Whole Foods no longer a rumor

[Huggybear]

According to Crain's, 2.7 million is coming from the Feds and the State. Unless you can show that it can be used for "far more important matters," [[i.e., is unrestricted cash) that part is just found money.

1.5 million is coming from local and community foundation funds [[whatever that means). You don't know what that means, and neither do I. It could mean 90% foundations, 10% city. Or the reverse. Or 100% city. But the bottom line is that 1.5 million caps your "worst case" from the standpoinbt of contribution by the city.

If it takes $4.2 million to bring 75 jobs to Detroit then, yes, walked away from the deal and concentrated on other - far more important - matters.

As for starting another group, if anything if would DetroitRealism - but I digress.

[Huggybear]

OK - I'll flinch -- such as? Remember $1.2 of it is a tax credit, $1.5 is from the State. That leaves you with $1.5 local and community funds to play with [[I'll even allow you to assume you get all of the $1.5). Maybe you could build a school with that, but you won't have the kids to fill it. You could pay 15 cops [[full loaded with benefits for one year). You could knock down a few buildings. Ok – help me out here??

Agrahlma:

You actually beat me to it - sorry for the duplicative post.

In addition to the question of what you would spend the money on, Frank harbors a belief that there is nothing such as restricted funding. If memory serves, he argued that restricted demo funding for certain buildings should have been diverted to rehabilitating or mothballing them [[or others). BUT:

Government money [[if it is a cash equivalent) is often restricted either by the source [[or by budgeting). If it's a tax credit, it's not cash at all, and it's only available if a development condition is met.

If there is foundation money involved in a deal, you can bet that it is restricted. Foundations require specific proposals and then require accounting of funds.

And in either event, violating the terms of restricted funding puts you out of business with funders.

HB

[agrahlma]

Agrahlma:

You actually beat me to it - sorry for the duplicative post.

In addition to the question of what you would spend the money on, Frank harbors a belief that there is nothing such as restricted funding. If memory serves, he argued that restricted demo funding for certain buildings should have been diverted to rehabilitating or mothballing them [[or others). BUT:

Government money [[if it is a cash equivalent) is often restricted either by the source [[or by budgeting). If it's a tax credit, it's not cash at all, and it's only available if a development condition is met.

If there is foundation money involved in a deal, you can bet that it is restricted. Foundations require specific proposals and then require accounting of funds.

And in either event, violating the terms of restricted funding puts you out of business with funders.

HB

No problem - you did a much better job of explaining it than I did [[or ever could do).

[mwilbert]

Just want to agree with bham1982 on one thing. There is little, if any, similarity in subsidizing a retail food store and subsidizing an industrial plant. The food store can only recycle money within the region--certainly a bit more might end up in Detroit proper, but there aren't going to be significant sales outside SE Michigan, and the profits if any will mostly vanish from the area, possibly unlike the profits of the local folks who run Spartan stores. On the other hand, pretty much any industrial business sells mostly outside the local region, bringing money into the area which would not otherwise be available.

There are clearly intangible benefits from having Whole Foods in midtown, and those intangible benefits could create economic activity which would eventually justify this investment, but the mechanism is much more indirect and uncertain.

[gthomas]

I totally agree, I'm one of those persons. Right along most of my friends who live in Midtown/Downtown area, also who lives far as the north eastside. We all will shop there and any other business in Detroit proper. We will still continue to shop @ Eastern Market and Avalon Bakery too. People forget we still have a significant numbers of residents here and I believe census will grow, if hasn't already in the area to support WF. Within two years I will NEVER set foot outside the city for ANYTHING! ALL my money will stay here, my friends too. wouldn't that be a great feeling. People HATE to see this city grow, is it a crime?? It's SAD to me...ANY NEW DEVELOPMENT WILL BENEFIT, in my book!

I just completely disagree. A Whole Foods means more people living in the city, more people shopping at nearby stores, and likely increased retail filling in the gaps in the area. It means more jobs in the City. It means money for suppliers [[Avalon, McClure's, etc.) It may mean increased property values. That means income for the city and for businesses in the City. It's certainly worth $1 million of City money. No question in my mind.

The state money WILL be conditioned upon the project happening and operating for several years, with the requisite job creation. They always are - these agreements are quite stringent.

Further, this is not re-allocating the money already spent at independent grocers in the city. My wife, for instance, does her shopping at Eastern Market and the Ann Arbor Whole Foods [[where she works). She's one of those organic/natural fans. When the Whole Foods arrives, ALL of our groceries will be purchased in the City. There are others like us. Further, I guarantee you that many people who work in Midtown and elsewhere in the City, yet live in the suburbs, will do significant business at the Detroit Whole Foods. They can swing by the Whole Foods right next to their employer [[the hospitals, Wayne State, etc.) after work.

[kraig]

I doubt there will be a lack of parking. The urban WF here in Oakland has rooftop parking. Maybe one of the reasons for the high price tag has to do with incorporating parking?

There's not enough room for rooftop parking on a 20,000 square foot building. The problem is going to be getting the traffic in and out of the store's parking lot. Being surrounded by metered and paid parking, a lot of people are going to try and park there all day or at the very least park there while they take care of business in one of the surrounding businesses. Which will take parking away from some of their potential customers. Not to mention the evening trade possibly being affected by the City now issuing parking tickets until 10 o' clock in the evening.

Lack of parking the grocery store not to far from there on Woodward [[Zoccaro's?) a lot.

[gthomas]

You hit it on point!!!! I complain to this people on here who always have something NEGATIVE to say about new development. It's a freaking CRIME to them...between NOW and a few years we will be hearing more new development in the news around here! Either Housing, Infrastructure, Retail, Commercial, Entertainment etc..

I am always amazed by the number of people on this forum who bitch about every new project, complaining that its insignificant, its not gonna do enough, its not going to help the neighborhoods, the new jobs won't pay enough, blah blah blah. News flash, there are no silver bullets.

Of course a new, small WF won't a start a stampede of new residents to Midtown and magically start huge new housing developments. Like every new development, its just a piece of the puzzle. Every new restaurant, coffee shop, retail store, etc etc gradually makes the area more attractive and successful. Its the sum of all of the redevelopment that counts. I think having WF in the Midtown area will be a big plus, and will definitely improve the image of the area.

I think the new group should be Grumpy Naysayers.

[Crumbled_pavement]

You hit it on point!!!! I complain to this people on here who always have something NEGATIVE to say about new development. It's a freaking CRIME to them...between NOW and a few years we will be hearing more new development in the news around here! Either Housing, Infrastructure, Retail, Commercial, Entertainment etc..

Let me know when it spreads to the rest of Detroit. I'll be happy if it ever hits my neighborhood - or anywhere remotely close to it.

[gthomas]

Which neighborhood your located in?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Let me know when it spreads to the rest of Detroit. I'll be happy if it ever hits my neighborhood - or anywhere remotely close to it.

I believe it will never hit the neighborhoods without first hitting Midtown and the CBD.

[rid0617]

We have Whole Foods all over the place here. They are highly over rated, prices are a joke and I never went back. On the funny side, there are a great place for fresh goats milk

[Dbest]

Will they accept food stamps? I think they should. Certainly would help their sales.

[iheartthed]

they gonna accept bridge cards? lol

I've seen EBT cards used at the Columbus Circle store in Manhattan.

[Bham1982]

I believe you're the same person who never heard of people moving out of Detroit due to cost of living. No offense, but you haven't been listening.

I just think that the folks you hang around aren't representative of the general Metro Detroit demographic.

Again, I have never heard someone claim that they wanted to buy in Detroit, but it was just so much more expensive than the suburbs. Not once.

And I have never heard that someone bought a home because of a grocery store. Not even once.

[Meddle]

The problem is going to be getting the traffic in and out of the store's parking lot.

What makes you think there will be any traffic to speak of?

[Meddle]

Simply having a Whole Foods in the city will encourage certain people to relocate to the city.

A Whole Foods means more people living in the city,

I'd say there's pretty much a zero chance of that.

[iheartthed]

I'm not sure what I think of this yet....but for comparison, the AA WF @ Washtenaw and Huron Parkway is ~45,000 SF. The WH that I shop at on occasion in Greenville is also about the same size.

The site is roughly rectangular 345'x210' or around 72,000 sf. [[That calculates out to 1.66 acres, so they must be including some land that is currently parking for the ellington or the walkway as well.) This means the store's footprint will be between 1/4 and 1/3 of the site according to what we've read. [[Unless there will be other retail spaces in the development.)

If I remember the AA store right, these are pretty spacious stores. I would actually expect that prepared foods would be a smaller part of a Detroit Whole Foods, saving a fair amount of space. The one in Greenville also has a huge cosmetics section that takes a huge chunk out of the middle of the store.

I believe getting this store is important for central Detroit's long term prospects, but at the same time, I don't like public incentive-based economic development. That said, we've seen the state waste waste in the vacinity of 50 million dollars gold-plating the I-96 interchanges at Wixom and Beck roads for the private benefit of a number of developers and landholders out there. Compared to that, a couple of million isn't really that much money.

I don't think 20,000 square feet is that small for an urban grocery store. Even in the days of Farmer Jack most Detroit grocery stores probably fell in the 20-30K feet range.

[iheartthed]

I just think that the folks you hang around aren't representative of the general Metro Detroit demographic.

Again, I have never heard someone claim that they wanted to buy in Detroit, but it was just so much more expensive than the suburbs. Not once.

And I have never heard that someone bought a home because of a grocery store. Not even once.

You're arguing something different from what we were talking about. We're talking about the sample of people who would consider living in Detroit but don't. From our anecdotal experiences, we've found that many of those people choose not to live there because of higher living costs compared to the suburbs.

Most people in suburban Detroit would not consider living in Detroit under pretty much any circumstance, so these people do not count for the purposes of the discussion.

[Novine]

"Further, I guarantee you that many people who work in Midtown and elsewhere in the City, yet live in the suburbs, will do significant business at the Detroit Whole Foods. They can swing by the Whole Foods right next to their employer [[the hospitals, Wayne State, etc.) after work."

People have made this claim before. I don't know anyone who does grocery shopping this way. Grab a bottle of wine or a specialty item for the wife's birthday before heading home? Maybe. But the idea that people are going to get out of work, go shopping at WF and then drive 30 - 45 minutes home to the suburbs isn't going to happen.

[bartock]

Figured there would be incentives, but this is practically a giveaway. Competition is good for the marketplace, but it isn't competition when one side gets a $4-5 million head start. YOBS would probably be open next week on 10% of that [[not sure what the insurance dispute amount is). And why 2013?

[hamtown mike]

But the idea that people are going to get out of work, go shopping at WF and then drive 30 - 45 minutes home to the suburbs isn't going to happen.

A trip to Whole Foods sounds like a great way to let rush hour traffic die down.

I hope they hire Kim and name their produce section Kim's Produce.

[iheartthed]

At least it's not unprecedented for a government to subsidize WF: http://dcmetrocentric.com/2011/05/02...al-in-trouble/

Last year everyone was getting excited about plans to bring a Whole Foods to 800 New Jersey Ave SE as part of a larger residential and retail complex [[rendering pictured), but the Post is now reporting that the developer William Smith & Co is no longer trying to secure a $8 million tax abatement and the prospects aren’t looking that good.

[SWMAP]

It is just not right that this market should be allocated tax incentives. What about HoneyBee? What about Ryan's and Gigante? They are all three fine markets and they do it on their own. So they are rewarded by having competition move in that has tax subsidies? Why not give the good, existing markets a tax-break for a period of a few years?

[Zozo]

People have made this claim before. I don't know anyone who does grocery shopping this way. Grab a bottle of wine or a specialty item for the wife's birthday before heading home? Maybe. But the idea that people are going to get out of work, go shopping at WF and then drive 30 - 45 minutes home to the suburbs isn't going to happen.

People do this at WF all over the country. Why wouldn't they do it in Detroit?

[kraig]

What makes you think there will be any traffic to speak of?

Because things are obviously going to go smooth, like they normally do in Detroit. After purchasing some groceries at Whole Foods, I can cruise on down to Seldom Blues or Asian Village and grab something to eat before returning home to my Loft on the River that's been developed by Dave Bing.