeep on the campus, utilities, other university services like counseling and campus security, property taxes if the institution is not exempt, etc.

[guito13]

Again: you are not the only person who attends the university. Other people do different things there for different reasons. The university does not exist only to serve you going to gen ed classes and cruising back home.

Your professor's knowledge is not something they are born with. When they're not teaching a few hours a week, they're doing their own research at the university, outside the classroom along with thousands of others.

Fortunately for the rest of the world universities were not simply designed to be a second high school [[i.e. show up, go to class, and leave), as you seem to be under the impression that they are. They are centers of learning, innovation, and research. This is not superfluous; this is their raison d'etre. If you think otherwise, maybe you should investigate a community college, or a place like Walsh or Baker. You are free to take your tuition elsewhere if you disagree with the mission of a university.

You want vile? Who is closed-minded now?http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_n...utlaw-bullying

All I am saying is that instead of bitching and moaning they should make a strong case, including showing the numbers, as to why they NEED this money to survive and maintain.

FWIW, I am not taking "General Ed." classes.

If you read the article you posted, the logic is that they do not want to cater to one niche of the class makeup. They want the verbiage to be constructed in such a way that it covers everyone.

[guito13]

"1 graduate level class is about 2K per student. The class I am in has 25 people in it. That is 50K in revenue for 1 class [[3 months). Lets assume the professor has 2 classes a semseter thats 100K in revenue for one semester per professor. To me that seems like enough money to get by. I would really like to see where all this money goes."

Please get a job in the real-world where you can get see the financials attached to the operations of a major size company. Then you'll realize how foolish this sounds.

I have a job in the "Real World", in the city, for a very sucessful mid-sized company. I know every company/industry operates in a different economic environment which is why I posted before for the university to show their numbers [[with NO fuzzy accounting) and make a case in that manner.

[DetroitPole]

All I am saying is that instead of bitching and moaning they should make a strong case, including showing the numbers, as to why they NEED this money to survive and maintain.

FWIW, I am not taking "General Ed." classes.

If you read the article you posted, the logic is that they do not want to cater to one niche of the class makeup. They want the verbiage to be constructed in such a way that it covers everyone.

That is not all you're saying. Scroll up. You said that all a university should provide is a classroom, some guy talking in the front, a place for you to park, and somebody to clean the shitter and another to fix the computer, since that's all you do there. Don't back-pedal.

[guito13]

That is not all you're saying. Scroll up. You said that all a university should provide is a classroom, some guy talking in the front, a place for you to park, and somebody to clean the shitter and another to fix the computer, since that's all you do there. Don't back-pedal.

Aye, and thats all a university should provide if they are struggling [[Obviously the underlaying staff to maintain these functions is necessary). Get rid of the "Perks" unless they can soundly justify that they are NEEDED in order for the university to educate its students. As an example, every semester my bill has a fee for the gym [[which I never use or asked to use), is this fee truly going to the gym? If so maybe they can close that and use the fee for something critical to the university. Also, someone mentioned cutting sports, why not do this when times are tough if they are a drain on the university?