Because employment centers are so spread out, it makes it hard to live in the city...

[bailey]

Well, let's do the math:

What is minimum wage in Michigan now? $7.40?
$7.40 * 8 hours per day * 5 days per week = $296

Detroit to Wixom is roughly 30 miles. Assuming the car gets 20 MPG, you will burn about 1.5 gallons each way. Gas costs what now? $3.50/gallon?
$3.50 * 3 gallons * 5 days = $52.50

So commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up 1/6th of your gross pay in gas. But don't forget about Uncle Sam! $296 * .7 = $207.20

Thus, commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up one fourth of your miminum wage take home pay just to fill the gas tank in a mid-size car. This isn't considering car insurance, maintenance, or other costs. I realize that you are stating your own opinion, but I don't think she's unreasonable in her opinion.

Everyone's choices are their own. however, if the only avenue for employment is Wixom, and driving eats up a fourth of your take home. Why isn't moving to Wixom a choice? Why does the work need to move to you? OR possibly getting a car that doesn't do a pathetic 20mpg? I mean I have a cross over that does 27 average city/hwy and I'm not even trying. get a small car and you' can knock 50% or more off that gas total.

[iheartthed]

if the only avenue for employment is Wixom, and driving eats up a fourth of your take home. Why isn't moving to Wixom a choice? Why does the work need to move to you? OR possibly getting a car that doesn't do a pathetic 20mpg? I mean I have a cross over that does 27 average city/hwy and I'm not even trying. get a small car and you've knocked 50% or more off that gas total.

One of the commenters above said that she turned down a job in Wixom because of the commute from her home in Midtown. But on a tangent, I don't think you'll find many cars being sold today that does better than 20 MPG city under the most perfect of circumstances. The 2011 Ford Fusion advertises 23 MPG city on the sticker. A 4-5 year old midsize car probably won't be getting better than 20 MPG.

[miketoronto1]

Usually living in the central part of a decentralized region makes more sense, as you are central to more jobs. So living in downtown Detroit would put you equal distance to more jobs, than say living out in Shelby Township.

In fact the reverse commute is big for many downtown residents. I know in Toronto, many live in the downtown and choose to drive 30 or 40 minutes out to the suburbs to work, or some grab express buses from downtown out to suburban job centres.

Living in Central Detroit I do not think would increase commute times at all. If anything it opens up a larger area of potential jobs.

[ghettopalmetto]

Usually living in the central part of a decentralized region makes more sense, as you are central to more jobs. So living in downtown Detroit would put you equal distance to more jobs, than say living out in Shelby Township.

In fact the reverse commute is big for many downtown residents. I know in Toronto, many live in the downtown and choose to drive 30 or 40 minutes out to the suburbs to work, or some grab express buses from downtown out to suburban job centres.

Living in Central Detroit I do not think would increase commute times at all. If anything it opens up a larger area of potential jobs.

In a decentralized "donut" region such as Southeastern Michigan, living in the center would put you equidistant from more jobs. But that doesn't mean you would actually be closer to more jobs.

[Ravine]

In a decentralized "donut" region such as Southeastern Michigan, living in the center would put you equidistant from more jobs. But that doesn't mean you would actually be closer to more jobs.

Jesus. FUCK YOOOOOOOOOOU

[bartock]

Jesus. FUCK YOOOOOOOOOOU

Pretty much sums up my feelings.

[R8RBOB]

When I first moved to Cali, I discovered how far commuters would travel for work. I was working in the city of Campbell which is a suburb of San Jose and I worked with a guy who lived in Los Banos and he told me that he drove three hours each way to work. Three hours!!! Being from Michigan, I was like get outta here. You work eight hours, you spend six hours traveling. You have only enough time to eat, play with the kids, have a quickie with the wife and then it is off to bed to get up and leave the house by 5AM.

My problem with driving way out in Michigan is two-fold. One is public transportation is shaky in this region. Because DDOT is confined to Detroit and SMART only go so far in the burbs, you're up shits creek if you have a job in Wixon and the ride breaks down. Two, is the main reason why I don't want to work in the middle of nowhere: the weather. For the record, I fuckin' hate to drive in the snow but it is a necessary evil that must be done. That said, bad weather puts a downer on long-distance driving. Add un-salted roads and I'm on pins and needles.

[bartock]

When I first moved to Cali, I discovered how far commuters would travel for work. I was working in the city of Campbell which is a suburb of San Jose and I worked with a guy who lived in Los Banos and he told me that he drove three hours each way to work. Three hours!!! Being from Michigan, I was like get outta here. You work eight hours, you spend six hours traveling. You have only enough time to eat, play with the kids, have a quickie with the wife and then it is off to bed to get up and leave the house by 5AM.

My problem with driving way out in Michigan is two-fold. One is public transportation is shaky in this region. Because DDOT is confined to Detroit and SMART only go so far in the burbs, you're up shits creek if you have a job in Wixon and the ride breaks down. Two, is the main reason why I don't want to work in the middle of nowhere: the weather. For the record, I fuckin' hate to drive in the snow but it is a necessary evil that must be done. That said, bad weather puts a downer on long-distance driving. Add un-salted roads and I'm on pins and needles.

Since when are Wixom and Shelby Township the middle of nowhere?

[Detroitnerd]

Since when are Wixom and Shelby Township the middle of nowhere?

Interesting point. What aspects of Wixom or Shelby Township would put them in, say, the "heart of the action," then?

[bartock]

So this is basically another "the suburbs suck" topic dressed up as some other real or imagined issue.

Take that, Wixom!

[bartock]

Interesting point. What aspects of Wixom or Shelby Township would put them in, say, the "heart of the action," then?

Neither one is the "heart of the action," and neither one is the middle of nowhere.

I get that people hate it, but the reality is that Shelby is on the north side of a very busy M-59 corridor, both in population and commerce.

Wixom is similarly situated in a busy corridor of a different part of the metro.

I could see someone complaining about driving across town because the traffic sucks, but "middle of nowhere", c'mon.

[iheartthed]

Neither one is the "heart of the action," and neither one is the middle of nowhere.

I get that people hate it, but the reality is that Shelby is on the north side of a very busy M-59 corridor, both in population and commerce.

Wixom is similarly situated in a busy corridor of a different part of the metro.

I could see someone complaining about driving across town because the traffic sucks, but "middle of nowhere", c'mon.

I guess he defines "middle of nowhere" as a place you can't get to by using public transportation. Both Wixom and Shelby Twp fit that definition, according to the SMART bus map... http://www.smartbus.org/smart/Ride%2...ewSmartMap.pdf

[Detroitnerd]

Neither one is the "heart of the action," and neither one is the middle of nowhere.

I get that people hate it, but the reality is that Shelby is on the north side of a very busy M-59 corridor, both in population and commerce.

Wixom is similarly situated in a busy corridor of a different part of the metro.

I could see someone complaining about driving across town because the traffic sucks, but "middle of nowhere", c'mon.

I'm not trying to be facetious. Honestly, I do sort of think of this as being waaay beyond my orbit, and I'm genuinely curious to what makes it "somewhere" for someone else.

In your opinion, where is downtown Shelby Township? Downtown Wixom? Help me out here.

[bartock]

I guess he defines "middle of nowhere" as a place you can't get to by using public transportation. Both Wixom and Shelby Twp fit that definition, according to the SMART bus map... http://www.smartbus.org/smart/Ride%2...ewSmartMap.pdf

That is a very interesting definition, especially for Metro Detroit.

And the bus does go to Shelby Twp., according to your map.

[bailey]

I'm not trying to be facetious. Honestly, I do sort of think of this as being waaay beyond my orbit, and I'm genuinely curious to what makes it "somewhere" for someone else.

In your opinion, where is downtown Shelby Township? Downtown Wixom? Help me out here.

Why does either area need a downtown?

[Det_ard]

Well, let's do the math:

What is minimum wage in Michigan now? $7.40?
$7.40 * 8 hours per day * 5 days per week = $296

Detroit to Wixom is roughly 30 miles. Assuming the car gets 20 MPG, you will burn about 1.5 gallons each way. Gas costs what now? $3.50/gallon?
$3.50 * 3 gallons * 5 days = $52.50

So commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up 1/6th of your gross pay in gas. But don't forget about Uncle Sam! $296 * .7 = $207.20

Thus, commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up one fourth of your miminum wage take home pay just to fill the gas tank in a mid-size car. This isn't considering car insurance, maintenance, or other costs. I realize that you are stating your own opinion, but I don't think she's unreasonable in her opinion.

No.

If you're grossing $296/wk you're not paying anywhere close to 30% of that in taxes. I have no idea why you'd say that.

Figure 4.2% for SS, 1.45% for Medicare. You'll get money back from the Feds [[$124) and pay close to nothing to the State. So figure roughly a 5% total tax burden, not 30%.

[bartock]

I'm not trying to be facetious. Honestly, I do sort of think of this as being waaay beyond my orbit, and I'm genuinely curious to what makes it "somewhere" for someone else.

In your opinion, where is downtown Shelby Township? Downtown Wixom? Help me out here.

I don't know! We moved out to Shelby T a couple of months ago, and I honestly have not driven north of my house. Before looking out that way I thought it was sort of the middle of nowhere also, but understanding your sprawl criticisms, I can tell you that M-59/Hall Road is a freaking nightmare full of people and commerce and all that, just in the most auto-centric, suburban way possible. I am not all that familiar with Wixom, but understand it is sort of to 12 Oaks/Novi [[big, sprawly, mall-y area) what Shelby is to the Lakeside/Partridge Creek It is most definitely not the middle of nowhere, unless your definition is no so much desolate as it is "nowhere you'd want to be." [[Meaning you, D-Nerd. I actually kind of like it.)

[iheartthed]

No.

If you're grossing $296/wk you're not paying anywhere close to 30% of that in taxes. I have no idea why you'd say that.

Figure 4.2% for SS, 1.45% for Medicare. You'll get money back from the Feds [[$124) and pay close to nothing to the State. So figure roughly a 5% total tax burden, not 30%.

I'm not a CPA, so I'll take your word for it. Point still remains that a significant amount of your income is being eaten up in just filling the gas tank, to say nothing of other travel related expenses. Far less than what I pay to commute.

[Detroitnerd]

Why does either area need a downtown?

Well, if it's not in the middle of nowhere, I presume it's central for some people. So I'm trying to figure out where the central point is. Hence my questions.

[Detroitnerd]

I don't know! We moved out to Shelby T a couple of months ago, and I honestly have not driven north of my house. Before looking out that way I thought it was sort of the middle of nowhere also, but understanding your sprawl criticisms, I can tell you that M-59/Hall Road is a freaking nightmare full of people and commerce and all that, just in the most auto-centric, suburban way possible.

I've been on Hall Road a few times. Terrifying for me. I guess you need the fortitude of a Le Mans driver to get over in that left lane, threatened by Escalades and Hummers, so you can simply turn around and get to a pita joint. Everything all spread out and, therefore, everybody in a hurry. As bad as it was to drive, I can't imagine trying to walk anywhere out there.

I am not all that familiar with Wixom, but understand it is sort of to 12 Oaks/Novi [[big, sprawly, mall-y area) what Shelby is to the Lakeside/Partridge Creek It is most definitely not the middle of nowhere, unless your definition is no so much desolate as it is "nowhere you'd want to be." [[Meaning you, D-Nerd. I actually kind of like it.)

I think, perhaps, what we're finding out with this conversation is what we mean by a "sense of place." It is central to you because it is where you live and shop and play, I presume. For me, what puts someplace in the boonies could be many things: lack of density, low walkability, preponderance of generica, the feeling that it could be anyplace off the interstate, etc.

I'd also add that this is a longstanding theme. When Grand Boulevard was first built in the 1880s, Detroiters objected to building "that road out in the middle of nowhere." In doing so, they created a ring of factories and what author Joel Garreau considers America's first "edge city."

[bartock]

I've been on Hall Road a few times. Terrifying for me. I guess you need the fortitude of a Le Mans driver to get over in that left lane, threatened by Escalades and Hummers, so you can simply turn around and get to a pita joint. Everything all spread out and, therefore, everybody in a hurry. As bad as it was to drive, I can't imagine trying to walk anywhere out there.



I think, perhaps, what we're finding out with this conversation is what we mean by a "sense of place." It is central to you because it is where you live and shop and play, I presume. For me, what puts someplace in the boonies could be many things: lack of density, low walkability, preponderance of generica, the feeling that it could be anyplace off the interstate, etc.

I'd also add that this is a longstanding theme. When Grand Boulevard was first built in the 1880s, Detroiters objected to building "that road out in the middle of nowhere." In doing so, they created a ring of factories and what author Joel Garreau considers America's first "edge city."

Yeah sense of place is very true. It is amusing to read all about the city-centrics, inner-ring suburbs and outer suburbs/exurbs. I've lived in all three and they are all OK in their own way, all suck in their own way.

But, most of my waking time is spent downtown. I do not see anything in the drive between that look remotely like boondocks except for parts of Mt. Elliot or maybe on Van Dyke just north of 94, when I go those ways. In fact, it is pretty damn dense the whole way.

To me, the notion of not wanting to go somewhere or work somewhere because it is "that place" is ridiculous. Even a 30 mile commute from downtown to some suburb is not that bad when considering it is against the flow of traffic in each direction. The commute time is probably comparable to living in Royal Oak [[or Birmingham) and working downtown.

Sweet, my building just stopped shaking. Where was the earthquake?

[canuck]

bartock Sweet, my building just stopped shaking. Where was the earthquake?

It was in the farthest suburb, in Virginia.

In Montreal, the worst thing about suburban commutes are to the off-island suburbs. Mind you I live on the island and it can take anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes to drive home from downtown depending on traffic. Crossing the bridges is the major sore. We just got news this year that the Champlain bridge, the busiest span in Canada needed to be replaced, in spite of the major overhaul that was being done to it. Then another bridge; the Mercier bridge was also being refitted and needed to be raised to replace faulty plate which limited traffic to one direction in AM the other PM. Either way, crossing the bridge at the wrong time can cost you an extra 30 minutes at least.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah sense of place is very true. It is amusing to read all about the city-centrics, inner-ring suburbs and outer suburbs/exurbs. I've lived in all three and they are all OK in their own way, all suck in their own way.

Yeah, that's true. It's a trade-off in a lot of ways. It's a chore to make sure I have nothing visible in my car whenever I leave it, or to double-lock my door when I go out, or to dodge this or that unpleasantness. But I get to live the way I want, where everything is right at hand, and, for somebody who really hates driving, it's worth it.

But, most of my waking time is spent downtown. I do not see anything in the drive between that look remotely like boondocks except for parts of Mt. Elliot or maybe on Van Dyke just north of 94, when I go those ways. In fact, it is pretty damn dense the whole way.

Funny, I live less than a mile from there and yet the Hamtramck area is as dense as it gets. Around here, it's really "block by block" in ways perhaps similar to Philly or New York. My sister lived in Macomb Twp. for a while. I really couldn't get over the feeling of being trapped in a sub. Nowhere to go for a pack of smokes or a paper. On one hand, yeah, it breaks down to a lifestyle thing, but I understand the argument that city living requires fewer subsidies and is therefore more sustainable.

To me, the notion of not wanting to go somewhere or work somewhere because it is "that place" is ridiculous. Even a 30 mile commute from downtown to some suburb is not that bad when considering it is against the flow of traffic in each direction. The commute time is probably comparable to living in Royal Oak [[or Birmingham) and working downtown.

In fairness, I think we should lay the blame on a few things:

Thinking we could have a thriving metro by putting all our eggs in the sprawlbasket.

Thinking we could have a rubber-on-road-only transportation system and that would be enough.

Thinking that fuel prices would stay the same forever and that roads "pay for themselves."

So now, it's quite possible for somebody to look at a job on the other side of the metro and say, I just can't afford to commute there. My sister is considering taking a job in another county, and it's a good one -- more money, benefits, etc. -- but she had to do the math on fuel costs before she could honestly say it was a gain. Now, all tastes aside, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes us less competitive as a region.

[bartock]

Yeah, that's true. It's a trade-off in a lot of ways. It's a chore to make sure I have nothing visible in my car whenever I leave it, or to double-lock my door when I go out, or to dodge this or that unpleasantness. But I get to live the way I want, where everything is right at hand, and, for somebody who really hates driving, it's worth it.



Funny, I live less than a mile from there and yet the Hamtramck area is as dense as it gets. Around here, it's really "block by block" in ways perhaps similar to Philly or New York. My sister lived in Macomb Twp. for a while. I really couldn't get over the feeling of being trapped in a sub. Nowhere to go for a pack of smokes or a paper. On one hand, yeah, it breaks down to a lifestyle thing, but I understand the argument that city living requires fewer subsidies and is therefore more sustainable.



In fairness, I think we should lay the blame on a few things:

Thinking we could have a thriving metro by putting all our eggs in the sprawlbasket.

Thinking we could have a rubber-on-road-only transportation system and that would be enough.

Thinking that fuel prices would stay the same forever and that roads "pay for themselves."

So now, it's quite possible for somebody to look at a job on the other side of the metro and say, I just can't afford to commute there. My sister is considering taking a job in another county, and it's a good one -- more money, benefits, etc. -- but she had to do the math on fuel costs before she could honestly say it was a gain. Now, all tastes aside, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes us less competitive as a region.

A long time ago I lived on Faber Street in Hamtramck, where the air smells of hot dogs twice a day. My wife grew up on Deramus [[sp?).

...anyway, my point was not to get back to the sprawl, but that I have trouble understanding how someone living downtown/midtown, against the flow of traffic in the morning, could complain about or refuse to take a job in your Shelby Townships or Wixoms. To me, it just seems like more of an excuse to knock on those "uncool" or whatever places than an actual statement about cost/benefit of the commute. And of course this is unscientific, but a person living in Birmingham and working in downtown Detroit likely spends more time and gas in their stop/start, stop/start commute than someone living in midtown and driving to Wixom or Shelby. Hell, the commute from Midtown to an inner-ring place like Grosse Pointe Park is probably worse. I'm just not seeing the security of having unreliable cross-town public buses as a back up really being the deal-breaker, either.

[Detroitnerd]

A long time ago I lived on Faber Street in Hamtramck, where the air smells of hot dogs twice a day. My wife grew up on Deramus [[sp?).

Genies is no more, but it has luckily been replaced by fragrant Bangladeshi restaurants ... mmmmm.

...anyway, my point was not to get back to the sprawl, but that I have trouble understanding how someone living downtown/midtown, against the flow of traffic in the morning, could complain about or refuse to take a job in your Shelby Townships or Wixoms. To me, it just seems like more of an excuse to knock on those "uncool" or whatever places than an actual statement about cost/benefit of the commute. And of course this is unscientific, but a person living in Birmingham and working in downtown Detroit likely spends more time and gas in their stop/start, stop/start commute than someone living in midtown and driving to Wixom or Shelby. Hell, the commute from Midtown to an inner-ring place like Grosse Pointe Park is probably worse. I'm just not seeing the security of having unreliable cross-town public buses as a back up really being the deal-breaker, either.

I guess it depends. Are you talking about somebody who has several job opportunities and refuses one that's a half-hour drive away? Or somebody who needs a job and can either take this job or stay on assistance? I don't think it's a knock on a place necessarily to say you wouldn't want to live there or work there. I lived in New York and had plenty of people visit who said it was a rush but not for them in the long run.

I think we're just now easing into this idea of employees who can choose among places where they want to work. I imagine it used to be a simple matter of which sub you live in and how long your commute is [[not my lifestyle -- as overheard in GM elevators). But with younger people who appreciate density and urbanity, it makes sense they'd live in Midtown or Corktown or someplace like that. Naturally, wouldn't they want that in their work life as well? I really do value being five miles from work and being able to walk to the store.

I guess I'm saying that if you can understand why somebody would live in exurbia and not mind a 40- or 50-minute commute, why would it conversely be difficult to understand somebody who lived in a dense, urban area and wanted a similarly shorter commute within a smaller radius?

If we're ever going to come together as a region, we need to understand that somebody's taste for a certain lifestyle needn't go hand-in-hand with unreasonable disdain for another? I mean, beside the obvious economic arguments about where subsidies should go in the long run ...