Arrests in Pontiac up 600% since policing turned over to Oakland County

[Gistok]

Gistok, is that your response? To try to take my nuanced remarks and reduce them to a caricature? All I did was say that there are reasons Pontiac residents would object to contracting with the county. And I did my best to present a list of possible objections. If you have a bone to pick, why don't you concentrate on debunking the actual objections instead of resorting to caricatures and false either-or choices, OK?

Sorry DN... I was in a hurry...

But aren't the tradeoffs worth it? I can understand when the state comes into Detroit, takes over the school system, and then produces few tangible results [[I'm talking earlier this decade)....

So if there are fewer criminals and lawbreakers on the street... doesn't the ends justify the means?

Gotta run again...

[Detroitnerd]

Sorry DN... I was in a hurry...

But aren't the tradeoffs worth it? I can understand when the state comes into Detroit, takes over the school system, and then produces few tangible results [[I'm talking earlier this decade)....

So if there are fewer criminals and lawbreakers on the street... doesn't the ends justify the means?

Gotta run again...

Thanks, Gistok. You know, I'd be happy to talk about or dream about a real regional police force, just as I'd like to consider regional solutions to everything. But I just wanted to point out that "dramatic" numbers don't always mean excellent service and democracy for the people. And, despite all the praise for so-called "broken windows" policing in New York, let us recall that it coincided with a time when the rich began to move back into New York in droves. Wealth in a community is what improves crime statistics. How can you tell? Because, in New York, crime didn't disappear so much as it moved ... elsewhere, to the next poor neighborhood. Not exactly a good regional solution.

As for the ends justifying the means used to achieve them, yes, I have to say the means are more important. Democracy is important. I think in particular of that Grosse Pointe thread, where I'm certain many of the people in GP were all for giving the executive more power to decide the affairs of "troubled" cities by overriding their democratic decisions. When they found out it was to affect them, they thought perhaps they'd been too hasty. It's always easy to say that democracy can wait for other people as long as we get results. "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." But, as Sinclair Lewis pointed out in "It Can't Happen Here": "If I ever hear that 'can't make an omelet' phrase again, I'll start doing a little murder myself! It's used to justify every atrocity under every despotism, Fascist or Nazi or Communist or American labor war. Omelet! Eggs! By God, sir, men's souls and blood are not eggshells for tyrants to break!"

OK, the passionate polemical politics of the 1930s don't translate well to today's jaded ear. But, really: Ultimately, ends justifying the means is the mindset of tyranny. Of totalitarianism. And we should never want that, no matter how messy our lives are.

Now, if you wanted to have a regional police force that enforced the law all over, everybody would have a say in the sort of policing they got. We could go a long way toward getting police to do what they should be doing, protecting the public.

Finally, I object to Mike Bouchard having any more power than he already has. Just look at that asshole. With his phony smile, his political grandstanding, an executive perhaps less interested in fighting crime than in generating press releases and using his office as a political springboard [[flop). A regional police force? I'd go for that. But the idea of Bouchard moving in and being top cop in my neighborhood would make me want to puke with rage.

[Gistok]

Thanks, Gistok. You know, I'd be happy to talk about or dream about a real regional police force, just as I'd like to consider regional solutions to everything. But I just wanted to point out that "dramatic" numbers don't always mean excellent service and democracy for the people. And, despite all the praise for so-called "broken windows" policing in New York, let us recall that it coincided with a time when the rich began to move back into New York in droves. Wealth in a community is what improves crime statistics. How can you tell? Because, in New York, crime didn't disappear so much as it moved ... elsewhere, to the next poor neighborhood. Not exactly a good regional solution.

As for the ends justifying the means used to achieve them, yes, I have to say the means are more important. Democracy is important. I think in particular of that Grosse Pointe thread, where I'm certain many of the people in GP were all for giving the executive more power to decide the affairs of "troubled" cities by overriding their democratic decisions. When they found out it was to affect them, they thought perhaps they'd been too hasty. It's always easy to say that democracy can wait for other people as long as we get results. "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." But, as Sinclair Lewis pointed out in "It Can't Happen Here": "If I ever hear that 'can't make an omelet' phrase again, I'll start doing a little murder myself! It's used to justify every atrocity under every despotism, Fascist or Nazi or Communist or American labor war. Omelet! Eggs! By God, sir, men's souls and blood are not eggshells for tyrants to break!"

OK, the passionate polemical politics of the 1930s don't translate well to today's jaded ear. But, really: Ultimately, ends justifying the means is the mindset of tyranny. Of totalitarianism. And we should never want that, no matter how messy our lives are.

Now, if you wanted to have a regional police force that enforced the law all over, everybody would have a say in the sort of policing they got. We could go a long way toward getting police to do what they should be doing, protecting the public.

Finally, I object to Mike Bouchard having any more power than he already has. Just look at that asshole. With his phony smile, his political grandstanding, an executive perhaps less interested in fighting crime than in generating press releases and using his office as a political springboard [[flop). A regional police force? I'd go for that. But the idea of Bouchard moving in and being top cop in my neighborhood would make me want to puke with rage.

DN.... I absolutely agree on Bouchard... 5000%. In a sense, you would think that Macomb County [[where I live) would have all the asshats as far as government goes... but for all its' downfalls... at least Macomb County has gotten rid of its' more glaring dou... er I mean dufusses [[Di'Nello, Jay, et al)... and Mark Hackel [[both as sherrif and as County Executive)... seems to be leagues ahead of the Patterson/Bouchard circus show...

I guess your perspective on the Pontiac issue... is how Bouchard has handled it.... and we don't know the specifics... as you stated.

[Mikeg]

......at least Macomb County has gotten rid of its' more glaring dou... er I mean dufusses [[Di'Nello, Jay, et al)... and Mark Hackel [[both as sherrif and as County Executive)... seems to be leagues ahead of the Patterson/Bouchard circus show...

Hackel, leagues ahead? You can't be serious! Well, maybe here: