Grosse Pointe Shores to join Macomb County?

[Novine]

"#5 A possibility to finally be able to break away from the Harper woods school system completely."

I don't know where people got the idea that this has any effect on the school districts. GPS can break away and join Macomb County and will have absolutely no effect on the school district lines. The same is true if the GPs all merged. There's no relation between the school district boundaries and the city boundaries even if they change counties.

[Scottathew]

"#5 A possibility to finally be able to break away from the Harper woods school system completely."

I don't know where people got the idea that this has any effect on the school districts. GPS can break away and join Macomb County and will have absolutely no effect on the school district lines. The same is true if the GPs all merged. There's no relation between the school district boundaries and the city boundaries even if they change counties.

^This.^

School districts are separate entities that can cross city and county lines whenever they want to.

Grosse Pointe schools could even remain in the Wayne RESA because part of the district would still cover Harper Woods which would remain in Wayne county.

[Danny]

Terrible ideal for the folks of Grosse Pointe Shores! This is not just an issue to cheaper taxes and suburban regionalization. It's a issue of Detroit's image and reputation. It's just like having Harper Woods change its name to Grosse Pointe Heights. And we seen East Detroit change its name to Eastpointe. It would be better to have five pointes annexed into one city than to have one city leave Wayne County and join Macomb County.

[bartock]

You need to reread my post because you obviously didn't comprehend it.

First, I don't care what state law says about this subject. The bottom line is that Grosse Pointe Shores thinks that it will save on taxes and get better political representation if it merges into Macomb County.

The problem with that logic is that Macomb County [[and all the other counties) are the source of the problem. County governments are huge, wasteful government bureaucracies. Government is the problem, not the solution. Southeast Michigan is a massive, conglomerate of municipal government waste, stupid repetition of services, needless make work, etc. etc. Grosse Pointe Shores leaving Wayne County to merge with Macomb County is like dumping one freeloader to start dating another. It makes no sense.

Personally, suburbs can do whatever the hell they want. I have no problem with them other than the fact that their entire existence is the result of massive government subsidies, but that's another discussion. While I can't blame Grosse Pointe Shores for wanting to merge with Macomb County, I can certainly label it gamesmanship, because that's exactly what it is.

I think that if Grosse Pointers want to be in Macomb County, then they should exercise their liberty to move there. So long as we have these superfluous governmental entities called "counties," then the cities located within them shouldn't be allowed to squirm from one to the other whenever it seems to benefit their bottom line.

Americans have the right to move freely wherever they want, but cities do not have any such rights. They are merely entities tied to a geographic area. If you are a person sick of living in Wayne County, then move. If you are a city sick of being under the management of Wayne County, then either fight to get rid of the ridiculous county system, which is is wasting my hard-earned money, or at least be more proactive in reforming it.

ah, I see, you were speaking hypothetically and not about the actual topic.

Cities and townships and municipalities in Michigan can merge. If you would like to NOT ignore the law for a second, then perhaps we can talk about reality.

1800 cities, townships and other municipalities in Michigan. There are 83 counties. The number of counties is fixed by constitution, the number of cities, townships and other municipalities is GROWING. The Pointes are uniquely situated, unlike any cluster of cities in Michigan, I'd suggest. There are very few cities or groups of cities that would even begin to have such a consolidation discussion.

The second law, should you choose not to ignore it, allows a city located in two different counties to join the county of it's choice. GP Shores has that option. The other Pointes are re-considering consolidation, with a move to Macomb County being a factor.

I don't know where your belief that county systems comes from, but somehow all 50 states consider county systems and/or county-equivalent systems [[Parishes, etc.) to have some value or some efficiency beyond that which can be provided by the State alone. Everything is relative, of course. I guess your crusade to change state constitutions starts in Michigan.

But, I think perhaps the opinion is one of convenience. Perhaps if a portion of St. Clair Shores was located in Wayne County you'd feel differently, and be lobbying for St. Clair Shores to join Wayne County because it is so bland and ugly and visiting the train station after a latte at Astro is so urban. Perhaps this would be especially true if Roseville decided that it would consider merging with St. Clair Shores ahead of the move to Wayne County. Methinks you would.

Yet, as you've pointed out, the geography stays the same. It isn't like by joining Macomb County, the Pointes or GPS would physically move out to 26 and Van Dyke.

Sometimes, these things really are about consolidating services, saving money, getting more services for tax dollars, etc. Them Pointers are pretty shrewd folks, I doubt a move to Macomb County is being done just to piss you and the 7,000 people living in downtown/midtown off just as the next BBQ place or coffee house is about to open at Cass and ML King, or to "defeat" a hipster nightclub in Pardaise Harmonie Valley Park, to the disappointment of several dozen DINKS who think they are progressive and cool for living near Eastern Market in their mid-20s.

...and look up the word gamesmanship. I'm pretty sure it has to do with trying to win something. I'm curious, once again, as to how consideration given to consolidation and a move to Macomb County is considered gamesmanship. Is GPS and/or the Pointes in general trying to negotiate or leverage for a larger share of taxes in Wayne County? That isn't legal, but who cares, right?

[bartock]

Why not likely?

I was born and raised in, and recently [[and thankfully) moved back to, Grosse Pointe Park.

I was speaking to GPS only. There are only, what, 3,000 people who live there, and I didn't think Art Van was going to be chiming in on the discussion. But, sounds like there may be a person or a few on this board from there, and it would be interesting to hear that perspective.

[Lowell]

I wonder if this is giving any ideas to the City of Northville, which similarly spans two counties?

While the 'ancient' village was centered in Wayne, "The city was incorporated in 1955 along the boundaries of the Village of Northville. The Village of Northville included portions of Novi Township in Oakland County and Northville Township in Wayne County."

I guess these municipalities have the best of both worlds. If one one county is winning the race to the bottom, they can switch to it. If the other outbids them, they can switch back.

[1953]

The Free Press says today that state law provides that the county which would lose a city would have to vote to allow it. That doesn't have much of a chance of passing, does it?

1953

[iheartthed]

I guess these municipalities have the best of both worlds. If one one county is winning the race to the bottom, they can switch to it. If the other outbids them, they can switch back.

Well, once the city completely joins a single county isn't that loophole off the table for future exploitation?

[iheartthed]

The Free Press says today that state law provides that the county which would lose a city would have to vote to allow it.

Well, that's the end of that.

[Novine]

"1800 cities, townships and other municipalities in Michigan. There are 83 counties. The number of counties is fixed by constitution, the number of cities, townships and other municipalities is GROWING. "

Not true. There's nothing in the state constitution fixing the number of counties. There's specific language that allows counties to be reduced in physical area and for counties to be merged. When it comes to the number of local governments, when GPS incorporated as a city, that eliminated 2 townships. While it's legally possible for new townships to be formed, practically speaking, that's not going to happen. The number of cities has grown but that's because a handful of villages like GPS have incorporated as cities. Overall, the number of local governments in Michigan has been pretty stable for at least the past 20 years.

[BrushStart]

ah, I see, you were speaking hypothetically and not about the actual topic.

Cities and townships and municipalities in Michigan can merge. If you would like to NOT ignore the law for a second, then perhaps we can talk about reality.

1800 cities, townships and other municipalities in Michigan. There are 83 counties. The number of counties is fixed by constitution, the number of cities, townships and other municipalities is GROWING. The Pointes are uniquely situated, unlike any cluster of cities in Michigan, I'd suggest. There are very few cities or groups of cities that would even begin to have such a consolidation discussion.

The second law, should you choose not to ignore it, allows a city located in two different counties to join the county of it's choice. GP Shores has that option. The other Pointes are re-considering consolidation, with a move to Macomb County being a factor.

I don't know where your belief that county systems comes from, but somehow all 50 states consider county systems and/or county-equivalent systems [[Parishes, etc.) to have some value or some efficiency beyond that which can be provided by the State alone. Everything is relative, of course. I guess your crusade to change state constitutions starts in Michigan.

But, I think perhaps the opinion is one of convenience. Perhaps if a portion of St. Clair Shores was located in Wayne County you'd feel differently, and be lobbying for St. Clair Shores to join Wayne County because it is so bland and ugly and visiting the train station after a latte at Astro is so urban. Perhaps this would be especially true if Roseville decided that it would consider merging with St. Clair Shores ahead of the move to Wayne County. Methinks you would.

Yet, as you've pointed out, the geography stays the same. It isn't like by joining Macomb County, the Pointes or GPS would physically move out to 26 and Van Dyke.

Sometimes, these things really are about consolidating services, saving money, getting more services for tax dollars, etc. Them Pointers are pretty shrewd folks, I doubt a move to Macomb County is being done just to piss you and the 7,000 people living in downtown/midtown off just as the next BBQ place or coffee house is about to open at Cass and ML King, or to "defeat" a hipster nightclub in Pardaise Harmonie Valley Park, to the disappointment of several dozen DINKS who think they are progressive and cool for living near Eastern Market in their mid-20s.

...and look up the word gamesmanship. I'm pretty sure it has to do with trying to win something. I'm curious, once again, as to how consideration given to consolidation and a move to Macomb County is considered gamesmanship. Is GPS and/or the Pointes in general trying to negotiate or leverage for a larger share of taxes in Wayne County? That isn't legal, but who cares, right?

I understand the law and this has nothing to do with where I live. I choose to live in Detroit and pay the taxes. But, I'd rather not pay taxes to Wayne County since I can't figure out what it or any county actually does other than blowing people's money on nonsense.

Your entire rant about DINKs drinking lattes and hipster nightclubs is ridiculous. I don't even fit the profile. Your statements have nothing to do with anything. It's as if you don't even care to try and veil your personal bias.

If St. Claire Shores wanted to merge with Wayne County, I would argue that it is equally stupid. The only thing that "pissses me off" is the endless gamesmanship by those who benefit from a wasteful system that phony "conservatives" purport as being the effective way of doing things. They only advocate for so-called efficiencies when it benefits them, otherwise they are as wasteful as the rest of the fools that manage this Metro.

I'm tired of the shenanigans. The state law should be changed so that cities cannot game what county they want to be located in on a whim. If you want to defend the wasteful system of repetitive local bureaucracy, then at least be a man and stand behind that agenda. If not, let the rest of us cut out the waste and reform the system.

I'd like to hear you defend the county system. What exactly does the county sheriff do that local police departments cannot? Why are we paying for two sets of jails? Please tell me how efficient the county road commission is when roads are the state's responsibility and few jobs get done on time or within budget? How about the county courts, are they efficient? Maybe adding another layer of government to deal with it would be your solution. The whole thing is a joke meant to keep people on the dole.

You say my opinion is one of convenience, but I think it is yours that is one of convenience. You mock new businesses starting up the city, but I would guess you'd praise another Caribou Coffee opening up at 21 Mile and Mound. My principles are always the same and I advocate for the suburbs as well as the city, but the hypocrisy of so many in the 'burbs has reached epic proportions. I'm not saying that the city isn't plagued with the same hypocrisy, but either people truly want to lower their costs by eliminating local government waste or they don't. Again, you can't have it both ways and expect me to find your argument credible.

[iheartthed]

I don't know where your belief that county systems comes from, but somehow all 50 states consider county systems and/or county-equivalent systems [[Parishes, etc.) to have some value or some efficiency beyond that which can be provided by the State alone. Everything is relative, of course. I guess your crusade to change state constitutions starts in Michigan.

Counties are really just a legacy effect for where they still exist in major population centers in the U.S. The structure makes more sense for smaller communities away from large population centers. There are quite a few examples of places that operate just fine without county level governments.

[Scottathew]

BrushStart,

You don't seem to understand.

1. Any city located in two counties can choose what county it belongs to
2. Grosse Pointe Shores is located in two counties
3. If all the Grosse Points merged, the combined city would be located in two counties

Although most of the city would reside in Wayne, it still would have the choice to choose to be part of Macomb. That is the law of our land and the legal rights of a city that is situated in two counties.

Also, your argument that counties don't do anything is just flat out wrong and shows ignorance. I live in Macomb County and I can tell you which roads are county roads, city roads, and state roads. The county often will maintain major roads that comprise city borders, which un-complicates road maintenance.

Also, county governments do winter maintenance on state roads. Other functions that Macomb county provides that Warren [[the city I live in) does not are: jail, health services, animal shelter, friend of the court, police services to non-cities, and veteran services.

And that list of services are just the non-duplicate ones.

If anything, I would argue that more services should be provided at a county level and less services should be provided at a local level.

You argue that counties are a waste of money, I argue the opposite. Little tiny cities like the Pointes, Center Line, Clawson, Berkley, Pleasant Ridge, and the likes are a waste of money. They duplicate services for small areas.

The Pointes combining would be the right thing. As to what county they would choose to be in, it's up to them. As a Macomb County resident I would welcome either decision to stay Wayne or join us in Macomb.

[Detroitnerd]

How about a metropolitan government, while maintaining the individual identities of neighborhoods and towns within the metropolis? Create different levels of decision making based on who is affected. Block issues are decided by the blocks themselves. Neighborhood issues by neighborhoods, and metro-wide issues decided my the whole metro.

We could levy the taxes of 5 million people, and distribute it more equitably. Resources will go to communities that need them. Development could be directed in strategic existing areas where infrastructure is already in place, rather than further and further out into farmland. Existing infrastructure could be enhanced or upgraded, and new infrastructure could be built, including an extensive mass transit system, ultramodern IT networks, upgraded lights, streetscapes and plumbing and the most extensive public park system in the United States.

Abandoned neighborhoods of Detroit could be rebuilt, through a combination of upgraded and new infrastructure, new residential, commercial building, large parks and an immigration program that would attract thousands of new residents to metropolitan Detroit and give them access to land and buildings to start businesses.

And we could finally stop the suburb-on-suburb gaming that goes on and focus on building a solid belt of desirable suburban environments within the city. Think of that! Instead of a bunch of competing suburbs, with all of their police departments pulling everybody over to game them for more money for their duplicated services, we could be able to enjoy such economies of scale that the savings could be poured into greenbelting the exurbs and reinvigorating the city.

This, eventually, is where things will be headed, I am sure. It will take decades of work, and perhaps the region will have to have to certain die-off before reality takes hold. But it will happen eventually. And that is why I am irritated by these small-minded proposals to secede, break away, switch counties, etc. As BrushStart ably points out, it's the whole system of various duplicated governments that is the real problem. If you really wanted to save on the tax bill, the answer is clear: Unite as a region, don't "run from the center."

[bartock]

I understand the law and this has nothing to do with where I live. I choose to live in Detroit and pay the taxes. But, I'd rather not pay taxes to Wayne County since I can't figure out what it or any county actually does other than blowing people's money on nonsense.

Your entire rant about DINKs drinking lattes and hipster nightclubs is ridiculous. I don't even fit the profile. Your statements have nothing to do with anything. It's as if you don't even care to try and veil your personal bias.

If St. Claire Shores wanted to merge with Wayne County, I would argue that it is equally stupid. The only thing that "pissses me off" is the endless gamesmanship by those who benefit from a wasteful system that phony "conservatives" purport as being the effective way of doing things. They only advocate for so-called efficiencies when it benefits them, otherwise they are as wasteful as the rest of the fools that manage this Metro.

I'm tired of the shenanigans. The state law should be changed so that cities cannot game what county they want to be located in on a whim. If you want to defend the wasteful system of repetitive local bureaucracy, then at least be a man and stand behind that agenda. If not, let the rest of us cut out the waste and reform the system.

I'd like to hear you defend the county system. What exactly does the county sheriff do that local police departments cannot? Why are we paying for two sets of jails? Please tell me how efficient the county road commission is when roads are the state's responsibility and few jobs get done on time or within budget? How about the county courts, are they efficient? Maybe adding another layer of government to deal with it would be your solution. The whole thing is a joke meant to keep people on the dole.

You say my opinion is one of convenience, but I think it is yours that is one of convenience. You mock new businesses starting up the city, but I would guess you'd praise another Caribou Coffee opening up at 21 Mile and Mound. My principles are always the same and I advocate for the suburbs as well as the city, but the hypocrisy of so many in the 'burbs has reached epic proportions. I'm not saying that the city isn't plagued with the same hypocrisy, but either people truly want to lower their costs by eliminating local government waste or they don't. Again, you can't have it both ways and expect me to find your argument credible.

Ha ha. I don't think I have to rehash my history of posting or your history of posting to see which one of us advocates what and when. I certainly don't mock new business anywhere in the region, but I do get a chuckle at those [[apparently not you, since you say you don't fit the profile) who go "nah nah nah nah nah" because Blue Cross is moving people from Southfield to downtown and a hot dog stand is opening up in Greektown. My position is and will always will be that new business everywhere in this area is good - YAY!

The rest of what you say is bordering on mental. Really.

You said "I'm tired of the shenanigans. The state law should be changed so that cities cannot game what county they want to be located in on a whim. If you want to defend the wasteful system of repetitive local bureaucracy, then at least be a man and stand behind that agenda. If not, let the rest of us cut out the waste and reform the system."

Do you mean cities that strattle two counties? Yeah it is a real problem...clearly an epidemic.

"Defend a system of repetitive local bureaucracy."? What? I pointed out that county systems or county-like systems exist IN ALL 50 STATES! You apparently have this all figured out, so start your thread on it. I don't claim that level of expertise, but I know Michigan isn't unique.

"...then at least be a man and stand behind that agenda. If not, let the rest of us cut out the waste and reform the system." Got a good laugh from that one. Seriously, at least be a man? Agenda? Wow where to begin. Wow. Bizarre statement.

Then you say, "I'd like to hear you defend the county system. What exactly does the county sheriff do that local police departments cannot? Why are we paying for two sets of jails? Please tell me how efficient the county road commission is when roads are the state's responsibility and few jobs get done on time or within budget? How about the county courts, are they efficient?"

I don't "defend the county system." I've explained it several times already. In your apparent wisdom, you've determined that it is far more efficient to have local police departments, local jails, local road commissions, etc. than to have county systems. I'm not sure that you understand the differences, or even what a county is, particularly as it relates to your statements about the roads. I'm not exactly going out on a limb by suggesting that nearly every local government would disagree with your position, but what do I know?

You say - "My principles are always the same and I advocate for the suburbs as well as the city, but the hypocrisy of so many in the 'burbs has reached epic proportions. I'm not saying that the city isn't plagued with the same hypocrisy, but either people truly want to lower their costs by eliminating local government waste or they don't."

This above paragraph is bipolar and moody. Epic proportions? Based on....what exactly? And, again, maybe I'm just dumb, but talk of consolidating five municipalities into one, and moving to a county that they can legally move to in order to save 3-4 mills in taxes a year [[almost all of those homes have SEVs many times most of ours) sounds like talk of people truly wanting to lower their costs by eliminating local government waste.

[Gistok]

BrushStart... go look up the Michigan Court System.... 57 Circuit Courts and 100 District Courts state wide... doesn't sound like anything city versus county there... at least not anymore... Engler got rid of the biggest waste there... Detroit "Recorders Court".

Also... I agree that there is some duplication between cities and counties... and yet you think that the county system is the cuprit.... shouldn't the culprit be individual municipalities? Isn't government at the county level a better way to go? Or has the corruption of Wayne County's past [[MacNamara Political Machine) altered your viewpoint?

[Detroitnerd]

I can only think of one city off the top of my head that has totally usurped county governments: New York City. It comprises five counties, and each county is a "borough" of the city. Or maybe Anchorage, Alaska, since the city swallowed the entire county.

Now, if we could merge all three counties into one supercity ...

[iheartthed]

I can only think of one city off the top of my head that has totally usurped county governments: New York City. It comprises five counties, and each county is a "borough" of the city. Or maybe Anchorage, Alaska, since the city swallowed the entire county.

Now, if we could merge all three counties into one supercity ...

Philadelphia, Baltimore, and St. Louis.

ETA: Oh, and Washington too. But D.C. was only a de facto county.

ETA2: Oh yeah, San Francisco as well.

[BrushStart]

Ha ha. I don't think I have to rehash my history of posting or your history of posting to see which one of us advocates what and when. I certainly don't mock new business anywhere in the region, but I do get a chuckle at those [[apparently not you, since you say you don't fit the profile) who go "nah nah nah nah nah" because Blue Cross is moving people from Southfield to downtown and a hot dog stand is opening up in Greektown. My position is and will always will be that new business everywhere in this area is good - YAY!

You just made a joke about it above. And, yes, I think businesses located in the central city is better for the entire region, but that's an entirely different discussion.

The rest of what you say is bordering on mental. Really.

Do you mean cities that strattle two counties? Yeah it is a real problem...clearly an epidemic.

I'm not mental. My thinking is crystal clear. This issue is symptomatic of an epidemic that seems to be getting worse.

"Defend a system of repetitive local bureaucracy."? What? I pointed out that county systems or county-like systems exist IN ALL 50 STATES! You apparently have this all figured out, so start your thread on it. I don't claim that level of expertise, but I know Michigan isn't unique.

Unique? Just because everyone else has a bunch of duplicated systems doesn't mean Michigan should. Snyder recognizes this, which is why he has advocated for consolidation of local governments to save money, but the same people who elected him to cut taxes are the ones who refuse to accept the changes. Now, we all have to deal with lousier services.

"...then at least be a man and stand behind that agenda. If not, let the rest of us cut out the waste and reform the system." Got a good laugh from that one. Seriously, at least be a man? Agenda? Wow where to begin. Wow. Bizarre statement.

You know your agenda; just come out and say it.

I don't "defend the county system." I've explained it several times already. In your apparent wisdom, you've determined that it is far more efficient to have local police departments, local jails, local road commissions, etc. than to have county systems. I'm not sure that you understand the differences, or even what a county is, particularly as it relates to your statements about the roads. I'm not exactly going out on a limb by suggesting that nearly every local government would disagree with your position, but what do I know?

I understand quite clearly, and I've pointed out obvious duplication of services that could easily be transfered to either municipal or state government. If it pleases you better, consolidate all of the city governments into the larger county governments, I really don't care which. There is no need to have multiple levels of government all doing the same thing. How it should specifically be reorganized is much more complex topic.

This above paragraph is bipolar and moody. Epic proportions? Based on....what exactly? And, again, maybe I'm just dumb, but talk of consolidating five municipalities into one, and moving to a county that they can legally move to in order to save 3-4 mills in taxes a year [[almost all of those homes have SEVs many times most of ours) sounds like talk of people truly wanting to lower their costs by eliminating local government waste.

Like I said, this issue is symptomatic of a much greater problem, I simply chose to exploit this one to make my point, but there are countless other examples. On a macro level, the thinking behind allowing these kinds of shenanigans to take place is abundantly obvious. Just take a look at the state of Metro Detroit.

In any event, I'm done debating you. Likely, things will go your way and we'll have more the same in Metro Detroit. Maybe I'll bring this issue back up when Northville decides to merge with Plymouth and join Oakland County.

[Gistok]

Philadelphia PA is its' own county... as is Indianapolis IN [[Marion County). Jacksonville FL [[Duvall County) is almost [[95%) its' own county.

[Detroitnerd]

Philadelphia, Baltimore, and St. Louis.

I believe St. Louis city is separate from St. Louis county, and that the division along those 19th century borders is still very much a political problem there. Same with Baltimore, I think. Any city where they talk about "the county" instead of "the suburbs" would seem to have that problem.

[iheartthed]

I believe St. Louis city is separate from St. Louis county, and that the division along those 19th century borders is still very much a political problem there. Same with Baltimore, I think. Any city where they talk about "the county" instead of "the suburbs" would seem to have that problem.

Sure, it's a political division --politicians will always find something to make an issue of -- but since those cities are autonomous from a county level structure they are actually more efficient than the arrangement with Detroit and Wayne County. Those cities also have less bureaucracy between themselves and the state capitals, because they are the next level of government.

[Detroitnerd]

Sure, it's a political division --politicians will always find something to make an issue of -- but since those cities are autonomous from a county level structure they are actually more efficient than the arrangement with Detroit and Wayne County. Those cities also have less bureaucracy between themselves and the state capitals, because they are the next level of government.

Ah, I get it. Thanks, ih.

[bartock]

You just made a joke about it above. And, yes, I think businesses located in the central city is better for the entire region, but that's an entirely different discussion.

No, I made a joke about certain people, not businesses. I agree with your central city statement, always have. Not sure why you bring it up.

I'm not mental. My thinking is crystal clear. This issue is symptomatic of an epidemic that seems to be getting worse.

Yikes.

Unique? Just because everyone else has a bunch of duplicated systems doesn't mean Michigan should. Snyder recognizes this, which is why he has advocated for consolidation of local governments to save money, but the same people who elected him to cut taxes are the ones who refuse to accept the changes. Now, we all have to deal with lousier services.

If you weren't dropping out of the discussion I'd be curious as to what you meant by this.

You know your agenda; just come out and say it.

No, I really don't know my agenda. Please enlighten me.

I understand quite clearly, and I've pointed out obvious duplication of services that could easily be transfered to either municipal or state government. If it pleases you better, consolidate all of the city governments into the larger county governments, I really don't care which. There is no need to have multiple levels of government all doing the same thing. How it should specifically be reorganized is much more complex topic.

It is a much more complex topic, and I'm not sure what it has to do really with the topic at hand. Also keep in mind that damn Constitution-thingy that gets in the way of some of this stuff.

Like I said, this issue is symptomatic of a much greater problem, I simply chose to exploit this one to make my point, but there are countless other examples. On a macro level, the thinking behind allowing these kinds of shenanigans to take place is abundantly obvious. Just take a look at the state of Metro Detroit.

Once again, not sure what is so "abundantly obvious" or what the thinking behind this is. Corruption? Don't think that this issue is related to that. You can't be talking about a racial conspiracy or anti-Detroit theory, can you? C'mon, not that old bag again, 2/3 of the population of Wayne County doesn't live in Detroit.

In any event, I'm done debating you. Likely, things will go your way and we'll have more the same in Metro Detroit. Maybe I'll bring this issue back up when Northville decides to merge with Plymouth and join Oakland County

Too bad. I really wanted to know what my agenda was.

...and I don't have a way. I find the issue interesting, but don't have a dog in the fight, except I suppose as a taxpayer and property owner in both Wayne and Macomb Counties. As for Northville/Plymouth, have they been having consolidation discussions for decades like the Pointes have? As I said before, I think the Pointes situation is unique.

[bartock]

The Free Press says today that state law provides that the county which would lose a city would have to vote to allow it. That doesn't have much of a chance of passing, does it?

1953

I'm not sure. The way I read it was that both counties had to allow it. Does that mean two votes, each county separately? Or does it mean one vote, both counties?