Grosse Pointe Schools to become school of choice?

[Patrick]

regardless of what you think about it, its going to happen... the once
stately homes in Grosse Pointe are on a collision course to become the new
Boston Edison area....

a shell of its former
glory....

sad....


Will this cause a "flight" from GP? I can def. see GPP turning into an Indian Village in the near future with token abandoned homes and changed demographics. I can't really see the younger folks in GP making a "stand" after the older ones die off or move to FL.

What do you think the Pointes will look like in 2030?

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Take a look what happen to the Clintondale School District!

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/sc...91/school.aspx

In Clintondale High School the black student population was a steady numbers from 1988 to 2001. After the School of Choice bill passed, African Americans who sent their kids to that school has increased. [[ I have seen what happens when the SMART bus RTE 560 Gratiot Ave. from 7:00am to 9:00am. and from 2:00pm. to 4:00pm.has increased ridership. Filled with black kids coming from Detroit.) By 2010 The Black student population in CHS is over 60% while the white student population dropped.

The demographic change in the Clintondale School District has nothing to do with students coming from Detroit. The US Census shows that the black poplution in Macomb Couny quadrape in 10 years from approx. 2.5% in 2000 to approx 10% in 2010. The growth of black students is in direct correlation to population growth of that area. The overall student population has decreased in ten years and decreased. So as the demographics of Macomb County changed so does it school district.

Likewise for Redford and Grosse Pointe.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Haha. Don't tell me, tell the governor you probably voted for.

I voted for him the in the primary. I wanted to insure that Mike [[ " I believe in Kwame") Cox gets nowhere near the Governor's Office.

It was a toss-up between Berneo and Synder. But I do admire our Governor and his non-conformist and non-traditional thinking.

[Patrick]

Let me ask...let's say GP was bordered by a an area dominated by poor white trash hillbilly area, rather than an AA. Would this be an issue? I think it still would be but wanted to see what others say...

[mwilbert]

Assuming this is passed in the legislature, which I would not assume is certain, it doesn't seem to me that it would be that hard to adjust capacity so that the influx of outsiders was pretty limited. People have already talked about the idea that school districts don't hire lots of extra teachers anyway. In addition to that, you can always change the usage of rooms or buildings so that they aren't available for classroom use.

I'm completely in favor of better school districts allowing in some kids from lower-performing districts. But it would be stupid not to recognize the danger both of changing the quality of the school system simply by the addition of new kids with greater challenges, and of changing the support for and composition of the receiving system by driving out some portion of the existing population that can't tolerate the change. Forcing districts to accept outside kids seems like a pretty high-risk strategy to me. If the state wants to do this, I would much prefer that they bribe the districts to do it.

[bailey]

Let me ask...let's say GP was bordered by a an area dominated by poor white trash hillbilly area, rather than an AA. Would this be an issue? I think it still would be but wanted to see what others say...

Yes it would still be an issue. But apparently I'm just a racist in denial for taking that position.

The issue is schools of choice as a whole. Clearly it's a failed experiment from DPS's point of view as it's been a steep decline in enrollment year after year. I'm not convinced it helped enough of the kids that availed themselves of it or the districts that took them in to make it worth while if you listen to those who apparently are on the front lines here. The solution is to fix DPS not to encourage further divestment and hasten its demise.

[Kevgoblue]

Let me ask...let's say GP was bordered by a an area dominated by poor white trash hillbilly area, rather than an AA. Would this be an issue? I think it still would be but wanted to see what others say...

Great question. I'd like to believe the answer to this would be "yes". Its just that adding race to the question [[even implicitly) just serves to fan the flames.

Until a couple years ago there was a fairly large trailer park located around the 13 Mile / Greefield area that happened to make it within the borders of the Birmingham school district. I can remember a few people talking about the residents always wanting to recut the district borders to exclude the trailer park from the district.
Finally a couple years ago the park was bought out and the residents displaced. New housing was put up in that space. The development previously had all been designated Birmingham schools. The new homes were split between Birmingham and Southfield. I seem to remember the Southfield homes list prices starting at $250K. The Birmingham homes started at $350K. Gotta guess that kept the trailer park people out.

[Goose]

The demographic change in the Clintondale School District has nothing to do with students coming from Detroit. The US Census shows that the black poplution in Macomb Couny quadrape in 10 years from approx. 2.5% in 2000 to approx 10% in 2010. The growth of black students is in direct correlation to population growth of that area. The overall student population has decreased in ten years and decreased. So as the demographics of Macomb County changed so does it school district.

Likewise for Redford and Grosse Pointe.

don't say that, people will think that Grosse Pointer's are allowing blacks to move in and attend their schools..... and if the name of the realtor that is selling these homes to these people is exposed... a lynch mob will surly be formed.........

[bailey]

don't say that, people will think that Grosse Pointer's are allowing blacks to move in and attend their schools..... and if the name of the realtor that is selling these homes to these people is exposed... a lynch mob will surly be formed.........

Don't forget the burning crosses.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

. Forcing districts to accept outside kids seems like a pretty high-risk strategy to me. If the state wants to do this, I would much prefer that they bribe the districts to do it.

Wow! Bribing districts with our tax dollar$! INSANE!

[Goose]

Why is School of Choice a problem now? No one complained when Detroit lost its students to Southfield, Hazel Park, Madison Heights, Oak Park, East Pointe, Harper Woods, and other Districts. School of Choice is one of the contributing factors to the financial demise of the Detroit Public Shcools. These districts are compelling Detroit students to cross 8 Mile Rd for the extra funding from the State of Michigan. If School of Choice was not a problem then , then why is it a problem now!

The problem isn't school of choice, the problem is forced participation in the school of choice program...... if a district opts to participate, at the bidding of it's taxpaying citizens, than by all means hoist the school of choice flag.......

so now that the previous optional participants districts have been brought down to mediocrity, its time to focus on other schools to bottom out to the lowest common denominator

the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need... ok marx... we know your political philosophy......

can't wait til the 51% majority decide that they deserve a private school education.....

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Yes it would still be an issue. But apparently I'm just a racist in denial for taking that position.

The issue is schools of choice as a whole. Clearly it's a failed experiment from DPS's point of view as it's been a steep decline in enrollment year after year. I'm not convinced it helped enough of the kids that availed themselves of it or the districts that took them in to make it worth while if you listen to those who apparently are on the front lines here. The solution is to fix DPS not to encourage further divestment and hasten its demise.

Bailey,

That is my point exactly! When Schools of Choice was first enacted no cared that Detroit would lose its students populance and its funding. The some of the same argruments given by Grosse Pointe are some of same argruments given by Detroiter. For example, the GP citizens are complaining that they are paying taxes to support their district. Detroiters had he same argrument and pay taxes are an enormous rate.

I agree that the best option is to creatively invest ways to make Detroit Schools better.

Part of the problem is the greedy districts outlying Detroit that are providing free transportation to Detroit students to come to their District. These Districts love School of Choice and their representatives will vote to maintain it.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

The problem isn't school of choice, the problem is forced participation in the school of choice program...... if a district opts to participate, at the bidding of it's taxpaying citizens, than by all means hoist the school of choice flag.......

so now that the previous optional participants districts have been brought down to mediocrity, its time to focus on other schools to bottom out to the lowest common denominator

the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need... ok marx... we know your political philosophy......

can't wait til the 51% majority decide that they deserve a private school education.....

The fact is that regardless whether it Detroit or any other District, with School of Choice, one District will suffer loss, while one District will gain.

If my memory serves me well, DPS advocated a School of Choice program by which if a District goes Schools of Choice of choice the adjacent School Disctricts must concur.

[Kevgoblue]

The issue is schools of choice as a whole. Clearly it's a failed experiment from DPS's point of view as it's been a steep decline in enrollment year after year. I'm not convinced it helped enough of the kids that availed themselves of it or the districts that took them in to make it worth while if you listen to those who apparently are on the front lines here. The solution is to fix DPS not to encourage further divestment and hasten its demise.

The issue is not school of choice as a whole. I really doubt there would be much resistance if Troy opened it's borders to Bloomfield Hills. Likewise Northville and Novi. The issue is schools having to open their doors to kids from a different socioeconomic class.

Your question of how do you fix DPS? Detroit, unfortunately, has been at the recieving end of one of the larger cases of disinvestment in history. Over the past 50 years most of the industry has left. So have most of the upper and middle class residents. The state has spent very little investing in infrastructure or clearing brownfields. The result of that is a population which is disproportionately poor and undereducated. Disproportionately renters and not owners. All of which are major predictors of kids poor school performance. And the cycle becomes self perpetuating.

On the other hand you also have lots of people who will claim no ownership in the decline of the city. People who moved to certain areas specifically to get their kids into high performing districts. People who paid a premium on homes and tax rates to ensure that. It's a pretty hard sell at this point to ask them to have their schools open their doors to the masses. Sounds like another one of the many issues we have which could have benefitted from some long term regional planning.

[Patrick]

Pretty soon there won't be a Detroit Public School system...I can see the DPS dropping of the face of the earth by 2017 so others will have to pick up the pieces, even if that means ooutside districts.

[mwilbert]

Wow! Bribing districts with our tax dollar$! INSANE!

Assuming you aren't being sarcastic, this is a traditional approach to encouraging local governments to do things. The state bribes districts [[like Detroit) to spend more on their schools, by using level of effort in the formula for school aid. If the state wants to encourage districts to accept students from other districts, it should make it worth their while. It would be much less contentious than mandating it, and it would provide a way to be fair to districts that spend more per pupil.

[313WX]

But this is the same mentality of people who left Detroit, and took their considerable resources with them, leaving the community poorer, with less revenue, and basically caused a "bust" in home values. And then, 10 years later, they said that "those people" were responsible for destroying their former neighborhoods, right? How long are we doomed to this cycle of flight and blame?

You gotta love that irony around here.

Can't win for losing.

[English]

This thread is one of the most entertaining I've read on DYes for a long time.

I remember clearing a room 10 years ago during the Grutter v. Bollinger debates by stating that we ought to enforce school desegregation by busing kids from Northville and Grosse Pointe to Cass Tech, and kids from Cass Tech out to the best suburbs. It isn't as if upper middle class kids [[of ALL races, for those in the cheap seats who don't get that there are rich blacks & poor whites) are harmed by city living or an urban magnet school education, as every other blooming city in this country has discovered. It's just our backwards region that will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Anyway. Even if this never happens, I'm just glad that the conversations are taking place.

[midwesthostage]

Having paged through all these posts I am a bit disgusted by all those so against schools of choice; for one thing, because the whole system of school funding as it now stands, SUCKS. Just because a kid is poor, they shouldn't have access to as good an education as others?And I say this coming from the "have" side, not the "have not"; that is to say having the benefit of a Utica schools education, which I appreciate, but HATED growing up in the burbs. And while I don't resent rich people in general I do resent those who want to perfect their tiny corner of the world, the rest of be damned. What can't this be a regional effort? Why all the hate and backbiting? It's really easy to sit there and say that DPS needs to be fixed, but what about the kids who need a good education NOW, who are falling through the cracks RIGHT NOW...and what are the facts on schools of choice anyway? If some districts are doing so well, why NOT take on some disadvantaged students? It could be seen as an opportunity to prove how successful they really are. How small, how selfish and lacking compassion those sound who would so quickly oppose expanding schools of choice.

[East Detroit]

I guess what's good for the goose ain't good for the gander. Tough shit, GP, it is a State education.

We should have one DPS, including all of Metro Detroit. Then each child would have an equal chance.

Except what I am reading is that some people don't want equality... they want education for children based on how rich or poor the parents are. They want to pile on the millages for the rich kids and kick the poor kids to the curb. I say no local millages. If you have extra money, give it to the State to distribute for the State education.

Is it socialist to protect and look out for the minority and raise up our weakest? Then I suppose the Constitution of the United States is a socialist document.

[mwilbert]

Is it socialist to protect and look out for the minority and raise up our weakest? Then I suppose the Constitution of the United States is a socialist document.

I'm no big fan of the Constitution, but what part of the Constitution do you think talks about "look[ing] out for the minority and rais[ing] up our weakest"?

[rjk]

Having paged through all these posts I am a bit disgusted by all those so against schools of choice; for one thing, because the whole system of school funding as it now stands, SUCKS. Just because a kid is poor, they shouldn't have access to as good an education as others?And I say this coming from the "have" side, not the "have not"; that is to say having the benefit of a Utica schools education, which I appreciate, but HATED growing up in the burbs. And while I don't resent rich people in general I do resent those who want to perfect their tiny corner of the world, the rest of be damned. What can't this be a regional effort? Why all the hate and backbiting? It's really easy to sit there and say that DPS needs to be fixed, but what about the kids who need a good education NOW, who are falling through the cracks RIGHT NOW...and what are the facts on schools of choice anyway? If some districts are doing so well, why NOT take on some disadvantaged students? It could be seen as an opportunity to prove how successful they really are. How small, how selfish and lacking compassion those sound who would so quickly oppose expanding schools of choice.

Since GP will be required to use their tax dollars to educate DPS kids will they also have to provide substitute parents to show up for parent teacher meetings? We've all heard/read about this problem from Kym Worthy to teachers on this message board pointing out this problem. I'll take a DPS student who has parents who are interested and engaged in their childs education over a GP student whose parents don't care. Blaming the failure of DPS on the uneven funding is a copout.

[bartock]

I guess what's good for the goose ain't good for the gander. Tough shit, GP, it is a State education.

We should have one DPS, including all of Metro Detroit. Then each child would have an equal chance.

Except what I am reading is that some people don't want equality... they want education for children based on how rich or poor the parents are. They want to pile on the millages for the rich kids and kick the poor kids to the curb. I say no local millages. If you have extra money, give it to the State to distribute for the State education.

Is it socialist to protect and look out for the minority and raise up our weakest? Then I suppose the Constitution of the United States is a socialist document.

Where do you think a good number of those tens of thousands of DPS students gone over the past five years? Many into districts that have CHOSEN to participate in schools of choice. There are many options right now...and the really poor kids that don't have transportation are not going to those schools anyway. What is next, funding for private transport for every kid who wants to go to school 10 miles away?

Do all the good liberal people here that so often paint things with a partisan brush realize that supporting schools of choice is supporting a Republican initiative?

...and why are so many making this out to be school of choice versus not school of choice? It is not an all or nothing affair. It is about whether school of choice should be MANDATED versus being voted on by the taxpaying folks of a specific district.

The bagging on Grosse Pointe is ridiculous. It is probably among the most diverse school districts in the state.

Hey, next let's abolish private schools! Better yet, for every dollar a family pays for their children to go to private school, they have to pay two dollars in a private school tax on top of the school taxes they are already paying. That'll learn 'em!

...and the idea of not allowing taxpayers to vote on millage increases for their schools [[and those millage increases are limited in what they can go towards) and redistributing MORE wealth back to the state is crazy. You don't improve your educational system by bringing down the top. You do it by bringing up the bottom.

[bartock]

This thread is one of the most entertaining I've read on DYes for a long time.

I remember clearing a room 10 years ago during the Grutter v. Bollinger debates by stating that we ought to enforce school desegregation by busing kids from Northville and Grosse Pointe to Cass Tech, and kids from Cass Tech out to the best suburbs. It isn't as if upper middle class kids [[of ALL races, for those in the cheap seats who don't get that there are rich blacks & poor whites) are harmed by city living or an urban magnet school education, as every other blooming city in this country has discovered. It's just our backwards region that will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Anyway. Even if this never happens, I'm just glad that the conversations are taking place.

Pretty miserable comparison. As you are no doubt aware since you cleared a room during the debates, Grutter v. Bollinger had nothing to do with socioeconomic status.

[bailey]

This thread is one of the most entertaining I've read on DYes for a long time.

I remember clearing a room 10 years ago during the Grutter v. Bollinger debates by stating that we ought to enforce school desegregation by busing kids from Northville and Grosse Pointe to Cass Tech, and kids from Cass Tech out to the best suburbs. It isn't as if upper middle class kids [[of ALL races, for those in the cheap seats who don't get that there are rich blacks & poor whites) are harmed by city living or an urban magnet school education, as every other blooming city in this country has discovered. It's just our backwards region that will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Anyway. Even if this never happens, I'm just glad that the conversations are taking place.

well, again, you'd have a point re busing and magnet schools if each of those schools you mentioned were actually in the same district and subject to the same levels of local tax payer support, but since they aren't...its no wonder you cleared a room because most would correctly assume you had no grasp of the issue.

The problem with your "conversation" is that it has nothing to do with how to fix DPS and everything to with how to blame its inability to educate kids on the bogey man of racist suburbanites.