A legal Food truck: All it took was a year and 60 trips to city hall

[noise]

Not likely, since the brick & mortar restaurant has to carry a higher tax burden.

In either case, they're relying on the consumer. If they're unable to provide a product that is desired by potential customers, they go out of business. If the food truck takes business away from the brick & mortar, the consumer has voted with where they choose to spend their money.

[Fnemecek]

And in either case, the brick & mortar carries a higher tax burden, which is a de facto subsidy of the an industry that creates less jobs.

If two entities are competing, why should government subside either of them, let alone the one that creates the fewest jobs?

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, except that downtown office workers on their lunch break is the bread and butter of conventional restaurants. You know, the people who are paying all of those taxes and providing all of those jobs.

And if those places can't stomach a little competition for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, they have a shit business plan to begin with. A bricks-and-mortar restaurant needs to be taking money, at a minimum, 10 hours a day, 6 days a week to do well. Let's cry a river because a steak house will have to "compete" with a burrito cart for 20% of its operating hours. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Now, you tell us: why should a food truck have to pay taxes on par with a bricks-and-mortar business when the truck doesn't occupy a taxable property???

Sorry. If a restaurant fails because of taxes or a stupid burrito cart, it was a shit restaurant. Plain and simple. I'm not understanding your theory of a centralized planned food-service economy.

Look for my new thread, where I deem it wholly unfair that a food truck can't get away with serving $30 entrees and $8 drinks. How are the poor widdle food trucks supposed to survive when they're forced to sell meals for a paltry $5-6 a pop?

[jsmyers]

I don't agree with the idea that the restaurant is where the property tax burden sits.

It sits with the landowner. Only in the case that a restaurateur owns its building and land, and does nothing else on the property, then the burden is on the restaurant. Got apartments, condos, or offices upstairs? Then the taxes are shared pretty broadly.

Those taxes are due whether or not a somebody is occupying the space.

I think that archaic zoning, transportation policies [[I'm sure of these), and property tax collection procedures [[only speculating) are more blight inducing than street vendor deregulation.

[EL Jimbo]

And in either case, the brick & mortar carries a higher tax burden, which is a de facto subsidy of the an industry that creates less jobs.

If two entities are competing, why should government subside either of them, let alone the one that creates the fewest jobs?

I'm sorry, but any business that's profit margins are so tight that the tax rate is determining whether they sink or swim is a poorly run business. If a brick and mortar restaurant can't compete with a truck because of the tax rate, they deserve to go under. Either run your business more efficiently or provide a better product. Plan and simple.

Who knows. Maybe that successful truck operation might decide to open up in the same location that the poorly run brick and mortar place was at?

[Hans64]

I am from the Detroit area and live in Portland now. Portland has between 200-400 food trucks [[number varies seasonally) in various pods around the city. For $3-$6 you can sample foods including Mexican, Peruvian, Cuban, Indian, German, Belgian, Thai, Venezulian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, on and on it goes. The food quality is generally very high [[as it is throughout Portland in general). Some of the trucks are tied to restaurants, other trucks branch out into full service restaurants themselves based on their success. All of these places have CROWDS of people at all hours: some pods cater to the downtown lunch crowd, some to late night crowds, etc. No restaurants have closed because they could not compete--going to a cart and going to a restaurant are apples and oranges. Sorry folks--if you think entrepreneurship, increased foot traffic and positive street life, and taxes paid to the city vis a vis food carts are something to ban or avoid then Detroit really is not going to go anywhere from what it is today.

[GUSHI]

Not likely, since the brick & mortar restaurant has to carry a higher tax burden.

I agree w u w/ the tax burden, but the welcomed foot traffic, may help other business in the area. Wether that be a party store, grocery store, pharamcy, etc... Alot of restaurants are strugging, I went to Roma Cafe 2 saturdays ago w/ my wife for lunch and it was dead. The food was fine, but I wouldn't go down there just to eat at Roma Cafe again. My wife is a smart shopper and she buy Groupons all the time. Usually its restaurants on those types of sites.[[Used one for Whitney, Opus 1, Roma cafe.)

[noise]

And in either case, the brick & mortar carries a higher tax burden, which is a de facto subsidy of the an industry that creates less jobs.

If two entities are competing, why should government subside either of them, let alone the one that creates the fewest jobs?

You seem very interested in things being "fair", but I don't particularly view anything in the world in those terms. There are consequences for every decision. They made the choice to open a brick & mortar instead of a food truck. If you can't survive, you can blame nobody but yourself.

I'm not particularly fond of a flat tax, either.

Ultimately, I'm more concerned with the consumer in this particular situation. We can agree to disagree.

[Fnemecek]

And if those places can't stomach a little competition for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, they have a shit business plan to begin with.

Yeah, except that's when the business is done. People tend to eat meals around a somewhat standardized schedule. Breakfast in the early morning, lunch around noon, and dinner in the evening. That 3 hour window takes up the bulk of the business opportunities while failing to carry the same tax burden or provide an equivalent number of jobs.

Now, you tell us: why should a food truck have to pay taxes on par with a bricks-and-mortar business when the truck doesn't occupy a taxable property???

Fairness.

Now, you tell us: Why should we subsidize one business model over another? Moreover, why should we subsidize a business model that creates fewer jobs at the expense of the one that creates more?

I'm not understanding your theory of a centralized planned food-service economy.

Let me get this straight. I advocate treating two business models the same. You advocate giving one a subsidy at the expense of another.

And I'm the one with a "theory of a centralized planned food-service economy"???

[GUSHI]

The restaurants that are brick and motar, should have a food truck, w/ a limited menu available on it. Ex roma cafe shpuld have a truck that serves paninis for example, for 3 hours in a busier part of downtown. It would help the bottom line. The cost arent that much for a food truck.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, except that's when the business is done. People tend to eat meals around a somewhat standardized schedule. Breakfast in the early morning, lunch around noon, and dinner in the evening. That 3 hour window takes up the bulk of the business opportunities while failing to carry the same tax burden or provide an equivalent number of jobs.

So not only do we have to sit down at a restaurant if we want to eat lunch, we have to eat WHEN you tell us to as well? Boy, I hope I get hungry quick, because the crappy deli that's only open from 11-2 Monday through Friday is about to close!

Yes, you're right. Detroit is only big enough to support five eateries. Let's put a moratorium on new restaurant construction, then, if we're going to use your reasoning.

Show me ONE documented case where a restaurant has EVER gone out of business due to competition from a food truck.

Fairness.

Now, you tell us: Why should we subsidize one business model over another? Moreover, why should we subsidize a business model that creates fewer jobs at the expense of the one that creates more?



Let me get this straight. I advocate treating two business models the same. You advocate giving one a subsidy at the expense of another.

And I'm the one with a "theory of a centralized planned food-service economy"???

What subsidy for food trucks? I think you're clinging to a straw man here. Pray tell, what taxes would you impose on food trucks that they don't already pay? Property tax? Special Discriminatory I Hate Food Trucks Tax? My Friends Own Restaurants Tax?

You're really just making shit up at this point. If you want to see a subsidized restaurant operation...In Poland, they have a concept known as a "milk bar" [[bar mleczny) that was begun in the 1960s. Milk bars are government-subsidized cafeterias, which were opened because employees of small companies without canteens needed somewhere to eat lunch. Most of them have closed in the market economy of the past 20 years, but most cities still have at least one, which is still directly subsidized by the government--you can get a meal for $2-3. Yet, privately-run restaurants [[and kebab stands and hamburger carts!) are miraculously able to make money too. The HORRORS!

[GUSHI]

There is a shit load of hot dog carts in NYC and a shit load of restaurnts, they can co-exist.

[donpablo]

Iit was around 5 to 7 years ago i saw taco trucks getting more numerous and popular in SW Detroit. Over the past 10 years i've seen dozens of brick and morter Mexican restaurants and Taquerias open up. Guess what? They are all still there. Isn't it great?!

[Hans64]

as I said food carts and restaurants are apples and oranges. No one thinks/says "Hey, let's go out for a nice dinner and bottle of wine at XYZ--no, on second thought let's go get a burrito from that cart!"

[Enduro]

I can do better, trucks have become real businesses. Ya know Good Girls Crepes started as little more than a food truck sized hole in the wall, literally, a hole in the wall? They upgraded as their business grew.

The customer is always right. I'm not looking for a full blown restaurant, a tip, crappy fries with everything and a 10 dollar salad or sandwich and I don't want to go to McDonald's. I'll still go to restaurants when I want a drink and to sit down and enjoy myself but for lunch I want options or else I'm packing it myself. Zero economic activity. I have a feeling there are tons of others like me. Cool food trucks I try on my travels are another reason I shake my head when I come home.

This is a hot new trend that Detroit is missing out on. "Hey, I know this awesome little truck on Griswold". How nice would it be to have some street vendors out on the streets late at night, offering something to sop up the night's sins and keeping an eye on what's going on around him. There's a lot of Quicken employees who work long hours coming, let's accommodate them so they can get a quick bite and go right back to work before they discover the wonder of Hot Pockets.

I swear, this city is laughable sometimes. THEY WANT TO GIVE THE CITY TAX DOLLARS. Take it.

[Fnemecek]

What subsidy for food trucks?

Brick and mortar operations pay property taxes; trucks don't. The absence of a level of taxation on one business model that doesn't exist on its competitors is a de facto subsidy.

But, you know, I'm the guy who is just making things up and clinging to my straw man

[Fnemecek]

I can do better, trucks have become real businesses. Ya know Good Girls Crepes started as little more than a food truck sized hole in the wall, literally, a hole in the wall? They upgraded as their business grew.

They weren't a food truck. They were a small brick and mortar operation, which had property taxes assessed against it, that grew into a larger one.

[Detroitkid]

Good to see so many people see competition as a good thing and are defending it.

Someone was asking about where food trucks can operate. The food trucks are not allowed to operate on any public property hence their having to pay to park in parking lots. So there is no special treatment for them.

from what I saw today, the place was packed and eventually sold out of everything at about 1:15.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ig-opening-day

[ghettopalmetto]

Brick and mortar operations pay property taxes; trucks don't. The absence of a level of taxation on one business model that doesn't exist on its competitors is a de facto subsidy.

Yeah, they don't occupy property either.

But, you know, property taxes are all that matter, because we like to selectively ignore that food trucks pay income and sales taxes.

When do I get to piss and moan that restaurants don't pay gasoline taxes? Because that would make about as much sense as your desire to discriminatorily tax food trucks out of existence. Subsidy Subsidy Subsidy!

[Hans64]

Brick and mortar operations pay property taxes; trucks don't. The absence of a level of taxation on one business model that doesn't exist on its competitors is a de facto subsidy.

But, you know, I'm the guy who is just making things up and clinging to my straw man

All true if you can't seperate out the fact they aren't true competitors. Carts and restaurants are not interchangeable. They are totally different experiences. Sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other. Portland has never had so many food carts and restaurants still keep opening like crazy. Without exception I can say that any restaurant that closed here in the past two years did so due to misguided concept, poor location, service, and food quality [[or all three)--NOT due to unfair competition from food carts.

[Fnemecek]

Good to see so many people see competition as a good thing and are defending it.

Yes, subsidizing one business model over another is suddenly popular.

God help us.

[old guy]

I am from the Detroit area and live in Portland now. Portland has between 200-400 food trucks [[number varies seasonally) in various pods around the city. For $3-$6 you can sample foods including Mexican, Peruvian, Cuban, Indian, German, Belgian, Thai, Venezulian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, on and on it goes. The food quality is generally very high [[as it is throughout Portland in general). Some of the trucks are tied to restaurants, other trucks branch out into full service restaurants themselves based on their success. All of these places have CROWDS of people at all hours: some pods cater to the downtown lunch crowd, some to late night crowds, etc. No restaurants have closed because they could not compete--going to a cart and going to a restaurant are apples and oranges. Sorry folks--if you think entrepreneurship, increased foot traffic and positive street life, and taxes paid to the city vis a vis food carts are something to ban or avoid then Detroit really is not going to go anywhere from what it is today.

I have to agree with Hans. Every city I've been to with food trucks and carts seem to be more vibrant. There's also a positive with a possibility of less street crime when you have more people on the streets eating and shopping. When I travel to a city I usually look for areas that have food trucks online before I visit. I also look for good restaurants too. Denver comes to mind with great street food.

[Fnemecek]

Yeah, they don't occupy property either.

But, you know, property taxes are all that matter, because we like to selectively ignore that food trucks pay income and sales taxes.

Which brick and mortar also pay.

When do I get to piss and moan that restaurants don't pay gasoline taxes? Because that would make about as much sense as your desire to discriminatorily tax food trucks out of existence.

#1. I think you just did piss and moan about it.

#2. Gas taxes are paid to the state and federal government.

#3. Gas taxes are also no where near what property taxes are.

#4. How is treating all businesses the same "discriminatory"? Words have actual meanings, you know.

[Enduro]

Fnemecek, I usually respect your posts and blog but many trucks do become brick and mortar, I referenced Good Girls because Detroit is so backwards I can't think of any local examples. This is something that people, young people want. They want more options, they want something fast that isn't fast food. People will see a lack of trucks as another reason Detroit is a dinosaur that will never catch up to the times and isn't worth planting roots in. Am I overselling the trucks? Absolutely but it IS another thing other cities have, that we don't. They are willing to pay taxes. They don't compete directly with restaurants, they compete with Slim Jims, brown bags and 99 cent menus. This is additional revenue. Take it.

Maybe we should protect GM and Ford and nix the light rail system too. Oh, wait.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes, subsidizing one business model over another is suddenly popular.

God help us.

You keep calling this a "subsidy". You can't levy a property tax on a person or business who doesn't own property, and you'd get your ass sued if you tried. So where's the subsidy? It would be an uneven playing field if you *did* levy property taxes on food trucks.

It's not as if these food truck operators would otherwise be shelling out half a million bucks in capital costs to sling tacos out of a window, but for the property taxes. That's the comprehension problem you're having. It's not either food truck/or restaurant--for the food truck operators, it's food truck or nothing.

Christ on Toast.