Because employment centers are so spread out, it makes it hard to live in the city...

**HazenPingree** · August-19-11, 01:27 PM

Bham and Tangerine: Coincidentally, I was discussing a similar topic with my boss this morning. He was ruminating on an article that he read that claimed that denser cities [[not to be confused with more populous cities) produce the most patents, the article suggested that he reason for this was that denser more compact cities have a more widespread freeflow of thought and ideas [[my addition: perhaps they also attract the most creative and talented people?) and have grown to feature the strongest creative sectors. I found this interesting as it applies to your discussion. If such a claim is true, a more compact region would at the very least produce a more vital and productive intellectual economy if not a stronger financial economy.

**Detroitnerd** · August-19-11, 01:31 PM

Actually, that fits with Miller's Law from Repo Man:

Miller: The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.

**HazenPingree** · August-19-11, 02:45 PM

Maybe my boss was referring to Repo Man.

**canuck** · August-19-11, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by HazenPingree

Bham and Tangerine: Coincidentally, I was discussing a similar topic with my boss this morning. He was ruminating on an article that he read that claimed that denser cities [[not to be confused with more populous cities) produce the most patents, the article suggested that he reason for this was that denser more compact cities have a more widespread freeflow of thought and ideas [[my addition: perhaps they also attract the most creative and talented people?) and have grown to feature the strongest creative sectors. I found this interesting as it applies to your discussion. If such a claim is true, a more compact region would at the very least produce a more vital and productive intellectual economy if not a stronger financial economy.

I think that if you shoot for density to reinvigorate the center city and folks quit worrying about what happens next... as in; We'll cross that bridge when we get there; Detroit will surmount some of these problems by being creative, which is how it became a great city in the first place. The key word is to be found in something that happens when you hop on a bus or frequent a business estblishment and just generally walk and mill about the city; I choose to call it friction. And friction doesnt mean someone comes from behind nowhere with an AK to spew his venom on the world with bullets. It means that no matter what in your daily doings, you are bound to encounter a boss, a spouse, a teacher, a caregiver, a store clerk that will engage you in a way that takes you in and out of your comfort zone. In a big city like Detroit, you have to deal with many settings comfortable and not. The idea is that mass transit is not only a tool but a facilitator in the game of citification. It forces folks to NOT rely on their car-cocoon, and then engage in the workplace etc... The difference is quite large when you add all the variables inherent to transit in metro terms. It contributes to fashion, to the dreamscape that allows citizens to breathe in and out the experience of urban life. To ignore or dismiss the problems of Detroit's core is to fuck with the suburban dreamscape that came from it. A city the size and scope of Detroit will not survive this dismissal. Look at pictures of it in Shorpy Bham, and tell me the vibrancy of a city core did not contribute to the growing urb, I dare you.

**R8RBOB** · August-20-11, 03:20 PM

Recently, I went for a job interview and I discovered that the location was out in Shelby Township. 23Mile and Van Dyke. I didn't realize how far the location was from where I live at in the "D" and I live on the northwest side. Truth be told, I don't want to work no where I cannot reach by bus. If the car breaks down and I have recently experienced that I want a secondary method to get to work and working way out doesn't benefit me.

**MidTownMs** · August-20-11, 05:10 PM

I was called about a job yesterday...when I asked where it was located the person said Wixom...I live in Midtown. I thanked them for considering me but there was no way I would drive to Wixom everyday with the price of gas commuting is just not cost effective. Not to mention the stress associated with it. And I have no desire to move anywhere near Wixom.

bartock · August-20-11, 07:58 PM

Wow it's great that the two of you have those options. Hopefully you let Epiphany know.

**wolverine** · August-20-11, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

And Chicagoans are fleeing their city for the suburbs. The city population is rapidly dropping, and the exurban population is rapidly growing. The Chicago Public Schools are overwhelmingly poor, and has very, very few children from this "urban yuppie" cohort.

You are correlating city losses with exurban growth.

Nooooo! That is entirely wrong. Look at where Chicago's population losses have occurred. They are in the poorest of neighborhoods. Most of the lower income folks from south and far west sides are pushing into the inner ring suburbs were the cost of living is cheaper and they are closer to job centers like shopping malls and restaurants.

Chicago is a wonderful city to live if you have a good job and are well educated, but a terrible place if you don't.

**illwill** · August-20-11, 08:05 PM

Hey tangerine, I think you made a very important statement. Once most people move away from Michigan, very few end returning. I think Bham is trying to force Anonymous to admit that he enjoys living in Chicago. And anonymous, being a huge fan of Michigan and Detroit like thousands of Detroit ex-pats has made a better lfe in another city. Unfortunately, Anonymous might be having a hard time recognizing that he is very happy living in Chicago. Of course except for the things that he misses from home [[sports, food, etc...). I see this with die-hard Detroit friends and family all the time.

I also think Bham must realize that Chicago is a totally different animal than Detroit. While driving through Chicago last week, a friend of mine asked the a person at the table next us "how did you decide what neighborhood to live in? Because they're all so different, vibrant and unique." She said that it would be a very hard decision to pick a place to live because of so many amazing choices.

I say live where you want. I love Detroit for Detroit but that doesn't mean that Chicago sucks either. Chicago is a great city as well...obviously.

Ravine · August-20-11, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by MidTownMs

I was called about a job yesterday...when I asked where it was located the person said Wixom...I live in Midtown. I thanked them for considering me but there was no way I would drive to Wixom everyday with the price of gas commuting is just not cost effective. Not to mention the stress associated with it. And I have no desire to move anywhere near Wixom.

If the job is full-time and pays even so much as minimum wage, your assessment is difficult to understand.

**miketoronto1** · August-22-11, 09:50 AM

I think it is interesting to hear people complain about 30 minute commutes or one hour round trip commutes.
Many of you also want public transit. However you do know that your commutes are almost always going to take longer via transit or other modes other than the car.

Your commutes sound very short compared to my commute or others who use transit, in a transit rich city like Toronto.

For myself and others who use transit, the commute to work is usually 45-60 minutes each way.

So your commutes out to Troy or other places may not be that bad after all

I also question this idea that people don't want to live in a region without a viable urban core. I just got back from Detroit and was hanging out with lots of the 20-35 year old crowd. And to be honest none were worried about not having a viable urban core to live and work in. They all have lives out in the suburbs, and the urban core is not even on their radar.
I know that is not everyone and there are people who want to be in the city. But at the same time, there are tons that don't really care. They just want a job, a large house, and a car, and they are happy.

**ghettopalmetto** · August-22-11, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by miketoronto1

I think it is interesting to hear people complain about 30 minute commutes or one hour round trip commutes.
Many of you also want public transit. However you do know that your commutes are almost always going to take longer via transit or other modes other than the car.

Your commutes sound very short compared to my commute or others who use transit, in a transit rich city like Toronto.

Someone who commutes on a train can sleep, read, or work on the ride to/from work. You're not forced to remain alert and pay attention to hundreds or thousands of sometimes unpredictable movements and conditions of automobile traffic. Even a 60 minute commute on a train is less stressful than a 30 minute drive.

I also question this idea that people don't want to live in a region without a viable urban core. I just got back from Detroit and was hanging out with lots of the 20-35 year old crowd. And to be honest none were worried about not having a viable urban core to live and work in. They all have lives out in the suburbs, and the urban core is not even on their radar.
I know that is not everyone and there are people who want to be in the city. But at the same time, there are tons that don't really care. They just want a job, a large house, and a car, and they are happy.

No one is proposing to bulldoze the suburbs. But those people who want that suburban OPTION already have it in spades in Michigan. There is very little choice but to relocate for Detroiters who do wish to live in an urban environment and commute via transit.

**Det_ard** · August-22-11, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by MidTownMs

I was called about a job yesterday...when I asked where it was located the person said Wixom...I live in Midtown. I thanked them for considering me but there was no way I would drive to Wixom everyday with the price of gas commuting is just not cost effective. Not to mention the stress associated with it. And I have no desire to move anywhere near Wixom.

That's a good example of why Michigan workers have a bad reputation. Talked to a few last week who didn't want to mess up their unemployment with my $1000/wk job offer. Of course, they're working for cash on the side.

**Anonymous** · August-22-11, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

No one is proposing to bulldoze the suburbs. But those people who want that suburban OPTION already have it in spades in Michigan. There is very little choice but to relocate for Detroiters who do wish to live in an urban environment and commute via transit.

This is exactly it.

And it just so happens that the latter group tends to be higher income and/or better educated.

**canuck** · August-22-11, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

If the job is full-time and pays even so much as minimum wage, your assessment is difficult to understand.

Well maybe I would agree with you, but minus the minimum wage bit. If you do a 45 to 60 minute drive each way daily, you are talking 10 hours of transit in a personal vehicle. That is a lot of money, energy, pollution, aggravation for small potatoes. Chances are slim you will find someone to share expenses from point a to point b. On the other hand, if using effective transit, as ghettopalmetto says, you could read a book, maybe even study for night classes etc...

**internet_pseudopod** · August-22-11, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

That's a good example of why Michigan workers have a bad reputation. Talked to a few last week who didn't want to mess up their unemployment with my $1000/wk job offer. Of course, they're working for cash on the side.

Well apparently they didn't need work. The maximum unemployment benefit is around $350/wk if they can make enough under the table to equal an amount greater than your $1000/wk they'd be stupid to take it. It would be bad business. Since they are making so much money I would assume these people have a skill, thus you may know who is employing them. You may do well to root out the people that are paying under the table by reporting them to proper authorities.

**Detroitnerd** · August-22-11, 03:12 PM

Yes, let's blame the workers. [[Psst, banks and corporate America? You're off the hook...)

**Islandman** · August-22-11, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

That's a good example of why Michigan workers have a bad reputation. Talked to a few last week who didn't want to mess up their unemployment with my $1000/wk job offer. Of course, they're working for cash on the side.

I didn't know Michigan workers had a bad reputation. Can you expound on this please? Very curious.

**Detroitnerd** · August-22-11, 03:24 PM

Anti-union rant in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

**Jimaz** · August-22-11, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Originally Posted by Det_ard

That's a good example of why Michigan workers have a bad reputation.

I didn't know Michigan workers had a bad reputation. Can you expound on this please? Very curious.

Yeah. That surprised me too. I've always heard praise for Michigan workers' unique work ethic, well, at least from hiring managers outside of Michigan.

Sincerely.

**MidTownMs** · August-22-11, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

If the job is full-time and pays even so much as minimum wage, your assessment is difficult to understand.

My assessment was based on my own situation. I was speaking for myself. And I would not drive from Detroit to Wixom especially for a minimum wage job. Because I would have to get a second job just to pay for gas for the minimum wage job in Wixom.

**313WX** · August-22-11, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

If the job is full-time and pays even so much as minimum wage, your assessment is difficult to understand.

Would you make a 60 minute commute [[nearly 50 miles there and back) for a minimum wage job when gas is approaching $4/gallon?

If not then I don't think you have the right to judge other people's assessment, IMO

**Detroitnerd** · August-22-11, 05:51 PM

File under: How sprawl makes the region less competitive.

Ravine · August-22-11, 10:52 PM

I realize that all are speaking for themselves, but I do not see how the combination of [[minimum wage) + [[that length of commute) = not cost-effective.
Unless one is driving the old Ford Econoline conversion-van I used to have.
And I do believe that I have the right to judge other folks' assessments, just as they have the right to judge mine.
I'm not imposing a goddam fine, I'm stating my opinion.

I can see this return to the open forum as being short-lived.

**iheartthed** · August-23-11, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ravine

I realize that all are speaking for themselves, but I do not see how the combination of [[minimum wage) + [[that length of commute) = not cost-effective.
Unless one is driving the old Ford Econoline conversion-van I used to have.
And I do believe that I have the right to judge other folks' assessments, just as they have the right to judge mine.
I'm not imposing a goddam fine, I'm stating my opinion.

I can see this return to the open forum as being short-lived.

Well, let's do the math:

What is minimum wage in Michigan now? $7.40?
$7.40 * 8 hours per day * 5 days per week = $296

Detroit to Wixom is roughly 30 miles. Assuming the car gets 20 MPG, you will burn about 1.5 gallons each way. Gas costs what now? $3.50/gallon?
$3.50 * 3 gallons * 5 days = $52.50

So commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up 1/6th of your gross pay in gas. But don't forget about Uncle Sam! $296 * .7 = $207.20

Thus, commuting from Detroit to Wixom eats up one fourth of your miminum wage take home pay just to fill the gas tank in a mid-size car. This isn't considering car insurance, maintenance, or other costs. I realize that you are stating your own opinion, but I don't think she's unreasonable in her opinion.