Horrible Violence in Detroit Today

[Buy American]

No one is going to rain down on you. It is a frustrating conundrum, really, and the world's finest minds haven't got a clue.

But ultimately, I don't think it'll work to pay people not to have kids. People are going to have sex, and if they're healthy and fertile, conception will result.

If they really want to get the funds, the abortion rate would go up. No one, not even those who are pro-choice, think that's the best solution.

The only solutions to change people's behavior externally are carrots [[more incentives, social programs) or sticks [[requiring welfare recipients to use BC, more aggressive removal of children from dysfunctional homes). We don't have the cash for the former, and we aren't cold enough to do the latter.

Besides, if working class or poor black single mothers were not allowed to procreate, a lot of very productive people I know wouldn't be here... including myself. My mom and dad were not married when I was born. They married when I was 2. It's a good thing that the state didn't choose to prevent me from being conceived, in my opinion... I kinda like being alive, you know.

English, I like what you have been saying and I respect your words. However, I must take exception with the highlighted sentence above. I agree, people are going to have sex, but they could be smart and have safe sex.

Many of the young men in Detroit go from girl to girl and are simply sperm doners. No telling how many children they have by many different girls [[notice, I don't say women because I think it's always young girls who have these babies...babies having babies).

Why isn't birth control [[a simple trip to the drug store) a part of this scenario? Is the sex just performed in a drunken or drug stupor and nine months later another baby pops out? Do these girls want a baby because the government gives them money for every child produced? Something needs to be changed within our welfare structure and these children shouldn't get paid for having babies. I for one, don't want my tax dollar used to pay children NOT to have babies.

[Pam]

Why isn't birth control [[a simple trip to the drug store) a part of this scenario? ..... I for one, don't want my tax dollar used to pay children NOT to have babies.

I would support free birth control available at schools. [[Along with sex ed. that goes beyond "abstinence only". ) I know this will never happen though.

[Ravine]

I really wonder how many generations of women will fall into the same trap. It's not as complicated as some of the quasi-socio-economic hypotheses, presented here, suggest it to be.
This "I want a little baby" horseshit is little more than the grown-up [[please note my avoidance of the word, "mature") version of "I want a puppy."
Those foolish girls who actually do believe that the guy is going to stick around and do the right thing must be from the group that is sneaking around backyards and huffing freon swiped from A/C units.
The boys-- and that's all they are, even when they're 30-- involved know what the fuck they're doing. Acting like the woman involved, or the court, is a vindictive enemy out to get them is a bullshit rationalization, and anyone who buys into that song & dance is a fuckin' idiot. And, to the extent that some of them get roped into impregnating a girl who is just looking for a way to nail them down, well, OK, now we have one more fuckin' idiot in the circle.
Life really does work in reverse. If new life popped out in the form of a teen-ager, and the parent got to enjoy the infant later, this shit would not happen, ever, in any socio-economic group.

[Gannon]

Life really does work in reverse. If new life popped out in the form of a teen-ager, and the parent got to enjoy the infant later, this shit would not happen, ever, in any socio-economic group.

Indeed, LOL, and humans might've never made it past the 'second' generation outside the 'garden'!

Cheers

[English]

English, I like what you have been saying and I respect your words. However, I must take exception with the highlighted sentence above. I agree, people are going to have sex, but they could be smart and have safe sex.

Many of the young men in Detroit go from girl to girl and are simply sperm doners. No telling how many children they have by many different girls [[notice, I don't say women because I think it's always young girls who have these babies...babies having babies).

Why isn't birth control [[a simple trip to the drug store) a part of this scenario? Is the sex just performed in a drunken or drug stupor and nine months later another baby pops out? Do these girls want a baby because the government gives them money for every child produced? Something needs to be changed within our welfare structure and these children shouldn't get paid for having babies. I for one, don't want my tax dollar used to pay children NOT to have babies.

Buy American, it's called choice. How on earth are you going to get poor and uneducated folks to choose to have "the shot" [[Depo-Provera) or either tubal ligation or a vasectomy, with all the crazy conspiracy theories in the 'hood?

How on earth are you going to get folks to take the Pill, or wrap it up?

Many of these girls WANT to have babies. I was told when I was 25 and childless by a black Detroiter [[a guy) muttered that I was "d*mned near middle aged" not to have children. Almost a decade later, many of the women my age have teenagers themselves, and I am sure there are some GRANDMOTHERS.

And some of the men WANT to impregnate women, even though they say they don't. It's a sign of virility and vitality -- "my daughter" -- "my son" -- even if they aren't doing a thing to take care of them, even a sperm donor wants to take credit. How many NBA stars have absentee dads who creep back into their lives once their kid is successful?

Do you know how d*mned difficult it is to be my age, living and working in the city, and NOT to be a mother? My God, the peer pressure to procreate is insane, especially as you head into your late 20s/early 30s. Let alone the fact that I'm not like most ladies... my biological clock's broken... but most women have an evolutionary need to have at least one child, marriage and financial stability notwithstanding. If you are waiting for a stable relationship, let alone marriage, you're seen as weird. [[And then, you become headline fodder for Nightline, CNN, and Newsweek -- "Why are so many educated black women single and childless?" The consensus is that we're selfish.)

No, none of it is logical, but neither is sex, love, and procreation. People who are far more privileged than poor Detroiters do all kinds of harebrained things in the name of love -- "you can't help who you fall in love with." Who is thinking about the consequences, across demographic lines? The sex drive is powerful. So is the instinct to procreate. This is evolutionary biology 101, not English making up inconvenient facts.

In a society where to be poor, black, and a woman means to many that you're less than nothing, having a baby gives a woman some legitimacy and a sense of self-worth. It also is a way to gamble on more than a fleeting connection to a man. They want to feel a sense of love and belonging.

Some of the comments here display little knowledge about the mindset of the people in the Detroit ghettohoods. They will procreate even if you stop paying for it, folks -- hasn't anyone considered the birthrate in the poorest countries in the world? Some nations have 8+ children per women! In fact, if we continue to pare down benefits and evict folks, I'd speculate that births to the poorest and least stable among us will actually go UP.

This is going to get WORSE before it gets better if we continue beating a dead horse skeleton. Because what does asking "why" or beating a dead horse skeleton DO in the end to solve the problem?

[Gannon]

Warren Evans was like a moth - every time a television light came on there he was, every chance he could get.

One more of those, and I'll have to clean this darn keyboard again. That is espresso abuse you're causing, softail...that was fucking funny.

Thanks

[Pam]

[[And then, you become headline fodder for Nightline, CNN, and Newsweek -- "Why are so many educated black women single and childless?" The consensus is that we're selfish.)

Anyone who says that is an idiot.

[Ravine]

English, there are some quarters-- or slices, if you will play along-- where you will be excoriated for over-personalizing some of your analyses, but you hit several nails on their rusty little heads.
Still, while I acknowledge the peer pressure to which you referred, that, like some of the stuff I mentioned about the guys, is too convenient an "out" for people who are refusing to take the bull of adult-hood by the horns and start making self-directed decisions that will serve them well, long-term.
As long as a person is allowing themselves to be talked [[even by themselves) into doing things and succumbing to peer pressure, that person is not, themselves, anywhere near maturity and is damned sure unfit, and entirely unready, for parenthood.
I realize that you know that. I just thought it could use a bit of illumination.

[Ravine]

Anyone who says that is an idiot.

HAR!!

Idiots, indeed; therefore, "the concensus."

[bailey]

Buy American, it's called choice. How on earth are you going to get poor and uneducated folks to choose to have "the shot" [[Depo-Provera) or either tubal ligation or a vasectomy, with all the crazy conspiracy theories in the 'hood?

How on earth are you going to get folks to take the Pill, or wrap it up?
....
This is going to get WORSE before it gets better if we continue beating a dead horse skeleton. Because what does asking "why" or beating a dead horse skeleton DO in the end to solve the problem?

You're right it is called "choice". You then went on to describe the fucked up decision tree that is currently being used by many of Detroit's poorest residents to make those choices. [[not really limited to detroit, but ...this conversation is)

Asking "why" they make those decisions isn't beating a dead horse, it's THE question to ask. Detroit is not located in the third world where women are denied education, have zero access to birth control and beholden to cultural mores that ascribe second class citizenship to women and force them into a life of being a baby factory. You bring up the crazy conspiracy theories in the hood... WHY are those believed? WHY is the only way to feel validated through having a kid? WHY can't we stop the cycle?

Look, the issue is not access to the resource to prevent pregnancy/deal with pregnancy/adopt out kids, get on any bus in Detroit and head in any direction and you're going to be able to get to a planned parenthood clinic. You noted your feelings on why that doesn't happen, but why the beliefs you described are so entrenched IS the inquiry. we as a society...even the poorest... have access to more information about the world around us than at any other time in human existence, yet the problem only seems to get worse. "Why?" is exactly the question because we clearly haven't answered it. If we don't answer the "why" of it, we're never going to get to the "how" to fix it. We'll just continue to throw some money at it and tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

[Ravine]

"You bring up the crazy conspiracy theories in the hood... WHY are those believed?"

Generational memories didn't get washed away by the fire-hoses so prominently used during the civil-rights movements of the '60's.
Genetic experiments, and other atrocities, committed with the sponsorship of our government left a scar. Scars fade, but never completely go away.

[English]

You're right it is called "choice". You then went on to describe the fucked up decision tree that is currently being used by many of Detroit's poorest residents to make those choices. [[not really limited to detroit, but ...this conversation is)

Hey, we don't disagree. I do agree that it's jacked up. It's also destructive to self and the community.

Asking "why" they make those decisions isn't beating a dead horse, it's THE question to ask. Detroit is not located in the third world where women are denied education, have zero access to birth control and beholden to cultural mores that ascribe second class citizenship to women and force them into a life of being a baby factory. You bring up the crazy conspiracy theories in the hood... WHY are those believed? WHY is the only way to feel validated through having a kid? WHY can't we stop the cycle?

We've been asking "Why?" my entire lifetime. The situation has gone from bad, to worse, to dire. Today, it's fair to say that it's FUBAR. And the ways that we have chosen to address it have not worked. Cutting welfare has not worked, 1990s welfare reform has not worked, naming and shaming has not worked.

It's sheer idiocy is to do the same thing over and over again -- and expect the same results.

Look, the issue is not access to the resource to prevent pregnancy/deal with pregnancy/adopt out kids, get on any bus in Detroit and head in any direction and you're going to be able to get to a planned parenthood clinic. You noted your feelings on why that doesn't happen, but why the beliefs you described are so entrenched IS the inquiry. we as a society...even the poorest... have access to more information about the world around us than at any other time in human existence, yet the problem only seems to get worse.

I would disagree that poor women are accessing this kind of information. What's the literacy rate in the city of Detroit again? They're not reading DYes, or the news, or consuming the same kinds of information that you and I are. They, like all of us, are living and existing in their own lifeworlds. We don't understand their rationalizations, but I'd argue that they wouldn't understand ours.

"Why?" is exactly the question because we clearly haven't answered it. If we don't answer the "why" of it, we're never going to get to the "how" to fix it. We'll just continue to throw some money at it and tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The problem is that we have two opposite and competing answers to the "Why?" of generational poverty, crime, and dysfunction. The liberals and the conservatives have been fighting my entire lifetime. We chose to tear up the previous social order in the 1960s, but we didn't really and truly commit to a new world and new cultural and social norms *as Americans*. The poorest and most marginalized among us are catching hell most acutely, but all of us aren't exactly having fun, either.

We need to decide WHICH of the two explanations we are going to commit to, and fully commit. If we go the conservative route, cut all social programs and let the chips fall where they may. If we go the liberal route, then fund the heck out of everything, European style, and let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately, we have many examples all over the globe showing us that neither explanation suffices.

[English]

English, there are some quarters-- or slices, if you will play along-- where you will be excoriated for over-personalizing some of your analyses, but you hit several nails on their rusty little heads.

LOL! I hear you. I hate that it IS so personal. When I walk out the front door in SE Michigan, if I am not careful with dress, appearance, and speech? There but for the grace of God go I. [[It was even worse when I was younger. I've talked about trying to purchase a new vehicle around metro Detroit as a young teacher. So glad I don't look like a teenager anymore...)

It's also personal because if I diassociate myself from black Detroit, I'm necessarily implicated in any topic where black Detroiters are indexed. "Why don't you DO something? Yes, it DOES affect you." "Black people need to stop killing each other and get a good education." "Black women are loose. They have more STDs." I mean, I could do what a few of us do, and completely ignore the fact that I'm a black Detroiter and just be this lone individual -- English -- but unfortunately, the social subjectivity of race is an inescapable trap.

Also, generation has something to do with this. Because the folks that are doing the dirt and running wild won't listen, those of us who are young[[er) and responsible constantly have to hear from older African Americans that our generation is dropping the ball. So offline, I'm constantly trying to explain to the 60 and up crowd at church, at the sorority, and on campus -- "Why aren't these parents raising their children?" "Why are children so disrespectful?" "Why do you young women think it's OK to have all these babies before you're married?" "Why can't he/she hold down a job?" I have a high tolerance for this kind of questioning, but most people in my generation resent the hell out of it... especially if they're trying to be an individual living life productively.

Hell, I don't know why people make crazy, self-destructive choices. I never cease being bewildered. Sue me.

I wish it weren't personal. I don't wish I weren't black, but it'd be nice if being black was like being a blonde vs. a redhead vs. a brunette. Sad to say, it's not.

Still, while I acknowledge the peer pressure to which you referred, that, like some of the stuff I mentioned about the guys, is too convenient an "out" for people who are refusing to take the bull of adult-hood by the horns and start making self-directed decisions that will serve them well, long-term.
As long as a person is allowing themselves to be talked [[even by themselves) into doing things and succumbing to peer pressure, that person is not, themselves, anywhere near maturity and is damned sure unfit, and entirely unready, for parenthood.
I realize that you know that. I just thought it could use a bit of illumination.

Agreed. But we have somehow created a social system where perpetual adolescence is rewarded. I'd argue that among the desperately poor, this escalates into violence and other forms of pathos. However, across classes, Americans don't really want to grow up. [[That's an entire essay in itself.)

[Detroitej72]

"You bring up the crazy conspiracy theories in the hood... WHY are those believed?"

Generational memories didn't get washed away by the fire-hoses so prominently used during the civil-rights movements of the '60's.
Genetic experiments, and other atrocities, committed with the sponsorship of our government left a scar. Scars fade, but never completely go away.

Damn Ravine, you beat me to that post!

Good to see you participating on these threads again.

[Gannon]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011081...text|FRONTPAGE

[mercyme]

Normal or not, it's still a tragedy, a sin and a shame. It's sad but here in the United States, we've grown very used to people killing each other. What will it take for us to step back and say to ourselves that this is neither normal nor feasible?

I was a Detroiter many years ago when it was a marvelous place to grow up. I have sadly watched it's demise and pray that one day, not for myself, but for the others that are and will be missing out on the great city Detroit was, and I believe, can still be.

One of the threads of thought that I have observed here, with grief, is the often spoken attitude of violence is everywhere so get over it. Learn to live with it. NO, NO, NO.......

Nothing good will happen in Detroit until that violence is stopped. Yes, all cities have violence but folks don't learn to accept it and go about their way. They fight back, they demand their officials address the issues, they address the issues by protecting their neighborhood and by addressing the violence in the media. I really can't offer any other solutions but to say that as long as folks accept these horrific actions they will continue. Stand up and scream.......

[English]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011081...text|FRONTPAGE

Thanks, Gannon. From the article:

"In reality, unless we can change the mind-set of people in dealing with violence, there's very little that can be done," former Police Chief Isaiah McKinnon, now an education professor at the University of Detroit Mercy, said Tuesday. "Until we have a re-education of young people, until we have young people with moral values and who want to live and want to do the right thing about themselves, want to do the right thing about society, these types of things are going to continue."


Scott Decker, director and foundation professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Arizona State University, said the city's crime rate will linger until bigger social problems are fixed.


"Detroit's social problems are legend and widely known," Decker said. "We know how to put a lot of cops on the street at once, but we're not good at improving neighborhoods or reducing poverty."
McKinnon agreed.


"It's easier to find a gun than it is to find a job in Detroit -- when you talk to young people they will tell you that," McKinnon said. "They've given up that hope about life."

Glad to see I'm not just crazy English, making excuses for criminals. As I've pointed out, we've got one of two paths to follow as a city and a society -- we aren't getting better results because we are half a**ing.


The food program in DPS is a great start. I love how folks on that thread purport to know all about the economic situation in the Detroit ghetto. There were a lot of "welfare queens and deadbeats" stereotypes. Perhaps this was the case in 1980, but in 2011, even working class folks are struggling to eat. Let's move beyond limited thinking and into reality.

[Ravine]

That just goes to show that folks believe not what their senses & mental faculties tell them; they believe that which they already believe, even if it is something which they do not know, but merely was taught to them.

Lumpy grammar; I presume that my meaning will push its way through.

[stromberg2]

^^^^
So glad I don't look like a teenager anymore...)
Yes you do, English!!

Stromberg2

[Hypestyles]

..i hope the anti-gun-control absolutists are happy.. more people are going to have to deal with the aftermath of unfettered gun-acquisition..

[English]

^^^^
So glad I don't look like a teenager anymore...)
Yes you do, English!!

Stromberg2

I pay Stromberg2 to say such things...

[Barbara Nadel]

So sorry to hear about this violence. Such a complicated issue. Just like here it involves so many things like lack of hope and opportunity, the recession, the unwinable 'war on drugs', stereotyping, demonisation, the uselessness [[in the UK) of our politicians as well as a level of opportunism too. We are fortunate in the UK in that we have some level of gun control, although that said you can get a gun here if you want one and you know the right people. People need hope and they need jobs for heaven's sake! If my poor son with a PhD can't get a job [[and he can't even get an interview) then what hope is there for kids who can barely read and write! All of us down here on the ground cannot rest on our laurels, but the money for all this HAS to come from the top. Maybe if the rich paid some taxes occasionally that money could be used to fund some sort of FDR style New Deal.

[Django]

Barbara, about 2 weeks ago 2 kids were killed in a dopehouse, one of them 16 yrs old. Shot and robbed. I took you to within about 30 meters of that spot where they were killed. Remember Crazy Anne on McDougall in front of the church at Frederick? It was right there. I wonder if these killings were some sort of play for the drug busts that have been happening.

It looked like a straight up drug robbery but killing two people [[both shot in the face) is a little harsh for under $1000 worth of dope and cash.

I prefer your violence to ours, your folks are pissed for a reason of some sort as far as I can see and may make a diff, but really two totally different animals as far as reasons.

[Autoracks]

Fully endorse a vibrant downtown north thru midtown and up to Boston St.
East thru the market up the riverfront by Chene park and all the areas within
W.Grand Blvd. At this point there are plenty of areas within these boundaries
that could be easily redeveloped into neighborhoods. Areas where there isnt
a whole hell of a lot standing. Connect the stable areas that surround downtown
and fill in the gaps. Building is a catalyst for jobs. Not sure if the demand is there
However if people are willing to and trying to pay 1500 a month to rent in the
downtown area.18K a year. Do that for 5 years and you have paid for
half a house.
Unfortunately, large areas of the city have persistent problems. Look around some
areas and its hard to imagine them ever coming back up. Mostly inhabited by
unemployable people. Kids running around that should probably be in school.

[Barbara Nadel]

Barbara, about 2 weeks ago 2 kids were killed in a dopehouse, one of them 16 yrs old. Shot and robbed. I took you to within about 30 meters of that spot where they were killed. Remember Crazy Anne on McDougall in front of the church at Frederick? It was right there. I wonder if these killings were some sort of play for the drug busts that have been happening.

It looked like a straight up drug robbery but killing two people [[both shot in the face) is a little harsh for under $1000 worth of dope and cash.

I prefer your violence to ours, your folks are pissed for a reason of some sort as far as I can see and may make a diff, but really two totally different animals as far as reasons.

Oh my God, that's awful. Take your point totally. But this also AGAIN just underlines how futile the 'war on drugs' is. If busts result in deaths like this what is the point?