Grosse Pointe Schools to become school of choice?

[Goose]

well said Bartock, the issue is of CHOICE, the choice of the local school district to participate or not in the school of choice system.... no ones taking the entire program away, the proposal is only to mandate the program for all schools so that there is NO choice at the local level...

as usual, liberals only believe in freedom of choice for two things, abortion and gay rights, other than that they believe big government should choose what is good for everyone else.....

i am disgusted by Snyders support for this proposal, another RINO, his time as governor will be short.....

RECALL SNYDER

[Detroitej72]

RINO? Hell, the Repubs have become the party of the fringe these days. Snyder is more of what the party used to be like.

[bailey]

[QUOTE=East Detroit;260779]

I guess what's good for the goose ain't good for the gander. Tough shit, GP, it is a State education.

well, go ahead and slay a golden goose that is a "donor" community and see where it gets you.

We should have one DPS, including all of Metro Detroit. Then each child would have an equal chance.

Again, as study after study show, it's less about the funding and more about the home environment and parent involvement in the schools.

Except what I am reading is that some people don't want equality... they want education for children based on how rich or poor the parents are. They want to pile on the millages for the rich kids and kick the poor kids to the curb. I say no local millages. If you have extra money, give it to the State to distribute for the State education.

says someone NOT paying for the extra millages. Look the fact is GP has decided that the state money it receives is not enough, so its residents decided to tax themselves more. Prop A did exactly what you are advocating.. .and resulted in exactly what people expected....too little funding across the board. If you want GP schools, move to GP. It really is that simple. 59k gets you a bungalow on beaconsfield in GPPark near Trombley Elementary.

Is it socialist to protect and look out for the minority and raise up our weakest? Then I suppose the Constitution of the United States is a socialist document.

how is 1.3 billion in state and local tax dollars short changing the students of Detroit?

[Detroitnerd]

I find it interesting that a lot of the same people who keep complaining about how Detroit Public Schools are dysfunctional [[don't get me wrong; I haven't attended, but there seems to be a LOT of truth to that) are often the same ones who then complain about how well-funded DPS is -- esp. with the state kicking in money. I mean, if an organization is that dysfunctional, then, really NO amount of money is going to fix the problem, right? So it would seem to me you'd want to consider the dysfunction before pointing to the funding levels. Unless it's just a rhetorical flourish...

[bailey]

I find it interesting that a lot of the same people who keep complaining about how Detroit Public Schools are dysfunctional [[don't get me wrong; I haven't attended, but there seems to be a LOT of truth to that) are often the same ones who then complain about how well-funded DPS is -- esp. with the state kicking in money. I mean, if an organization is that dysfunctional, then, really NO amount of money is going to fix the problem, right? So it would seem to me you'd want to consider the dysfunction before pointing to the funding levels. Unless it's just a rhetorical flourish...

the point of discussing funding is to highlight the fallacy that DPS is somehow underfunded/not getting it's "fair share".

To your issue with the dysfunction within DPS .... how does emptying the district of students through schools of choice fix the dysfunction?

[Detroitnerd]

the point of discussing funding is to highlight the fallacy that DPS is somehow underfunded/not getting it's "fair share".

Yes, but if the school district is dysfunctional, then it's obvious no matter how much money it gets, the students are not getting their fair share, yes? Which was kind of my point, the way you brought up funding levels in response to the project of raising up at-risk students.

[mwilbert]

To your issue with the dysfunction within DPS .... how does emptying the district of students through schools of choice fix the dysfunction?

It doesn't fix it, it just makes it irrelevant. Who cares how bad the DPS are if they have no students? Of course, then we could shut them all down, and they wouldn't be dysfunctional, just non-existent.

[bailey]

Yes, but if the school district is dysfunctional, then it's obvious no matter how much money it gets, the students are not getting their fair share, yes? Which was kind of my point, the way you brought up funding levels in response to the project of raising up at-risk students.

So, the solution is to make the "at risk" kids another district's responsibility and to never address DPSs failings? that's not solving the problem of DPS's dysfunction, it's just making it someone else's problem.

[Detroitnerd]

So, the solution is to make the "at risk" kids another district's responsibility and to never address DPSs failings? that's not solving the problem of DPS's dysfunction, it's just making it someone else's problem.

I'm just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. Take it or leave it.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

It doesn't fix it, it just makes it irrelevant. Who cares how bad the DPS are if they have no students? Of course, then we could shut them all down, and they wouldn't be dysfunctional, just non-existent.

PEOPLE WHY ARE WE VEERING OFF COURSE WITH RESPECT TO THE TOPIC?

The issue at hand is about the State of Michigan mandating School of Choice for ALL districts.

DPS is not an issue here.

Every district will be affected. Every district in the State of Michigan those who have volutarily participated in School of Choie and those who has presently OPTed out of the program

The Governor sees it as a way to improve education in the State and not in one or two Districts.

[bailey]

I'm just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. Take it or leave it.

What flaw? Why is DPS's dysfunction everyone else's responsibility BUT Detroit's?

If your solution is to entirely defund and dismantle DPS, and then ensure that every school of choicer went to their new district with enough to match local funds ... I'd be ok with that. But that isn't the proposal. The proposal is to have GP/bhams...every local municipality really.... continue to share revenue to support DPS's continued death spiral AND subsidize it's refugees that show up in its classrooms.

[mwilbert]

PEOPLE WHY ARE WE VEERING OFF COURSE WITH RESPECT TO THE TOPIC?

The issue at hand is about the State of Michigan mandating School of Choice for ALL districts.

DPS is not an issue here.

Well, I half-agree with this. DPS isn't really the issue, but certainly the children of Detroit are by far the biggest reservoir of candidates for cross-district schooling. If the DPS were viable, the problems which might be caused by this change in the choice program could be more manageable, both practically and politically.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

What flaw? Why is DPS's dysfunction everyone else's responsibility BUT Detroit's?

Question: What has the dyfunctionality of DPS system has to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing.

Grosse Pointe opinion is that they want to be isloated from being a School of Choice. However, the Lansing and the Governor will make the final decision.

We all must remember that all Public Schools are under the State of Michigan. The State of Michigan has the final say on Public Education in our state.

Detroiters did not like the original School of Choice program initiated during the Engler years. Their complaint was the same as Grosse Pointe. The Tax Payers and citizens of that District loses power to determine what happens in a District. What we see happening with the School of Choice being mandated throughout all Public School Districts throughtout the State was preceded by State of Michigan taking away voters and taxpayers rights in Detroit.

What people fails to realize when we allow injustice and the rights to be taken away from any one group [[i.e. Detroit District), we ALL loses our rights.

SCHOOL of CHOICE in Michigan is a done Deal.

Grosse Pointe Schools will be inudated with students from Roseville, Harper Woods, Eastpointe, St Clair, Mt Clemens and Detroit. Many parents in the adjacent Districts will send their children to GP [[not only Detroit). I have empathy for the taxpayers of GP just like I have empathy for the taxpayers of Detroit.

However, I admire Synder courage to tackle Education in our state. Their is no quick-fix or easy solutions to the problems with Education in the State of Michigan. Michigan students and their scores are low and the Govenor as to try something.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Well, I half-agree with this. DPS isn't really the issue, but certainly the children of Detroit are by far the biggest reservoir of candidates for cross-district schooling. If the DPS were viable, the problems which might be caused by this change in the choice program could be more manageable, both practically and politically.

Just because Detroit has the largest District, does not make it a Detroit/Grosse Pointe issue.

What is at hand is the School Boards that desires the extra funding, but cannot get their constituients to agree on having a School of Choice. Taxpayers does not want to pay extra taxes to pay for the operation of the School Districts, but the School Boards in Michigan sees a lucrative oppurtunity to receive $70000 to $8000 per each non-district students.

For communities like, Madison Heights its a matter of raising taxes or welcoming non-district students.

[bailey]

Question: What has the dyfunctionality of DPS system has to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing.

Answer: EVERYTHING. But for the failings of DPS, there WOULD BE NO SCHOOLS OF CHOICE

Grosse Pointe opinion is that they want to be isloated from being a School of Choice. However, the Lansing and the Governor will make the final decision.

Well, they want to be isolated because they pay more than the state minimum to education their kids and they have no need to poach other districts kids to make payroll....like many school of choice districts.

Before destroying GP schools...why not take a look at why SCS has THREE school districts.

We all must remember that all Public Schools are under the State of Michigan. The State of Michigan has the final say on Public Education in our state.

Yes, the state running DPS worked out really well. Let's run on that.

Detroiters did not like the original School of Choice program initiated during the Engler years. Their complaint was the same as Grosse Pointe. The Tax Payers and citizens of that District loses power to determine what happens in a District. What we see happening with the School of Choice being mandated throughout all Public School Districts throughtout the State was preceded by State of Michigan taking away voters and taxpayers rights in Detroit.

No. Detroit's complaint is NOT the same as GP's complaint. Detroit's complaint is it's students would abandon the district in droves. Gp's complaint is that it will be awash in students it can't support. They are the opposite complaints really. And opening MORE districts doesn't answer Detroit's complaints, it only exacerbates it.

What people fails to realize when we allow injustice and the rights to be taken away from any one group [[i.e. Detroit District), we ALL loses our rights.

GP is not a failed municipality. GP schools are not a failed district. there is no need for outside intervention in GP.

SCHOOL of CHOICE in Michigan is a done Deal.

Mandatory participation, however, is not.

Grosse Pointe Schools will be inudated with students from Roseville, Harper Woods, Eastpointe, St Clair, Mt Clemens and Detroit. Many parents in the adjacent Districts will send their children to GP [[not only Detroit). I have empathy for the taxpayers of GP just like I have empathy for the taxpayers of Detroit.

Again the "solution" simply exacerbates the problem of DPS abandonment.

However, I admire Synder courage to tackle Education in our state. Their is no quick-fix or easy solutions to the problems with Education in the State of Michigan. Michigan students and their scores are low and the Govenor as to try something.

and when the "high scoring" districts scores plummet as anyone with means pulls their kid out and every millage fails going forward? what then? make private schools illegal?

[Detroitnerd]

What flaw? Why is DPS's dysfunction everyone else's responsibility BUT Detroit's?

It's the disconnect between saying they're well-funded and the acknowledgment that they're so poorly run that funding hardly matters.

[bailey]

It's the disconnect between saying they're well-funded and the acknowledgment that they're so poorly run that funding hardly matters.

so how does shipping it's students out of the district solve its dysfunction?

[English]

Pretty miserable comparison. As you are no doubt aware since you cleared a room during the debates, Grutter v. Bollinger had nothing to do with socioeconomic status.

No! Really? I didn't know that.

Seriously, dude. Do you think that the only thing that people were talking about 10 years ago during those debates was race? I talked about socioeconomics within the broader context of those arguments. That is what the word "during" means.

[Detroitnerd]

so how does shipping it's students out of the district solve its dysfunction?

I'm not proposing or cheering for or shouting down anything. I'm pointing out a disconnect in your reasoning. As I said, take it or leave it. This ain't your personal talk show.

[English]

well, again, you'd have a point re busing and magnet schools if each of those schools you mentioned were actually in the same district and subject to the same levels of local tax payer support, but since they aren't...its no wonder you cleared a room because most would correctly assume you had no grasp of the issue.

The problem with your "conversation" is that it has nothing to do with how to fix DPS and everything to with how to blame its inability to educate kids on the bogey man of racist suburbanites.

Bailey, I have nothing left to say to you about this issue because you don't seem to be really interested in discussing what's really at stake here. I have repeatedly stated that this isn't only about race, but about socioeconomics and the conflation of race with class that often happens in the United States. Others have pointed out that Detroit students will not be the only population targeted for this potential program. Still others have pointed out GP's continuing issues with both race and class.

This region has been shaped by racism and prejudices on all sides. It is not a bogeyman, as you well know. Neither is it one-sided. It is encapsulated in a Supreme Court decision that most analysts agree slowed the momentum of Brown v. Board. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if the court had ruled differently in 1974. Perhaps our region would be a bit healthier. We'd still have problems of race and class, but we wouldn't be suffering quite as much. As it stands, people do a better job hating each other's guts in SE Michigan than in many other places around the country. It has held us back, and will continue to do so until and unless people choose to change it.

If you'd like to debate GP Schools without resorting to random insults or setting up straw men, then fine. You think I am stupid; in turn, I think you're engaging in nasty and odious behavior because you're protected by your computer screen. We are going in circles, and we will never agree. What's the point of continuing? You already believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Reasonable people would just ignore me. I certainly couldn't care less what you post about me or this issue. I suggest you take the same adult stance.

[bartock]

No! Really? I didn't know that.

Seriously, dude. Do you think that the only thing that people were talking about 10 years ago during those debates was race? I talked about socioeconomics within the broader context of those arguments. That is what the word "during" means.

OK what Bailey said then.

[bailey]

Bailey, I have nothing left to say to you about this issue because you don't seem to be really interested in discussing what's really at stake here. I have repeatedly stated that this isn't only about race, but about socioeconomics and the conflation of race with class that often happens in the United States. Others have pointed out that Detroit students will not be the only population targeted for this potential program. Still others have pointed out GP's continuing issues with both race and class.

This region has been shaped by racism and prejudices on all sides. It is not a bogeyman, as you well know. Neither is it one-sided. It is encapsulated in a Supreme Court decision that most analysts agree slowed the momentum of Brown v. Board. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if the court had ruled differently in 1974. Perhaps our region would be a bit healthier. We'd still have problems of race and class, but we wouldn't be suffering quite as much. As it stands, people do a better job hating each other's guts in SE Michigan than in many other places around the country. It has held us back, and will continue to do so until and unless people choose to change it.

If you'd like to debate GP Schools without resorting to random insults or setting up straw men, then fine. You think I am stupid; in turn, I think you're engaging in nasty and odious behavior because you're protected by your computer screen. We are going in circles, and we will never agree. What's the point of continuing? You already believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Reasonable people would just ignore me. I certainly couldn't care less what you post about me or this issue. I suggest you take the same adult stance.

If you hadn't called me a racist from the outset...perhaps I'd care what you had to say on the topic.

[English]

OK what Bailey said then.

OK. Then what I said to Bailey also applies to you. I'm very disappointed with you both. Perhaps one day you'll be more reasonable.

[English]

If you hadn't called me a racist from the outset...perhaps I'd care what you had to say on the topic.

Then stop replying to me. Ignore my posts, since you think they're worthless.

Why on earth should you care about what someone online thinks about you? I believe that your stance is indeed based on race and class. I could be wrong about you. I don't really know you, and neither do you really know me. It's a message board.

I don't think your posts are worthless. I respond because there are others who are lurking who feel the same way that you do. No one changes their mind overnight, but dialogue plants seeds.

[SWMAP]

"Here is where we are supposed to reflect on the limits of electronic exchanges, the incivilities they so often breed, especially when the person on the other side of the dialogue is essentially a blank slate, an easy target... for projections and assumptions about class and race.
But reading the exchanges, I found myself thinking about an airline pilot, memorialized in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers," who lets the plane go down rather than insult his more senior co-pilot. There is not much to be said for rudeness or class-baiting; but maybe there is something to be said for a forum where people can speak freely, even bluntly about topics they would normally dance around politely with strangers.
The challenge lies in balancing that free, uncensored honesty with enough civility to break down walls, post by post."

Susan Dominus in the NYT