DPS EFM Roberts Imposess Sweeping 10% Wage Reduction ETC.

[oldredfordette]

DTeacher, I forgot to add - what you do is more important than almost any work done in the world today. Under the worst of circumstances, for pennies per child, against ignorant public opinion. It's a sign of how deeply fucked up things are that you are being vilified instead of cheered. You and English and all the other teachers who post here deserve our thanks.

[DetroitTeacher]

I must have missed applying at the cushy little kingdom because I know of no such animal. I get played, by DPS, more than a country fiddle.

My favorite line in lilpup's first post is "cushy little kingdom the teachers unions have set up". Hilarious.

In the new class war, we hate workers but love love love CEO's. You haters understand that revenues are at an all time high in the top corporations, don't you?

[DetroitTeacher]

Thank you. It's my kids who say thanks that really gets me choked up. It's for them that I take all the crap that I take I do appreciate those of you out there who think that I do something wonderful but you really have no idea...it's me who is appreciative that I get to be around my kids all day and get to see their "a-ha" moments [[something not too many people get to witness)! I am the one who is rewarded each day by being able to make a difference in a kid's life and I wouldn't trade that for anything. If that is the reward for being shit on by the general public [[and those here who hate teachers), I'll take it.

DTeacher, I forgot to add - what you do is more important than almost any work done in the world today. Under the worst of circumstances, for pennies per child, against ignorant public opinion. It's a sign of how deeply fucked up things are that you are being vilified instead of cheered. You and English and all the other teachers who post here deserve our thanks.

[lilpup]

In the new class war, we hate workers but love love love CEO's. You haters understand that revenues are at an all time high in the top corporations, don't you?

Why aren't union yappers out organizing and sponsoring marches on corporate HQs and Washington D.C.?

complicit as long as they get theirs, selling out the new hires

[Bong-Man]

I feel more sympathy for the support staff of DPS than I do for the teachers. Someone making under $30,000 a year gets to start out by giving 7% of that to the State of Michigan for MPSERS. Throw in at least another couple hundred for your current health care coverage, and that doesn't leave much to live on. I'm sure AFSCME will still want their $35 bucks a month so their reps can go on vacation....and yes, I am unfortunately a member.

Isn't it slightly amazing that the same party that thinks Social Security is a poor investment for the average American, has no problem with me donating 7% of my gross for State retirement benefits I have no guarantee of ever seeing ? Strange days indeed !

[oldredfordette]

Why aren't union yappers out organizing and sponsoring marches on corporate HQs and Washington D.C.?

complicit as long as they get theirs, selling out the new hires

We are out there, all the time, to the sneers of your type. Next time you see a picket line or a demonstration, stop snarking and join in. I'm off to DC this weekend [[on my own dime, btw, nobody is sponsoring me) to find out new and better ways to fight back. Join in or get the fuck out of the way.

[English]

We are out there, all the time, to the sneers of your type. Next time you see a picket line or a demonstration, stop snarking and join in. I'm off to DC this weekend [[on my own dime, btw, nobody is sponsoring me) to find out new and better ways to fight back. Join in or get the fuck out of the way.

Oldredfordette, some folks just won't be convinced. It's far easier to complain that it is to *do*.

[English]

Also, DT works 110% harder than I do. College and university teaching is far less stressful than K-12. My colleagues would hang me out to dry for saying that, because they scream about the pressure to publish and write grants, but the immediacy and the sheer energy required to engage in moment by moment classroom interaction is draining.

It is very much like having two jobs at once. Right now, as a professor, I am simply an instructor. I don't have to deal with the affective domain very much, if at all. What I do provide for my students is something that I didn't receive as a teacher candidate...

...a heads-up.

The non-academic aspects of teaching were the biggest surprise of the profession. It was far more difficult to teach than I thought it would be not because I didn't have the knowledge base, but because no one EVER talked about the physical, psychological, and emotional drain. Teaching in the city -- especially the first 2 years teaching elementary students -- reminded me so much of those superfamily shows. I was Michelle Duggar without the teenaged older daughters to "help." I was prepared to teach academic subjects, but when you teach in Detroit, very often, you are those kids' everything -- mom, big sister, counselor, financial advisor, social worker, family therapist, playtime director, etc. They have to pee, they have to do #2, they have to throw up, and often, they can't wait for the restroom. Fifth graders are starting to deal with hygiene and hormones.

I was 21, 22, and 23. That entire first year I was in WTF mode. I could not believe that parents didn't take care of all this stuff so I could teach fractions. I was teaching in one of the best K-8 schools in the city and some of those babies would come to school every which way but the right way. Someone said that teachers are whining, because only 10-20% of kids in any given classroom have needs beyond the academic that need attending to. I wish I could have duct taped that so-and-so to my chair.

High school isn't quite as intense. But there is always something.

I wasn't prepared for a kid to tell me that their mom was being abused and they couldn't tell anyone else.

I wasn't prepared for a kid to tell me they had been assaulted.

I wasn't prepared for a kid to tell me they were pregnant... and another... and yet another.

I wasn't prepared for a kid to come out to me, in a whisper... "I'm gay. I can't tell my mom." "Ms. English, this is my boyfriend. I can't tell my family, but I wanted you to meet him. You see, I've told him all about you... how nice you are..."

And then, if you don't have the misfortune to have a kid that is killed or incarcerated, then a friend or family member is. Every school year.

I wasn't prepared for ANY of it. I looked about 13 when I started teaching, and maybe 16 when I started teaching high school. The first year, I'll never forget my newly widowed mom and my bartender sister laughing out the door on Friday nights while I collapsed on the sofa, Sci-Fi network [[before it was Syfy - ick!) watching me. The third year, when I first went to Cass Tech, has to be the lowest point of my life. Nothing, but nothing coul have prepared me for the psychological and emotional dimension of teaching...

...or how much you care about the students. I had around 95 students my first year, and by the time I left CT had between 150-170 a semester. It was crazy-making because there was always some kid or some situation you couldn't let go of at night or over the weekend. Experienced veterans told me that I had to learn how to let kids go, but I never, ever managed to do that to the detriment of my own health.

Even my last time as a high school teacher -- in 2006 in the 'burbs -- I was still trying to save kids on my porch. These kids were on tethers and no one gave a damn and their parents didn't have any time. They found where I lived and everyone asked me if I was afraid. Maybe they'd rob me. Heck no. Most teenagers do not scare me. I would give them some water & make them work in my garden, and they talked to me about their hopes and dreams. Look, that is the way that communities used to work before this modern, sick age.

Then I was told I needed to become a full-time PhD student... and my health failed, so I had no choice. I had the heart to teach teens, but not the stomach - my gastro issues were getting out of control and I wasn't even 30 yet. Since I had to leave my job, I advertised for a housemate. And my kids made her nervous... no one thought I was doing anything inappropriate [[they never came in my house), but folks said they were dangerous kids and what if my housemate got hurt. Kids like that can sense fear... etc. So that was that.

A year and a half later, I heard that one of those kids nearly beat someone to death, and was in prison. I cried and cried and cried... it has been five years since I left K-12 and I still feel guilty because I abandoned my kids. First in the city, and then in the 'burbs. Of course, both times, I was laid off and there were other circumstances, but I feel that SO few people will even take an hour out of their time and actually SEE the kids.

Kids and teens are frank and candid. They see their folks -- AND crappy teachers -- better than any adult every could. The good kids have great parents, and they say that even in the midst of their teenaged angst. Some of the troubled kids have parents who are trying their best, but most troubled kids have trifling parents who haven't yet mastered being an adult themselves.

I used to get so angry about these parents. I had a stellar mom and a decent dad, so I didn't get it at all. Why does a CHILD -- that came out of you -- feel that they can't tell you they're pregnant? That they're gay? That they're feeling suicidal? Why do they write, in their journals, that they can't talk to you? That you're busy? That you're caught up in your own life? Why do they ask me, a stranger, to help them figure out life? I was hired to teach them Shakespeare and conjunctions and how to strengthen their evidence in an argumentative essay.

Then you get those who come to conferences, antagonistically. They tell us what their child would NEVER do. From my experience, sure, parents know their children when they are small. But when they get older, sure, you know them better than anyone. But heck NO, you don't really know what some of them are up to before, after, and during school. You do not know what they're doing out of your sight, down the block, around the corner, or over that girl or guy's home.

Especially at the high school level, what I saw in Detroit and in my suburban district was parents treating their kids as if they're mini-adults. If I had a dollar for every "I don't know what to do with her/him," I could pay off my student loans.

I was 29 when I left the classroom. But each year from 21 to 29, here I am telling some parent:

"We'll come up with a solution together. We'll find a way."

Excuse me, but WHAT PART OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH RAISING TEST SCORES?

And I never saw the business side of $72K in the K-12 classroom. I still remember my pay each year -- I was paid $32K and $35K my first two years, and was in the $40sK my entire time at Cass Tech [[except for the last year). DPS got a bargain, and were idiots for axing my generation of educators hired in the late 1990s.

I finally got up to the 50s when I went to the 'burbs. By that time I had an MA plus 30 credits, was a doctoral candidate, had been a finalist for a national teaching award, had been a supervisor for preservice teachers, was planning to go for National Board certification, and my teaching was being researched for a best practices study. What, pray tell, is this $72K of which people speak?

Parker Palmer was right... by the time a young teacher is 29, he or she might as well be middle aged.

And yes, teachers are infuriated. The bad ones don't care, but the good ones are offended. They are offended because the average adult has NO idea what actually goes on inside a school. They think that because they went to school or know a teacher, they know. And because they're so narcissistic, they believe that THEIR experiences at school are EVERYONE'S experiences. Half the job of us lazy, ineffective education professors try to do is depersonalizing schooling for teacher candidates. They all assume like many of the reformers [[most of whom hail from the nation's best schools) that all kids and teenagers are like them. They all learn as they did, they all have the same issues and crises as they did, and they all tick the same way.

I am passionate about this because once upon a time, I was an arrogant, too-smart kid who thought I had all the answers for education. I thought my colleagues didn't work hard enough, and that a good teacher produced results, with no excuses.

Over time, I learned the power of this Wade Davis quote:

"The world in which you were born is just one model of reality. Other cultures are not failed attempts at being you; they are unique manifestations of the human spirit."
This is long, but it needed to be said...

[English]

And I pointed out my age repeatedly because that was my story... and because I had no relevant training or life experience to give the kids what they needed... in all the extrascholastic categories where parents, my administrators, and the community were expecting me to perform miracles. When I began, I was the exact age of the teachers the reformers purport to put in the schools to replace the lazy veterans... and they don't even have the 2 years of ed school courses that I had. Teach for America? Please!

I did all these things not because I want a cookie -- besides, no one here is offering one, since this is DYes -- but to share how much goes on in the professional practice of teachers before you even get to the academics. If anyone wants more info on this, go get Dave Eggers' book Teachers Have It Easy. It compares a teacher's work schedule to that of another white collar professional -- hour by hour. Essential if you want to even begin a debate.

[bartock]

Who's denying reality? People will work for peanuts, across the board, these days. Only the highly skilled health professions are exempt, and they're next.

Probably something for another thread, but I'd be curious to see if this comes true. There are plenty of teachers, engineers, lawyers, accountants, and others with professional degrees that make fairly modest money and have a fairly modest living. I have yet to come across one physician who does. If one is going to go $100K in debt obtaining an advanced degree and coming out making $50K a year [[and teachers don't even make that), why not go for $250K in debt, deal with an additional four years beyond school for residency [[getting paid about $50K a year, but with loan deferment), and start making a minimum of $200K at the age of 30.

[bartock]

we are out there, all the time, to the sneers of your type. Next time you see a picket line or a demonstration, stop snarking and join in. I'm off to dc this weekend [[on my own dime, btw, nobody is sponsoring me) to find out new and better ways to fight back. Join in or get the fuck out of the way.

was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Let's go!!

[JBMcB]

Would K-12 educators in Detroit be willing to give up some percentage of their pay if it meant that it went to mandatory preschool for every student? Preschool is where kids learn the "soft-skills" that so many seem to be missing in later grades.

So, if 20% of their time is spent teaching kids basic life skills they lack, as English seems to be claiming, would they be willing to give up 20% of their paycheck if their job was that much easier?

[Novine]

"So, if 20% of their time is spent teaching kids basic life skills they lack, as English seems to be claiming, would they be willing to give up 20% of their paycheck if their job was that much easier?"

Would you? If this is so important, why are we asking teachers alone to sacrifice for it?

[JBMcB]

Would you? If this is so important, why are we asking teachers alone to sacrifice for it?

It is critically important. There's no way to pay for it.

It would be a good idea to cut job-training programs and divert the money to preschool, as most studies show they don't lead to any more employment than doing nothing at all. However, conventional wisdom is that those programs are the greatest things since sliced bead, so good luck with that.

[DetroitTeacher]

It's called Head Start and it's available to each and every family that lives in the area around where I teach. Some of my kids rely on job training programs because they can't make it in college [[think those with cognitive impairments or severe learning disabilities). Without some form of job training, we are taking pride and quality of life away from some of our needier people.

It is critically important. There's no way to pay for it.

It would be a good idea to cut job-training programs and divert the money to preschool, as most studies show they don't lead to any more employment than doing nothing at all. However, conventional wisdom is that those programs are the greatest things since sliced bead, so good luck with that.

[DetroitTeacher]

English: I really couldn't have said it better myself [[in reference to your post which I won't quote). You told my story [[except teaching those cute lil ones...I've no patience for that)...and that of many teachers! I still wouldn't give it up for anything! If I am out and one of my kids, or former kids, runs to me and gives me a hug, whoever I am with cringes. They ask me if it's inappropriate. My response is that it might be the only hug the kid gets this week. One time a group of about 10 young men [[whose faaces I recognized but their names escaped me) came over, said "what up, old white lady?" and group hugged me. My friend was aghast and backed up. She thought I was being attacked! I laughed and had to explain. People just don't get it.

Often, parents would never come to see me or wouldn't talk to me on the phone. I called one young man's house to report that he had done a great job on a project [[parents never hear anything nice, right?). I spoke with his mother, giving this kid praises. She yelled at me and told me not to ever contact her again, she "didn't give a shit, he's gonna be in prison soon anyway". I cried. I've been to countless funerals for too many kids. I was just at a funeral for kid in July...a kid who NEVER got into trouble and was one of the nicest kids I had ever had. Wrong place, wrong time.

I, too, am the secret keeper for my students [[if I must report by law, I will). I also have had kids find out where I live and have popped over because they were having issues. I don't let them in my house either [[for fear of something appearing to be what it isn't) but I feed them and we talk. I am glad to do that for the kids.

I wish non educators could feel what I feel, could have half the satisfaction that I have from my job. I really just don't know how to explain it to people without having them experience it!

[DetroitTeacher]

Some kids have these soft skills when they are little. It's growing up in a shitty environment where no one has any faith in you [[at home) that makes it a bit difficult to hang on to those soft skills they once had. Preschool won't do it, we need to change society's views on the kids and education and we need to have more involved parents. It's very difficult for a kid to concentrate on classes and not be a behavior issue when they are: hungry, abused, on the wrong meds, told they are stupid and will end up in prison...just like "yo daddy", tired from staying up all night because something was going down, raising their parents, raising their younger siblings, pregnant and it's still a secret, gay and it's still a secret, homeless, watched their loved one be murdered, been shot at, been stabbed, been in jail, can't see because of lack of eyeglasses, are watching their parents slowly kill themselves with drugs/fast lifestyle, and I could go on. No amount of preschool can prepare my kids for some of the stuff they deal with...and I get that. Those are just some of the issues I deal with EVERY DAY and EVERY HOUR!

Teaching just isn't teaching, it's helping these kids escape their lives and be better people, too. More often than not, I have no answers for my kids. I wish I did.

Would K-12 educators in Detroit be willing to give up some percentage of their pay if it meant that it went to mandatory preschool for every student? Preschool is where kids learn the "soft-skills" that so many seem to be missing in later grades.

So, if 20% of their time is spent teaching kids basic life skills they lack, as English seems to be claiming, would they be willing to give up 20% of their paycheck if their job was that much easier?

[JBMcB]

It's called Head Start and it's available to each and every family that lives in the area around where I teach.

Head Start has problems. Students coming out of Head Start aren't necessarily better off than those who don't attend, and usually do worse than those coming out of regular preschool. We need high quality preschool for every Detroit student, and attendance should be mandatory.

Some of my kids rely on job training programs because they can't make it in college [[think those with cognitive impairments or severe learning disabilities).

Sorry, I meant to say career re-training, not vocational training. IE re-training those who lost their job. It just doesn't work.

[JBMcB]

It's growing up in a shitty environment where no one has any faith in you [[at home) that makes it a bit difficult to hang on to those soft skills they once had. Preschool won't do it..

It helps, a lot:

http://www.tyc.state.tx.us/prevention/hiscope.html

It is, by far, the best bang for the buck. Preschool gets you better results, dollar for dollar, than any other spending, including reducing class size, summer programs, outreach, etc...

Do you have data showing otherwise, other than your own observations?

[DetroitTeacher]

No. I was just saying that, even though preschool is great...it's the stuff that happens to the kids when they are a bit older that causes all the issues [[like some I had mentioned). I am a strong advocate of quality preschool, don't get me wrong. I just think that we really need to help those kids [[and their parents) who get lost after preschool because of their environment. Preschool alone can't solve all the problems my kids face each day.

It would be wonderful if DPS would offer it as part of a pre-K program in the public schools, but you really can't enforce parents sending their children to a program when laws can't even be enforced to have parents send their kids to school during K-12.

I don't have any data [[and am, quite frankly, too exhausted right now to hunt some down) other than my own observations of the kids I have [[in high school). Preschool can't prepare them for what they face as teens, at least not the issues my kids face each day. It might help, but it certainly isn't the end all to beat all to reality for my kids.

It helps, a lot:

http://www.tyc.state.tx.us/prevention/hiscope.html

It is, by far, the best bang for the buck. Preschool gets you better results, dollar for dollar, than any other spending, including reducing class size, summer programs, outreach, etc...

Do you have data showing otherwise, other than your own observations?

[DetroitTeacher]

Sorry, I meant to say career re-training, not vocational training. IE re-training those who lost their job. It just doesn't work.

Gotcha...lost in translation when I read it. I totally agree that preschool should come before retraining the current workforce.

[DetroitTeacher]

Would K-12 educators in Detroit be willing to give up some percentage of their pay if it meant that it went to mandatory preschool for every student? Preschool is where kids learn the "soft-skills" that so many seem to be missing in later grades.

So, if 20% of their time is spent teaching kids basic life skills they lack, as English seems to be claiming, would they be willing to give up 20% of their paycheck if their job was that much easier?

I would if EVERYONE would give 20% of their pay [[or even 10%). This type of program and the funding would avoid lots in the future [[prison, illiteracy, child abuse, etc) so it would be everyone's responsibility. I'd have some stipulations, though. The money would have to be given directly to the school, no going through downtown [[DPS). The school would have the right to hire and fire a teacher based on a variety of factors. I would insist that parenting classes go along with the preschool for the kids. Adult literacy, study skills, homework help...that sort of thing would be stressed for the parents. I would want to see a form of preschool that has a proven track record in other urban areas [[and have those folks come in and run it). I'd also want to have some of the old school "classes" come back...auditorium, penmanship, phonics, art, music, swimming, diversity, etc. Those are important to the development of lil ones [[and they are fun for them).

Perhaps I am dreaming here. I would gladly give my money DIRECTLY to the kids...if it were for the benefit of the KIDS. I have a hard time giving it to admin when they embezzled and "lost" money that could have gone toward avoiding this fiasco.

[English]

People in other industrialized countries actually do subsidize services for parents and children [[e.g., day care, preschool, child health and nutrition). Those countries generally have higher test scores and less poverty...

...but they pay a far higher percentage of taxes than we do.

I don't know that it will happen. I'd gladly give up extra tax dollars in order to have better services and infrastructure, but knowing the United States, they'd just go invade another country instead of fixing bridges and updating the sewer systems here. And I say that as the kid of a vet... I love the men and women of the military, but the military-industrial complex is incompatible with universal public education.

[wvernon]

The posts by teachers like DT and English are SO impressive here. FWIW, I have a [[long expired) teaching cert myself. Went an extra year to obtain it. Subbed for awhile, got my life threatened a couple times. Decided I'd stick with the original plan plus couldn't get a teaching gig anyway. Schools churned out way too many teaching degrees 25 years ago and they still do. I wouldn't be a teacher in DPS for ANY amount of money. So I'm stuck training Mexican engineers on how to do my job [[Ford's long term plan) and we all compete in the race to poverty. A race that won't end until the [[former) middle class gets hungry then all Hell's going to break loose.

[English]

Probably something for another thread, but I'd be curious to see if this comes true. There are plenty of teachers, engineers, lawyers, accountants, and others with professional degrees that make fairly modest money and have a fairly modest living. I have yet to come across one physician who does. If one is going to go $100K in debt obtaining an advanced degree and coming out making $50K a year [[and teachers don't even make that), why not go for $250K in debt, deal with an additional four years beyond school for residency [[getting paid about $50K a year, but with loan deferment), and start making a minimum of $200K at the age of 30.

You're right, of course. The reason why most folks don't choose the med school route is because it is a long road -- it is the ultimate delayed gratification scheme. Also, many would-be doctors wash out in premed prereqs.

We also lost a generation of smart people who could have been doctors to the dotcom and financial booms. Why delay financial independence and career prestige until you're nearly 30 if you can get hired on Wall Street right out of Harvard?

I think that we could create more med [[and nursing) schools. Why there are a ton of law schools and not nearly as many for health care professions is mystifying.