Grosse Pointe Schools to become school of choice?

[Goose]

the logic, or lack thereof being displayed on this thread is mind boggling

Detroit will retain residents, and/or attract higher income residents by being able to send their kids to schools outside of Detroit??? REALLY????

there are other services the suburbs, Grosse Pointe in particular recieve for their taxes... call the police in GP because your cat is stuck in a tree and within minutes you have 3-4 police cars and a fire ladder truck at your service.... maybe the GP police and fire service should be made to serve the entire Wayne county region, why should a home on 6 mile and woodward burn down when richy rich grosse pointers have good fire response...

[313WX]

I'm talking about the people who live and work in the city and end up moving at least their residences when their children reach school age. If the schools are bad, and going private is expensive, you just end up with a revolving door.

Even then, why would I commute two different directions if I live in Detroit and work downtown [[because I first must take my child to a school somewhere in the suburbs headed the opposite direction) when I can just live in the district where my child can reach their school by bus [[or walk there) and just commute straight to work without extra gas money being spent or extra time being wasted?

Also, what Goose said.

[mwilbert]

Detroit will retain residents, and/or attract higher income residents by being able to send their kids to schools outside of Detroit??? REALLY????

It is certainly possible. I know many people who live in districts where they were OK with the kids going to public school in the lower grades, but aren't satisfied with the schools in the upper grades and move their kids, or people who sent their older kids to the local public schools, didn't like the results, and sent their younger kids to private school. Those people didn't move to get to better districts--they sent their kids someplace else. It isn't as if this is an unknown phenomenon.

Consider a hypothetical family with not-yet-school-age kids living in Indian Village or EEV. When the kids need to go to school, they have to go someplace. Going to school outside Detroit [[say in GP) might be the most attractive nearby option. If they already live in IV, presumably they aren't bent out of shape over whatever other services they are or are not getting.

[Huggybear]

It is certainly possible. I know many people who live in districts where they were OK with the kids going to public school in the lower grades, but aren't satisfied with the schools in the upper grades and move their kids, or people who sent their older kids to the local public schools, didn't like the results, and sent their younger kids to private school. Those people didn't move to get to better districts--they sent their kids someplace else. It isn't as if this is an unknown phenomenon.

Consider a hypothetical family with not-yet-school-age kids living in Indian Village or EEV. When the kids need to go to school, they have to go someplace. Going to school outside Detroit [[say in GP) might be the most attractive nearby option. If they already live in IV, presumably they aren't bent out of shape over whatever other services they are or are not getting.

You hit the nail on the head, and this has been going on for decades. If you lived in Detroit and had two thin dimes to scrape together, you sent your kids to parochial schools. Fully 50% of my grade school's and 30% of my high school's students weren't even Catholic - and that was 20-25 years ago [[even then, only Renaissance and Cass were considered functional high schools by parents who had choices). And yes, 313WX, parents added to their commutes [[often the stay-at-home parents did the driving), even when it was in the opposite direction [[and by the way, I was addressing people who lived *and* worked in the city - not people who lived in Detroit and worked in Troy). But when the Archdiocese pulls the plug on parishes [[and schools), that option began to evaporate for all but a few.

Goose seems to be in some state of mind where you can translate [[1) requiring schools that receive state money to receive all students [[and their money) [[the tongue-in-cheek "Golden Rule") into [[2) some parallel universe where Detroit is somehow expropriating everything in the Pointes. This second point reminds me of stories I heard from white South Africans in the 2000s about how they needed to stockpile arms in case everything went all Robert Mugabe on them. Paranoia at its best.

My sneaking suspicion is that despite the griping, Grosse Pointe will need more students [[and their money) to contribute to its fixed costs [[school administration, buildings, etc). With an aging population and property values in the tank,* that/those district[[s) - undoubtedly designed around a larger and expanding student population) isn't/aren't going to be self-supporting based on students living in the Pointes.

HB

* In reference to Goose's question, a big reason why GP is unattractive as a place to live is that it seems the real estate market is never reaching bottom.

[Goose]

My sneaking suspicion is that despite the griping, Grosse Pointe will need more students [[and their money) to contribute to its fixed costs [[school administration, buildings, etc). With an aging population and property values in the tank,* that/those district[[s) - undoubtedly designed around a larger and expanding student population) isn't/aren't going to be self-supporting based on students living in the Pointes.

what part of the equation that grosse pointe schools spends $11,000 per student vs. the $7,000 that the school of choice kids will be bringing in makes your balance sheet look good?

where is the extra $4000 coming from and at what point do the residents decide they aren't subsidizing the extra $4000 and reduce the millage and take the school tax level to the state minimum?

and after that at what point do you think the grosse pointe school system declines to mediocrity?

even if everything I just said was untrue... and what you said comes to fruition, wouldn't it be best for the grosse pointe school district to decide if and when it want to participate in the school of choice to get all that good state money that doesn't equal what they are spending per student?

typically the "extra money" you think will be needed was voted on by our residents, and typically by an overwhelming majority, most homeowners in the grosse pointe community supported our strong school system, as this typically also supported home values....

enter school of choice and why do you think any resident would now decide to continue to fund that extra money?

[Huggybear]

Marginal cost versus marginal revenue. As discussed in the media, this is a "fill to capacity" issue, not one that requires any capacity to be increased.

$11,000 per student is the mean [[average) currently spent on N students. That is the sum of every expenditure of the system divided by every student. So if you have $11,000,000 in expenses and 1,000 students, then you spend $11,000 per student. For students beyond "N" students and up to the limit of the existing building/teacher/administrator capacity, the marginal cost is considerably less because you don't have to capture the cost of the physical plant [[or other fixed costs) nor do you have to hire additional staff. The marginal revenue is $7,000.

So if your system/faculty is built for 1,050 students and you only have 1,000, taking on 50 additional students gives you $350,000 you would not have had - without incurring many [[if any) significant additional costs.

And this brings one to another point: that an $11,000 per student spend may not actually be something to be proud of if it is the result of inefficient use of an overbuilt system. In the example about, the $350,000 recovered from the outside students is $350,000 that does not have to be raised from local taxpayers [[getting those extra students drives the per-pupil for the whole system down by $500). If the state forced the GPs to build more schools, then the "we pay $11K but only get $7K" analysis would come into play. But since not all costs scale 1:1 with the number of students [[for example, the same number of administrators might be able to handle significantly more students), it's more likely going to be $7K vs. some figure lower than $11K.

As for Grosse Pointe residents' engaging in a spite vote on the millage, it would be very self-destructive. The per-pupil spend is the equilibrium point for making the schools actually operate given their combination of fixed and variable costs; cutting back school funding by a huge amount [[without a massive restructuring) is a move that would likely destroy the school system and property values.

HB

what part of the equation that grosse pointe schools spends $11,000 per student vs. the $7,000 that the school of choice kids will be bringing in makes your balance sheet look good?

where is the extra $4000 coming from and at what point do the residents decide they aren't subsidizing the extra $4000 and reduce the millage and take the school tax level to the state minimum?

and after that at what point do you think the grosse pointe school system declines to mediocrity?

even if everything I just said was untrue... and what you said comes to fruition, wouldn't it be best for the grosse pointe school district to decide if and when it want to participate in the school of choice to get all that good state money that doesn't equal what they are spending per student?

typically the "extra money" you think will be needed was voted on by our residents, and typically by an overwhelming majority, most homeowners in the grosse pointe community supported our strong school system, as this typically also supported home values....

enter school of choice and why do you think any resident would now decide to continue to fund that extra money?

[Goose]

and who is going to decide what "capacity" is? [[one of the main "con" arguments against SOC)

is 20 students per teacher acceptable?... how about 50 students per teacher? think of all that extra marginal revenue? slap in a few more desks and its all profit!!!!

[Kevgoblue]

and who is going to decide what "capacity" is? [[one of the main "con" arguments against SOC)

is 20 students per teacher acceptable?... how about 50 students per teacher? think of all that extra marginal revenue? slap in a few more desks and its all profit!!!!

If the school system gets to choose, then most likely extra desks have already been ordered. The teachers can maintain their current pay & benefit structure and the administraitors can avoid long and contentious negotiations.
If the residents get to choose, then the current number of students per teacher is the absolute max that will allow a "quality" education.

[bailey]

and who is going to decide what "capacity" is? [[one of the main "con" arguments against SOC)

is 20 students per teacher acceptable?... how about 50 students per teacher? think of all that extra marginal revenue? slap in a few more desks and its all profit!!!!

Per flashpoint this weekend. the senator from up in the thumb that is apparently writing the legislation is "very concerned" about districts "gaming the system" so...that would be codespeak for "lansing is going to tell you if you are full or not."


As an aside. For the proponents of this measure.... how exactly does opening more exit doors really help DPS? I'm legitimately asking. because we're on page 8 of this thread and that discussion is curiously absent.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Then why when DPS lays off teachers, they receive their pink slips from DPS?

With all due respect, you should just stick with electrical engineering.

The districts have the delegated authority to manage their system. Threfore, for austerity purposes, teachers must be laid off.

FUrthermore, the name on the paychecks of DPS teachers is the State of Michigan and not the DPS. Therfore, ``He who pays the piper...

[Goose]

As an aside. For the proponents of this measure.... how exactly does opening more exit doors really help DPS? I'm legitimately asking. because we're on page 8 of this thread and that discussion is curiously absent.

agree, seems like the students currently in DPS that have the parents willing to go the extra distance and be actively involved in their kids education are the exact type of students that the DPS would want to retain....

that being said, if this does pass, its not like its going to be a free for all where every student from DPS is suddenly accepted into the GPS system. Lets hypothetically say 50 are accepted to a certain GP school......., how as a parent of a DPS student that didn't make the cutoff feel, now their kid is stuck attending a school where the top 50 students with parents that actively participate in their education are gone.......

[bailey]

The districts have the delegated authority to manage their system. Threfore, for austerity purposes, teachers must be laid off.

FUrthermore, the name on the paychecks of DPS teachers is the State of Michigan and not the DPS. Therfore, ``He who pays the piper...

If it's so cut and dry, then why is everyone all up in arms over EFMs?

[HistoryNotHisStory]

If it's so cut and dry, then why is everyone all up in arms over EFMs?

I agree... Why all the negativity about Emergency Financial Managers?

If the state has the final say, why is everyone complaining.

[bailey]

I agree... Why all the negativity about Emergency Financial Managers?

If the state has the final say, why is everyone complaining.

Ok, then why have local school boards at all then? One state school board, one state school district, one per pupil allowance. problem solved.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Ok, then why have local school boards at all then? One state school board, one state school district, one per pupil allowance. problem solved.

I believe that a Super District is a great idea. Eliminate all school boards!

[Zacha341]

I think the observed outcomes of EFM management speaks to the complaint. Even Roberts is varying his approach somewhat from his predecessor: Bobb.

I agree... Why all the negativity about Emergency Financial Managers?

If the state has the final say, why is everyone complaining.

[noggin]

I found an interesting link that shows how much money is spent per student. Detroit spends significantly more than GP schools. http://www.michigancapitolconfidenti...pi/fiscal.aspx

[bailey]

I found an interesting link that shows how much money is spent per student. Detroit spends significantly more than GP schools. http://www.michigancapitolconfidenti...pi/fiscal.aspx

Look at where the funds are coming from. The difference is that Detroit makes up the difference in Federal funds where as GP receives almost no federal funds and instead makes it up in local revenue. It is my understanding that the only funds that go with the child are the State funds....so therein lies the problem and the opposition to the plan.

As an aside, it would appear from the Draft Bill posted online, the capacity WILL be set locally. So...pretty much eviscerating the purpose of the "mandatory" rule. At best only a handful of seats will open and it seems like it will be up to the district to choose who gets them.

in the end, seems like much ado about nothing.

[Goose]

Look at where the funds are coming from. The difference is that Detroit makes up the difference in Federal funds where as GP receives almost no federal funds and instead makes it up in local revenue. It is my understanding that the only funds that go with the child are the State funds....so therein lies the problem and the opposition to the plan.

As an aside, it would appear from the Draft Bill posted online, the capacity WILL be set locally. So...pretty much eviscerating the purpose of the "mandatory" rule. At best only a handful of seats will open and it seems like it will be up to the district to choose who gets them.

in the end, seems like much ado about nothing.

you are correct, the Detroit student going to a Grosse Pointe school under SOC would not have the federal fund follow him to the GP school district, only the state funds...

and it took and is taking a very concerted effort by a large number of people to change the wording on the proposed legislation