Mich. House OKs smoking ban, but not in casinos

**Johnnny5** · May-27-09, 10:44 AM

There is one upside to these anti smoking proposals for both smokers and non smokers. I can not stand being in a nearly windowless bar on a warm sunny day, if these laws are passed there is going to be a huge increase in the number of bars offering outdoor seating! I've already noticed a big increase this Spring and this pending legislation will undoubtedly speed up the trend.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-27-09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by GREENTROIT

ghettopalmetto...

Why can't you see how this would protect some employees? It is proven that secondhand smoke has very adverse health effects. Your assumption that every bar/restaurant employee in the state is a smoker is obviously wrong. So passing this bill would protect thousands and thousands of non-smoking restaurant employees that are currently subjected to secondhand smoke. How does this not protect employees in the workplace?

In my experience, the majority of employees in the bar and restaurant industry smoke. Who are you protecting?

Have you thought about why they're trying to protect "employees" and not the "public"?

Sorry. I refuse to believe that we're all children and are incapable of making our own decisions when it comes to the businesses at which we work and/or spend money.

And I REALLY don't appreciate being outright LIED to by government.

**Gistok** · May-27-09, 11:10 AM

Something tells me that the law will be tested in court, not against the smoking ban, but against the casinos being allowed to continue to allow smoking, while other establishments are not. The law could likely get struck down for making these exemptions, and a new law with a TOTAL ban would likely need to be implemented.

Blarf · May-27-09, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

We don't allow restaurants to serve contaminated food or bars to serve poisoned drinks.

Bars don't serve alcohol?

Blarf · May-27-09, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Something tells me that the law will be tested in court, not against the smoking ban, but against the casinos being allowed to continue to allow smoking, while other establishments are not. The law could likely get struck down for making these exemptions, and a new law with a TOTAL ban would likely need to be implemented.

What I get out of this is that if your business makes enough money, public health doesn't matter.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-27-09, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Blarf

What I get out of this is that if your business makes enough money, public health doesn't matter.

If this bill is intended to "protect employees", then why does a law need to be passed? Couldn't MiOSHA establish a regulation?

I'm sure glad the Michigan Legislature is attacking the big problems plaguing the state.

**oldredfordette** · May-27-09, 01:26 PM

Second hand smoke and service workers:
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...ors.asp?ID=798

If they can ban smoking in pubs in Ireland and France,for god's sake, they can do it here.

For me, I don't go places that have heavy smoking anymore. I'm sorry to say. I went to the Magic Bag in March to see a band I love, and ended up missing three days of work - my asthma went nuts. Until a smoking ban goes into effect, I'm avoiding those shows and venues. Michigan business must choose which side they're on.

As far as the casinos go, I don't understand why they're getting a pass, however I was impressed by the air cleaners at the MGM Grand [[the only casino I've been in). I was in the old one once and had to leave, the new one seems state of the art. Which I'm sure is cost prohibitive for more area pubs.

**wolverine** · May-27-09, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I'm no mechanical engineer, but there is such a thing as forced-air ventilation.

Yes, please don't go down that road. Despite the presence of even the best ventilation, you still can't maintain optimum air quality with smokers in the room. In fact buildings with LEED certification require that smokers be 25 feet away from the building, UNLESS a particular room just for smokers is constructed with negative pressure and ventilated to the outside. It's an extremely easy credit to get just because all the owner has to do is post signs.

Here's what I don't know. Sometimes these bans permit smoking rooms in bars as long as they are closed and separately ventilated. I have yet to witness this, but maybe someone has.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-27-09, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Yes, please don't go down that road. Despite the presence of even the best ventilation, you still can't maintain optimum air quality with smokers in the room. In fact buildings with LEED certification require that smokers be 25 feet away from the building, UNLESS a particular room just for smokers is constructed with negative pressure and ventilated to the outside.

LEED has absolutely nothing to do with ventilation [[cfm) required by building codes.

ORF, I'm empathetic to your asthma. If France and Ireland want to ban smoking to improve public health, I think that's their prerogative as those countries provide publicly-funded health care to their citizens. The language in this bill--and EVERY smoking ban passed in the U.S.--has nothing to do with public health.

This is the State of Michigan, overriding traditional local government controls, to dictate businesses to ban an otherwise- legal activity. Sorry. I believe in laws that preserve rights, not make universal restrictions.

We might as well also make laws that do not permit people to eat candy after it falls on the floor.

**wolverine** · May-27-09, 01:42 PM

No it isn't. But the point was it's a guideline that at least recognizes mechanically ventilated spaces can not effectively maintain indoor quality for everyone when smokers are in the room. Additionally LEED certification is a growing trend that is a disadvantage to smokers.

**Johnlodge** · May-27-09, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Second hand smoke and service workers:
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...ors.asp?ID=798

If they can ban smoking in pubs in Ireland and France,for god's sake, they can do it here.

For me, I don't go places that have heavy smoking anymore. I'm sorry to say. I went to the Magic Bag in March to see a band I love, and ended up missing three days of work - my asthma went nuts. Until a smoking ban goes into effect, I'm avoiding those shows and venues. Michigan business must choose which side they're on.

Why be sorry? THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD WORK. Not through government intervention, but by you voting with your wallet.

And did you stop going to Bart's? Because that place is full of smoke.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-27-09, 02:12 PM

This is from the link that Oldredfordette posted:

Hospitality workers and musicians breathe in more secondhand smoke than any other type of worker. Waiters/waitresses show the highest levels of cotinine – a biological marker of secondhand smoke exposure – compared to all other workers. This translates to a lifetime risk of dying from heart disease of 1 in 100 and of dying from lung cancer of 1 in 1000.

This has to stop.

Oh no. A whole 1% risk of dying from heart disease, and a 0.1% risk of dying from lung cancer due to second-hand smoke FOR RESTAURANT EMPLOYEES! Let's get a dozen Krispy Kremes and panic!

Now, who thinks those are good odds? At least be intellectually honest and say that you just don't like the smell.

**ghein** · May-27-09, 02:17 PM

If this passes, maybe I'll be able to end my boycott of the Blind Pig in Ann Arbor. Smokiest venue ever.

Fact of the matter is, the government absolutely has the right to dictate what an owner does in their private business. You can't serve alcohol without a liquor license. You can't have strippers or a topless waitstaff unless you run it by the zoning commission. You may not agree with their control of alcohol, sex, tobacco, etc. in public establishments, but good luck getting a court to agree with you.

**Johnlodge** · May-27-09, 02:23 PM

I should add, though, despite my argument against this bill...

Quit paying the government and tobacco companies to kill you! It will be one of the best things you ever do, and save a bunch of money you can use to go on vacation somewhere nice.

**pffft** · May-27-09, 02:28 PM

I can't believe some smokers actually still think it's just a "preference," as in someone "doesn't like" the smell of smoke.

I happen to like the smell of smoke. It reminds me of good times, seeing friends in bars, seeing good music. But I have a severe allergy to nicotine, and like ORF I am sick for days after a show at the Magic Bag, so I stopped going. When they allowed smoking in my workplace, I used to have bronchitis for at least a month every winter.

The Fillmore banned smoking, and it is a delight to go there again to see music, not because of the smell, but because I don't have to miss work after going there.

**Gistok** · May-27-09, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by pffft

The Fillmore banned smoking, and it is a delight to go there again to see music, not because of the smell, but because I don't have to miss work after going there.

Thanks for that info pffft!

I used to remember when the Preservation Wayne downtown movie palace tours always took place on the Saturday in August that was always the day after the former Fash Bash at the State Theatre.

The State/Filmore reeked to high heaven the next day of cigarette smoke and stale beer. Maybe now they can finally clean and restore the Auditorium and Grand Foyer surfaces of the stain of nicotine and smoke [[like they did the Rotunda Lobby and outer Storm Lobby).

When they restored the Fox back in 1988, they remove 12 tons of nicotine and smoke soot off the ornate plasterwork wall and ceiling surfaces.

**rondinjp** · May-27-09, 03:20 PM

Seriously, 37 states already have some sort of ban. Even the tobacco capital North Carolina enacted a ban. Hell, I'll take it even further. France, Ireland, and Italy all have country wide bans.

If they can enact a ban were Marbloro is HQ, why can't Michigan.

Let's just move on from this debate, it's a dead issue. If the State legislation doesn't move and enact some type of ban it will be put to a state wide vote. The State legislation doesn't want this b/c they now the smokers are way in the minority and a total ban would pass if put to a vote.

Sorry smokers, that's the truth.

**R8RBOB** · May-27-09, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by rondinjp

Seriously, 37 states already have some sort of ban.

Can we be number 38?

As a ex-smoker who smoked for 17yrs, I have to say if Michigan does pass a ban everyone will get used to it. I admit, it will be odd to go to a bar, drink a beer then have to go outside to smoke. Nine years ago, I had to experience that when I moved to California and I was bummed that I couldn't enjoy that square with that Heineken but I got used to it because it was the law and all the girls were outside smoking.

**jjw** · May-27-09, 04:48 PM

The only part I don't get is the partial banning. Maybe I am naive or don't read the news that often but I haven't heard of that one before. It was passed in Maryland a few years ago and passed for ALL indoor places--not some. The bars and clubs still have smoking in many of their outdoor areas that they have created since the ban went into affect. But the casinos get an exception? Casino workers aren't protected by this law? Then the law is boushit.
By the way, I don't care either way. I never really cared for cigarette smoke but it didn't bother me. I love the smell of a cigar or a pipe or wacky tabacky.

DetroitDad · May-27-09, 05:11 PM

What about hookah and smoking lounges [[opened with smokers as the only or primary customers in mind) who also serve food and drink? Those places would choose to give the old Forget You to non-smokers. Now those places can no longer exist.

Don't go to the establishment if you don't like it. If you have asthma or some other condition, then go complain to the ADA that the establishment isn't making reasonable accommodations for your disability. This new law is just not necessary. Laws should only be made when they are absolutely necessary, and with everyone in mind, not just the majority.

~Non-Smoker

**BasementBeat** · May-27-09, 05:15 PM

Its a start...but the smoking in casinos is the highest I've ever seen. I cannot step into one for 5 minutes without coming out smelling like an ashtray.

**Pam** · May-27-09, 05:17 PM

Why be sorry? THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD WORK

She's sorry because she is missing concerts she might want to see. Why should enjoying music come with a risk to her health?

**Johnlodge** · May-27-09, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

She's sorry because she is missing concerts she might want to see. Why should enjoying music come with a risk to her health?

She has the choice to not take that risk. Also, the bands have the choice to play a different venue, and the owners have a choice to make their venues attractive to her and those bands who might make such a choice in order to provide a product that may cater to a unserved demographic.

I don't want to breathe smoke either. I know I can go to the State Theater [[hee) or Pine Knob [[hee hee) and they are smoke free. Even though Pine Knob is an open ampitheater! Their choice.

DetroitDad · May-27-09, 05:35 PM

So, if the health risks for non-smokers are eliminated, we can then lower the sin/health tax on cigarettes right? Health costs were a primary argument to raising those recently, weren't they?

~Non-Smoker

**Johnlodge** · May-27-09, 05:46 PM

If a bunch of smokers want to go to Smokey Smoker's Smoke House and Grille and smoke, what gives you the right to tell them they can't do that, and he can't even run such a business? It's not illegal to smoke. So why is it illegal to have a business where people can smoke inside? Just because you want to go to Smokey Smoker's and enjoy the Grille without the Smoke doesn't give you the right to make him change his policies. Why demand to be able to give business to a guy who cares so little about your well being? Just go somewhere else and give your money to someone who does! Eventually Smokey Smoker will get the hint and change his policies on his own.