Grosse Pointe Schools to become school of choice?

[miketoronto1]

I think it is disgusting how cities, suburbs, and towns in the United States debate about something like education, and who is better, and wanting to keep people who not as privileged as them out.

This is public education we are talking about, and it is about time places like Metro Detroit had unified school districts which spent the same amount of money per student across all municipal borders.
It is not right that someone in one town should get double the funding someone in a town next door gets, etc.

If I was the governor, I would get rid of this Schools of Choice idea, and instead I would do the following.
-Upload education to the State.
-Create metropolitan wide school districts
-Local municipalities would stop charging a tax for schools
-The State would enact a new school tax on property tax bills
-Equal funding for all
-Same standardized teaching for all students across the state

[bailey]

I think it is disgusting how cities, suburbs, and towns in the United States debate about something like education, and who is better, and wanting to keep people who not as privileged as them out.

This is public education we are talking about, and it is about time places like Metro Detroit had unified school districts which spent the same amount of money per student across all municipal borders.
It is not right that someone in one town should get double the funding someone in a town next door gets, etc.

If I was the governor, I would get rid of this Schools of Choice idea, and instead I would do the following.
-Upload education to the State.
-Create metropolitan wide school districts
-Local municipalities would stop charging a tax for schools
-The State would enact a new school tax on property tax bills
-Equal funding for all
-Same standardized teaching for all students across the state

Proposition A already did [[essentially) what you are talking about...from a funding level. 95% of the state's districts have per pupil funding in the 7000-8500 range. the remaining 5% choose to tax themselves more...and receive proportionally less from the state because of it.

Now, of course, there already is a means to provide equal funding for all students no matter where they live — it's called school vouchers. But those are dirty words around here for some reason. Those who complain the most about "inequitable funding" are also the loudest opponents of eliminating inequity by giving parents the choice of where to school their children. Frankly, i would bet serious objections to the cross district busing go away if, as part of the proposal, matching local funds come with the kid.

but again, at the end of the day, this open border situation that is supposedly "creating competition" between districts[[either through outright wealth grab or by vouchers) is pure fantasy and will do nothing but result in the further depopulation of DPS.

[Novine]

"Frankly, i would bet serious objections to the cross district busing go away if, as part of the proposal, matching local funds come with the kid."

You would be wrong. Parents in the Pointes or Bloomfield Hills don't want kids from other communities coming in their door, no matter how much money they have attached to them. If anyone thinks that's a commentary on color,you'll find it has less to do with color than it does to do with social order.

[bailey]

"Frankly, i would bet serious objections to the cross district busing go away if, as part of the proposal, matching local funds come with the kid."

You would be wrong. Parents in the Pointes or Bloomfield Hills don't want kids from other communities coming in their door, no matter how much money they have attached to them. If anyone thinks that's a commentary on color,you'll find it has less to do with color than it does to do with social order.

Yeah, i mean what would I know? I only went the meetings and live in the community in question.

[Bham1982]

You would be wrong. Parents in the Pointes or Bloomfield Hills don't want kids from other communities coming in their door, no matter how much money they have attached to them.

I see no evidence of this.

Bloomfield Hills schools aggressively pursues nonresidents for the tuition dollars.

I doubt they want school-of-choice, but they very much want paying nonresidents, of which they have many.

[Novine]

"Yeah, i mean what would I know? I only went the meetings and live in the community in question."

Which is a cross-section of the parents in the district? I didn't think so.

[professorscott]

To anyone opposed to mandatory schools of choice, I would like you to consider the following scenario. I am going to propose that we manage the idea of "grocery stores" the way you would like us to continue to manage schools. Here's how it would work.

You are only allowed to shop at the grocery store closest to your home, no matter what. It doesn't matter whether it is a good grocery store or a God-awful mess of a pit, whichever one is geographically closest to your home, you must shop there.

Now, do any of you think that is a good idea? Do any of you think that would be a benefit to our region? Well then why in God's earth do you think it is a good idea to force children, based on artificial boundaries, to attend a particular school whether it is good or God-awful? Why is it a good idea that we should throw children into the trash-heap of hopelessness and poverty by making sure that the kids who live near crappy schools can't get a good education?

There is a weird confluence of bigotry and power-hungriness that is making strange political bedfellows on this issue. Grosse Pointers, many of them, and Coleman Young, Jr. are in agreement. It is a terrible shame that to many of these adults, it is more important that we continue to segregate [[by class or race) than that we try to give every child the best education possible.

So try out my grocery store analogy and try to convince me that this bizarre idea - bizarre with regard to stores, but how we in fact manage public education - benefits anyone whomsoever. Give it a try; convince me.

[Goose]

To anyone opposed to mandatory schools of choice, I would like you to consider the following scenario. I am going to propose that we manage the idea of "grocery stores" the way you would like us to continue to manage schools. Here's how it would work.

You are only allowed to shop at the grocery store closest to your home, no matter what. It doesn't matter whether it is a good grocery store or a God-awful mess of a pit, whichever one is geographically closest to your home, you must shop there.

Now, do any of you think that is a good idea? Do any of you think that would be a benefit to our region? Well then why in God's earth do you think it is a good idea to force children, based on artificial boundaries, to attend a particular school whether it is good or God-awful? Why is it a good idea that we should throw children into the trash-heap of hopelessness and poverty by making sure that the kids who live near crappy schools can't get a good education?

There is a weird confluence of bigotry and power-hungriness that is making strange political bedfellows on this issue. Grosse Pointers, many of them, and Coleman Young, Jr. are in agreement. It is a terrible shame that to many of these adults, it is more important that we continue to segregate [[by class or race) than that we try to give every child the best education possible.

So try out my grocery store analogy and try to convince me that this bizarre idea - bizarre with regard to stores, but how we in fact manage public education - benefits anyone whomsoever. Give it a try; convince me.

you grocery store analogy is completly off mark... if you want to make this more close an anology, then you would have to privatize ALL schools, making the choice a free market one.... based on quality and cost.... crappy schools in the free market would not be chosen and would go out of business, schools, like grocery stores would have to compete for your business.... unlike now where the state sends money to the crappy school just as they send it to the good schools..... your grocery store analogy is like picking which place to line up to get your government cheeze.....

do you think the quality of the schools in say a system like Grosse Pointe would be as good if they soley relied on Lansing money to run? NO, the citizens voted to tax themselves additionally to provide better schools.....

[bailey]

To anyone opposed to mandatory schools of choice, I would like you to consider the following scenario. I am going to propose that we manage the idea of "grocery stores" the way you would like us to continue to manage schools. Here's how it would work.

You are only allowed to shop at the grocery store closest to your home, no matter what. It doesn't matter whether it is a good grocery store or a God-awful mess of a pit, whichever one is geographically closest to your home, you must shop there.

Now, do any of you think that is a good idea? Do any of you think that would be a benefit to our region? Well then why in God's earth do you think it is a good idea to force children, based on artificial boundaries, to attend a particular school whether it is good or God-awful? Why is it a good idea that we should throw children into the trash-heap of hopelessness and poverty by making sure that the kids who live near crappy schools can't get a good education?

There is a weird confluence of bigotry and power-hungriness that is making strange political bedfellows on this issue. Grosse Pointers, many of them, and Coleman Young, Jr. are in agreement. It is a terrible shame that to many of these adults, it is more important that we continue to segregate [[by class or race) than that we try to give every child the best education possible.

So try out my grocery store analogy and try to convince me that this bizarre idea - bizarre with regard to stores, but how we in fact manage public education - benefits anyone whomsoever. Give it a try; convince me.

your analogy is what is bizarre. It is so bizarre so completely devoid of logical sense and so divorced from reality that there can be no response.

+1 on gooses response that bad grocery stores go out of business, but the DFT and MEA do not allow bad schools to do the same. Further, grocery stores compete to make a PROFIT... are you going to allow schools to profit off of kids?

and , since we're being absurd, perhaps you can explain why the schools in Detroit would look any better than its grocery stores should we go to your model? Will it be a "school desert" as well as being a "food desert". Will detroit need to spend 2+ million to get a decent school to set up in detroit the same way it had to get Whole Foods to maybe open a store? Why are you advocating that, in order to get an education...or fresh fruit.... a child DOES NOT have a RIGHT to have that as close to where they live as possible and NOT 45 minutes away [[one way)? On the flip side, what happens to the Grosse pointe schools when 40,000 extra kids, above and beyond capacity, and who are paying half the cost, start going there? to keep on the absurd grocery store track.... what happens when the entire Walmart customer base shows up at a mom and pop corner grocery store all at the same time?

[Goose]

to keep on the absurd grocery store track.... what happens when the entire Walmart customer base shows up at a mom and pop corner grocery store all at the same time?

and they show up wanting filet mignon but only having enough money on their bridge card for tube steak.....

[miketoronto1]

The entire school issue has little to do with funding and more to do with family.
The reason DPS schools perform so badly is because the majority of kids come from broken families with little love for education, etc.

Until the family issues are fixed, sending kids to Groose Pointe or other places is not going to fix the problem.

Even here in Toronto where schools are equally funded, etc. Students who come from broken families and a culture of not valuing education, perform just as bad as kids in DPS schools. Yet kids who come from your average family, perform top notch at the very same schools.

You gotta address the underlying family issues. Otherwise all the funding in the world is not going to fix education.
But that being said, we have to stop the competition between school districts. And this is why metropolitan wide boards are needed.
For Detroit, do it by county.

-Wayne County Schools
-Macomb County Schools
-Oakland County Schools
An example of a regional school district, serving one part of a metropolitan area
http://www.peel.edu.on.ca/

[bailey]

You gotta address the underlying family issues. Otherwise all the funding in the world is not going to fix education.
But that being said, we have to stop the competition between school districts. And this is why metropolitan wide boards are needed.
For Detroit, do it by county.

If funding isn't the answer, then why would competition be a bad thing? you just said, no matter how much money is going to educate the student, the issues start at home. how is equalizing funding or region wide school districts changing anything? you're contradicting yourself..

And of course, you're still ignoring the fact that 95% of the schools in Michigan receive between 7000 and 8500 per pupil...is dragging down the 5% really going to solve anything?

[Goose]

is dragging down the 5% really going to solve anything?

no, but it will make some people feel they have stuck it to the man and leveled the field, to the level of mediocrity at best.... if they can't have it [[quality schools), then no one should......

[noggin]

Between the state congressional redistricting and the cram down school of choice I think the residents have had enough. Link
Another link

[Roq]

Forgive me if I'm repeating what another has already pointed out, but for those of you suggesting that students can just bus in from Detroit to schools in Macomb county [[Clintondale, Mount Clemens, etc.) that isn't correct. Every district in Macomb county that participates in schools of choice requires residency in Macomb county..

I'm going to interject here because I'm very familiar with this.
My daughter graduated from Clintondale in 2010. A sizeable portion of her classmates were from Detroit but who used the addresses of Aunts, cousins and other assorted relatives to establish residency.

Ok, carry on.

[1953]

I send my daughter to Grosse Pointe Schools and don't want it open to choice. If I wanted her going to school with disadvantaged children, I would live in such a neighborhood and pay lower taxes.

[Kevgoblue]

I send my daughter to Grosse Pointe Schools and don't want it open to choice. If I wanted her going to school with disadvantaged children, I would live in such a neighborhood and pay lower taxes.

I assume your comment about your daughter attending a school with disadvantaged children was in reference to Detroit.
If thats the case you would actually pay lower taxes. Grosse Pointe millage rates is right around 45 mills. [[I believe Grosse Pointe Woods is a couple points higher) But once you cross the border into the city your millage rate balloons to 67 mills.

[Bham1982]

I assume your comment about your daughter attending a school with disadvantaged children was in reference to Detroit.
If thats the case you would actually pay lower taxes.

You would pay lower taxes in Detroit, because the median price of a Detroit home is much, much, lower. And new construction or nicer neighborhoods are generally covered by NEZ tax reductions.

[R8RBOB]

What's sad about school of choice is that Detroit is not considered as a district that have school of choice. Picture it.....you would think the suburban communities would want their children going to the more financed schools in the big city. [[if only this was real but it is not) Instead, we have the kids in the very big and very poor city fleeing to the smaller suburban school districts in search of a better education. Who would have thought?

[Detroitej72]

I'm going to interject here because I'm very familiar with this.
My daughter graduated from Clintondale in 2010. A sizeable portion of her classmates were from Detroit but who used the addresses of Aunts, cousins and other assorted relatives to establish residency.

It's my understanding that under Snyder's plan, a parent would be able to send their kids to any school in the state.

[bailey]

It's my understanding that under Snyder's plan, a parent would be able to send their kids to any school in the state.

That is the plan.

Gov. Rick Snyder's proposal that would mandate all of the state's 551 school districts to enroll students who live outside their districts if they have room.

A complete free for all. If there is capacity you MUST open it. The debate now is going to be over the definition of "capacity". Just because GP South can fit 60 students in a class room will they be forced to?

[Det_ard]

What's sad about school of choice is that Detroit is not considered as a district that have school of choice. Picture it.....you would think the suburban communities would want their children going to the more financed schools in the big city. [[if only this was real but it is not) Instead, we have the kids in the very big and very poor city fleeing to the smaller suburban school districts in search of a better education. Who would have thought?

Its not primarily the money that makes a school better or worse, its the people. Parents/kids/teachers/admin are the key.

[Jason]

I think it's a good idea.

It's the best education for the greatest number of kids. Ultimately DPS and the lower performing suburban schools are the losers but the kids and our region as a whole is the winner.

Also, only unfilled capacity is open to non-residents, so it's not like the schools are going to be taken over by non-residents. There would just be some open spots hear and there.

Detroit and Grosse Pointe is the greatest contrast, but even there, the kid from Detroit who would otherwise live their life in poverty because of the parents they were born to, get to have an education and get to be exposed to that culture, and make the friendships and connections that will land them jobs as adults.


I do think:

-The schools should get to pick who out of the many that will apply for the spots, but without knowing the location or income or name of the applicant [[so that they can't discriminate).

-The state money should go where the students go.

-It would be more successful if the non-resident students entered the district as younger kids, and probably not high schoolers, since you can't expect 16 year olds to instantly learn the good habits to succeed at a real school, and at the same time learn enough in two years to make up for a lifetime of dysfunctional education.

-There should probably still be some kind of geographic limits, since schools are also communities, and if the schools are too far away the kids won't be able to participate effectively in that community even if they manage to get to school everyday. A kid from eastpointe can probably get to grosse pointe and participate in that community, but probably not Bloomfield.

[Detroitnerd]

Interesting segment on the Craig Fahle Show yesterday. I liked that Craig kept picking away at the "local control" people and refusing to let them "speak in code."

[Goose]

Interesting segment on the Craig Fahle Show yesterday. I liked that Craig kept picking away at the "local control" people and refusing to let them "speak in code."

want to elaborate on what that means for those who didn't hear the show? or can I just assume that he's just alluding that the opposition are all racists......