PJ O'ROURKE : falling out of love with the automobile

[ghettopalmetto]

Probably some of both. I know in Savannah, Ga. a family business, a seafood market in the same location for 40 years,wanted to start serving food and drinks as a seafood restaurant, and the neighbors went berserk. this was in midtown Victorian district with sidewalks.

Well, that's a whole different zoning issue, which happens anywhere, especially with alcohol. For example, when Chipotle wanted to open a store in Georgetown, DC, the Advisory Neighborhood Council permitted it to do so, with the provision they not serve alcohol, as they do at their other stores. I'm not involved in local Savannah politics, but I know they already permit open-containers of alcohol in public, so a perceived exacerbation of public drunkenness might have something to do with it. Restaurant and alcohol-serving establishments tend to come under a lot of fire regarding business licensure. That has nothing to do with the form of the streetscape, though.

The lack of pedestrian-friendly mixed-use neighborhoods in Detroit is precisely why historic preservation needs to become a priority. Under current zoning regulations, it would be illegal to build a place like Hamtramck, Mexicantown, or even downtown Detroit.

[Bearinabox]

Here in Rosedale Park, I can walk no more than a quarter mile and get just about everything I need, except for the things I'd want to go to a mall to buy, anyway. Groceries, drugstores, hardware stores, haircuts, some clothing, video, carry-outs... all that is missing is a really nice sit-down restaurant and a coffee house [[I am baffled about why those are missing). Granted, if I lived farther away from Grand River, it would be a longer walk. There are other areas of the city that are walkable, too.

Rosedale Park close to Grand River? Okay, I'll buy that. Just out of curiosity, though, what are "things I'd want to go to a mall to buy, anyway," and what is it about them that makes you want to buy them in a mall?

[DetroitDad]

None of those places are neighborhoods within the city proper. As I said in my previous post, Hamtramck is about as good as it gets around here in terms of walkability, IMO. I'd like it better if it were served by a 24-hour bus line, though.

I'm not sure where you find some of that stuff downtown unless "walking distance" is about three miles. Downtown is pretty good, though. Just not a neighborhood.

I agree completely with all of that, but there's a difference between "sitting here waiting to be reactivated" and "I'm selling my car tomorrow." I didn't let it stop me from living in such an area, or walking/taking the bus to almost everything, but I don't think I could live here without a car, and I'm willing to put up with more than most to avoid starting mine up. Empty storefronts can have all the potential in the world, but they don't make the walk to the nearest operating business any shorter, especially when it's twenty below outside.

Point taken, but wouldn't you say Downtown Detroit is now a small neighborhood integrated into the Central Business District?

Five years ago you did not see hardly anybody walking around Downtown Detroit, except maybe the winos and lot attendants, that is not the case today. Another thing that has been happening is that you are seeing mothers walking with babies, or young single men and women walking dogs, something unimaginable just one year ago.

All of these topics are discussions in themselves. I do assure you that all those things I mentioned are available in Downtown Detroit. There is a marketing problem in Downtown Detroit, you have to actually get out and explore or know someone just to find out about these places.

There are about 6,000 - 6,500 residents in Downtown Detroit. I believe that in order to get the services and urbanism you desire, Downtown Detroit would need around 10,000. We have added well over 1,000 in the past five years, and since some of those are having children down here, I am thinking it is not unrealistic to say we could attract 1,000 every five years. This all means Downtown should have that density with amenities in a couple decades

I personally am banking on the theory that the transit overhaul happening in the next five+ years will have huge affects on available amenities and attracting new people. The M-1 Line alone should effectively connect Midtown, Downtown, and New Center, making them into a cohesive neighborhood area that will share amenities and benefits until they can each support their own. I don't think that the city is just sitting and waiting. I'm convinced Detroit is moving forward, but I guess only time and next year's census will tell us for sure.

[Parkguy]

Bearinabox said-

Rosedale Park close to Grand River? Okay, I'll buy that. Just out of curiosity, though, what are "things I'd want to go to a mall to buy, anyway," and what is it about them that makes you want to buy them in a mall?

Things that would be too large to carry, or specialty items, for instance. Today we drove out to Ikea and Costco, for instance, to get some things that you probably couldn't find in any neighborhood. Plus we stopped at Starbucks.

[Fury13]

Or in other words, Dante's seventh circle of hell.

Ah, I see. You're a sociopath.

[Bearinabox]

Bearinabox said-



Things that would be too large to carry, or specialty items, for instance. Today we drove out to Ikea and Costco, for instance, to get some things that you probably couldn't find in any neighborhood. Plus we stopped at Starbucks.

When you said "mall," I was picturing Northland or Twelve Oaks. Ikea and Costco are "big-boxes."

In Bearinabox's Ideal Vision For The Universe, there would be small neighborhood furniture stores, and there would be big downtown furniture stores, but there would not be big-box chain outgrowths of Swedish furniture stores, painted bright blue and located in the middle of fucking nowhere. But that isn't your fault, or Rosedale Park's, that's just the way our country has decided to do retail. [[I'm just rambling now, I can't even tell if I'm trying to make a point or not anymore. )

[Bearinabox]

Point taken, but wouldn't you say Downtown Detroit is now a small neighborhood integrated into the Central Business District?

It could be. I'm sure you're not the only one who sees it that way. It's not the kind of neighborhood I'm talking about, and I maintain that we need a lot more of the kind of neighborhood I'm talking about, but if people who live there see it as "their neighborhood," then I guess that's what it is. Neighborhoodishness is in the eye of the inhabitant.

[DetroitDad]

When you said "mall," I was picturing Northland or Twelve Oaks. Ikea and Costco are "big-boxes."

In Bearinabox's Ideal Vision For The Universe, there would be small neighborhood furniture stores, and there would be big downtown furniture stores, but there would not be big-box chain outgrowths of Swedish furniture stores, painted bright blue and located in the middle of fucking nowhere. But that isn't your fault, or Rosedale Park's, that's just the way our country has decided to do retail. [[I'm just rambling now, I can't even tell if I'm trying to make a point or not anymore. )

I like your vision.

it could be. I'm sure you're not the only one who sees it that way. It's not the kind of neighborhood I'm talking about, and I maintain that we need a lot more of the kind of neighborhood I'm talking about, but if people who live there see it as "their neighborhood," then I guess that's what it is. Neighborhoodishness is in the eye of the inhabitant.

Brush Park and Cass Park's future is bright with the addition of the M-1 Rail Line. I guess it depends how it turns out, but I can see MLK and Woodward being a center of sorts, much like Downtown Farmington.

I would also like to see some small Brownstones built as infill or in the parking lot desserts of the CBD and Corktown. I'm not sure if this is really that realistic.