Border City Crime: Ferndale Phramacy Robbed Twice - Closing

[mwilbert]

I would like to see some evidence that crime in Ferndale is any worse than it has been in the last 30 years. I'm not saying it isn't, but that isn't my impression. It appears to me that Ferndale's biggest problem is the regional economy which has reduced property values and provoked an excessive level of foreclosures.

Independent drug stores are going out of business everywhere, and I don't see any reason to think that one was viable. There is a CVS about a block from there.

[Bham1982]

Actually someone pointed out the suspects are from Oak Park, which certainly is not Detroit.

Please show a source that shows the suspects are from Oak Park. This runs counter to the news reports, which said they were from Detroit, and that they all fled to and hid in Detroit.

And that isn't even the point. Obviously 100% of Ferndale crime isn't going to be from Detroit. There will be folks from Highland Park, Oak Park, Royal Oak Township and other nearby communities with higher-than-average crime. Heck, there will be some criminals from Bloomfield and Grosse Pointe, I'm sure.

The point is that most crime originates to the south, and fleeing suspects know to head south.

[Bham1982]

I would like to see some evidence that crime in Ferndale is any worse than it has been in the last 30 years.

I don't know if crime is better or worse than in the past, but there have certainly been many high-profile violent incidents in recent months.

I remember a dollar-store owner who was shot to death in recent months. There were at least two gun incidents in the public schools. There was an incident where Ferndale police shot and killed a fleeing driver in sketchy circumstances.

Yes, these could be coincidental, but once there's a pattern [[or, at the minimum, folks perceive a pattern), then damage may be done.

[ferntruth]

I'd look at Median Home prices and household incomes.

Ferndale Median Home Price: $60,000
Ferndale Median Household Income: $45,629

Sherwood Forest Median Home Price: $120,000
Sherwood Forest Median Household Income: $110,745

Palmer Woods Median Home Price: $225,000
Palmer Woods Median Household Income: $110,745

No Data on Green Acres, but I'm guessing the Median Home prices is somewhere between Sherwood's and Ferndale's.

Plus, Sherwood Forest and Plamer Woods both have their own private security forces, and strong neighborhood associations. I don't know about Green Acres.

So actually, I would assume Ferndale DOES rely on Detroit for business. I'm sure many of these wealthy residents of Detroit go to Ferndale and similar communities to do much of their shopping.

Thank you for the information.
I never claimed that Ferndale doesn't pull in shoppers from Detroit.
I don't necessarily think that having their own security forces is indicative of anything specific about income. Maybe the residents simply feel they need more protection that DPD can provide?
I choose to think that Ferndale would not need additional security simply because the Ferndale PD functions as it should.

Given that the housing in Palmer Woods, et al is quite nice, I still prefer Ferndale [[when its not being invaded and terrorized by neighboring communities that is).

[mwilbert]

I don't see much a trend here, except that there were a lot of arsons in 2009, which are probably indigenous.

http://http://www.city-data.com/crim...-Michigan.html

[ferntruth]

Please show a source that shows the suspects are from Oak Park. This runs counter to the news reports, which said they were from Detroit, and that they all fled to and hid in Detroit.


And that isn't even the point. Obviously 100% of Ferndale crime isn't going to be from Detroit. There will be folks from Highland Park, Oak Park, Royal Oak Township and other nearby communities with higher-than-average crime. Heck, there will be some criminals from Bloomfield and Grosse Pointe, I'm sure.

The point is that most crime originates to the south, and fleeing suspects know to head south.

Ferndale.patch.com is reporting that of the 3 suspects, 2 are from OAK PARK and one is from HAMTRAMCK. Just because the Hamtramck suspect fled south does not mean they are from Detroit.

You indicate [[correctly) that crime comes from everywhere, but yet you only want to dead end the Detroit facing streets?

[Bham1982]

You indicate [[correctly) that crime comes from everywhere, but yet you only want to dead end the Detroit facing streets?

I do think that if crime generally originates from a given neighboring jurisidiction, it's worth examing access points.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that communities bordering Detroit often have issues with crime involving Detroit [[whether perpetrated by residents, used as a convenient escape route, etc.). Obviously not all crime, but enough that neighboring police departments concentrate resources at these municipal borders.

And, yeah, if Huntington Woods residents are killing Ferndale dollar store owners and bringing guns to Ferndale school properties, then I would advocate looking at northern access points. Hardly unreasonable to look at crime entry points.

[Detroitnerd]

Ferndale.patch.com is reporting that of the 3 suspects, 2 are from OAK PARK and one is from HAMTRAMCK. Just because the Hamtramck suspect fled south does not mean they are from Detroit.

You indicate [[correctly) that crime comes from everywhere, but yet you only want to dead end the Detroit facing streets?

Well, once again you have the facts interfering with a perfectly sound prejudice.

[corktownyuppie]

I think something is being lost in this discussion. It doesn't really matter where the criminals were *from*. We can argue ad infinitum whether they came from Detroit, the "bad part" of Detroit, the "good part" of Detroit, etc.

The problem is not where they came from. The problem is that streets with easy access to exit routes are going to be more vulnerable to crime.

There was an article a few years ago about the relatively high petty theft rate in the Telegraph and 12-mile area, especially from parking lots. The reason was simple - you can break into a car and grab a bunch of stuff, then be on one of three freeways in under five minutes.

Agreed. The problem is not that Detroiters are going in and causing a ruckus. The problem is that it's too hard to defend areas that are seconds away from a main road. This is why prisoner exchanges and big illegal deals are done in the middle of a bridge...it's insurance that no one can make a quick move and get away.

Some of you might say, "Well, if it's about access, then shouldn't we be doing the same on the Detroit side?" Answer: Yes, if crime is a problem there, and yes, if the city can afford it.

This isn't about race. It may have some indirect relationship to socioeconomic class. But the reality is that it's about crime.

You know, at some point, you'd think we'd able to talk about crime prevention without it having to get about blaming groups and races. Believe it or not, I don't think the poor and downtrodden like crime, either.

[Detroitnerd]

The best crime prevention would be good educations for all, regardless of income level, with plenty of afterschool programs, fair and equal law enforcement and real future opportunities for all. Failing that, build your walls, cut off your streets, lock your doors and we can kiss our collective ass good-bye.

[ferntruth]

I do think that if crime generally originates from a given neighboring jurisidiction, it's worth examing access points.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that communities bordering Detroit often have issues with crime involving Detroit [[whether perpetrated by residents, used as a convenient escape route, etc.). Obviously not all crime, but enough that neighboring police departments concentrate resources at these municipal borders.

And, yeah, if Huntington Woods residents are killing Ferndale dollar store owners and bringing guns to Ferndale school properties, then I would advocate looking at northern access points. Hardly unreasonable to look at crime entry points.

No, just an incredible waste of time. Unless you plan on walling off the entire city, can't the criminals from Detroit [[that apparently you are convinced are massing at the city border) just go around the dead ended streets and enter through, oh I don't know..Pleasant Ridge? or Oak Park? or Hazel Park?

[Detroitnerd]

I think this thread is another good example of what we might call "conventional wisdom." Normally, I'd say this judgmentally, but I mean this not as a barb: Some people are apparently so convinced that they know how this region works that they don't need to know key facts before proposing wholesale design changes. After all, we all know that criminals mostly come from Detroit, right? And we all know that closing off streets will prevent criminals from coming in, right? Not one moment of actual research, and not one bit of factual explanation is apparently enough. How do otherwise intelligent-seeming people come to behave like this? How do they hew stubbornly to their initial reaction when shown the case was otherwise? That's a tough psychological question, but I'd like to put it out there.

[ferntruth]

I think this thread is another good example of what we might call "conventional wisdom." Normally, I'd say this judgmentally, but I mean this not as a barb: Some people are apparently so convinced that they know how this region works that they don't need to know key facts before proposing wholesale design changes. After all, we all know that criminals mostly come from Detroit, right? And we all know that closing off streets will prevent criminals from coming in, right? Not one moment of actual research, and not one bit of factual explanation is apparently enough. How do otherwise intelligent-seeming people come to behave like this? How do they hew stubbornly to their initial reaction when shown the case was otherwise? That's a tough psychological question, but I'd like to put it out there.

Dead on Nerd!

[Zacha341]

Yeah, but what about those who have no value for or interest in education? No amount of free, convenient, mandated or otherwise provided education was be of value to those individuals...

The best crime prevention would be good educations for all, regardless of income level, with plenty of afterschool programs, fair and equal law enforcement and real future opportunities for all. Failing that, build your walls, cut off your streets, lock your doors and we can kiss our collective ass good-bye.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, but what about those who have no value for or interest in education? No amount of free, convenient, mandated or otherwise provide education was be of value to those individuals...

Very few people have no interest in education, at least when they're provided with a good school and teachers. How few? Nobody knows. Why? Because for those most at risk of growing up illiterate and going to prison, it simply hasn't been tried. I say it's worth a try. Or we could just say that some people don't want education, so, based on them, we're going to deny it to whole classes of kids. Whatever makes us feel better, right?

[casscorridor]

Reactionary forces are based on exploiting real or perceived threats, they play to peoples emotions- their fears and anxieties. They say we need to build walls to contain or "protect" certain areas, they've said this in Israel/Palestine, in Germany during before and after the WWII, on the U.S./Mexican border, and even in Detroit. There is always a group of people, usually a race or ethnic group, that they must contain. Whether it be Jews during Nazism, Palestinians today, Immigrants [[especially from Latin America) or African-Americans, there is always a scapegoat. The owners and managers of society use a scapegoat to avoid the real problem, which is the very relationship of power and ownership and control in the economy and in society as a whole.

[mwilbert]

Very few people have no interest in education, at least when they're provided with a good school and teachers.

I think it depends what age you are talking about. I know of few six-year-olds who aren't interested in learning. I know of many sixteen-year-olds who have no interest whatsoever. Preventing the former from changing into the latter is one of the many challenges facing people trying to improve education among the hard-to-educate.

[j to the jeremy]

Reactionary forces are based on exploiting real or perceived threats, they play to peoples emotions- their fears and anxieties. They say we need to build walls to contain or "protect" certain areas, they've said this in Israel/Palestine, in Germany during before and after the WWII, on the U.S./Mexican border, and even in Detroit. There is always a group of people, usually a race or ethnic group, that they must contain. Whether it be Jews during Nazism, Palestinians today, Immigrants [[especially from Latin America) or African-Americans, there is always a scapegoat. The owners and managers of society use a scapegoat to avoid the real problem, which is the very relationship of power and ownership and control in the economy and in society as a whole.

Right. If we spent half the money we spend on war [[building both physical and psychological barriers to the outside) on education, we'd be coming a long way towards being a sustainable society.

The lack of education and lack of jobs [[because so much of our GDP is going towards bombs), is what leads people to abuse drugs, to rob pharmacies, and to try to make ends meet any way they can. These shitty micro-events are really just symptoms of a very sick society that doesn't know how to care for its people.

[ferntruth]

Right. If we spent half the money we spend on war [[building both physical and psychological barriers to the outside) on education, we'd be coming a long way towards being a sustainable society.

The lack of education and lack of jobs [[because so much of our GDP is going towards bombs), is what leads people to abuse drugs, to rob pharmacies, and to try to make ends meet any way they can. These shitty micro-events are really just symptoms of a very sick society that doesn't know how to care for its people.

Use war money for infrastructure and education? Where do I sign up for THAT?

[shovelhead]

The point isn't the surrounding area, the point is access. If someone wants to break into a house or business, they are looking for two things - how easy it is to get in and how fast they can get out [[and disappear.)

If the only way in and out is down one or two streets, and those streets are lined with cops watching every car coming and going - that makes things pretty rough for criminals looking to make a fast getaway.

There was an article a few years ago about the relatively high petty theft rate in the Telegraph and 12-mile area, especially from parking lots. The reason was simple - you can break into a car and grab a bunch of stuff, then be on one of three freeways in under five minutes.

Newswflash here, 30+ years ago I worked in the Telegraph-Twelve Mile area at a car dealership. Theft was ongoing back then too. The perfect storm so to speak. Easy freeway and major highway access. Excepting for Tel-Twelve and the Ramada Inn that used to stand north of Penske [[later Panian) Chevrolet, no night life so to speak. People passing by, vehicle travel only at relatively high rates of speed. No foot traffic whatsoever. Out of sight, out of mind.

Eight foot chain link fences, lights and security guards could not keep it secure. One time a thief was caught in the middle of the day, a workday. He was stripping cars inside our fenced lot and throwing the parts over the back wall. Our lead Prep man caught him and called the law.

[shovelhead]

Use war money for infrastructure and education? Where do I sign up for THAT?

Same thing was said during the Vietnam period. See how far that went too. History repeats itself.

[ferntruth]

Same thing was said during the Vietnam period. See how far that went too. History repeats itself.

The only history repeating itself is the tired dogma that we can solve every problem with military action. As an Army veteran, let me assure you that the men and women we use as cannon fodder agree with me - use the military when absolutely necessary but you cannot dictate foreign policy at the point of a gun...despite what the neo cons [[and some that never served) may think...

[canuck]

Ferndale.patch.com is reporting that of the 3 suspects, 2 are from OAK PARK and one is from HAMTRAMCK. Just because the Hamtramck suspect fled south does not mean they are from Detroit.

You indicate [[correctly) that crime comes from everywhere, but yet you only want to dead end the Detroit facing streets?

Too-shay!

But then again what's the point of building a Berlin Wall if you cant delimitate the boundaries of friend vs foe? Look at putting up walls as a community building project or as an ever increasing fucker-upper of gretaer Detroit. Walls are a lose-lose situation. They are put up by folks who refuse to dialogue, i.e.; Shankill, Belfast or Derry, Northern Ireland; Israel/Palestine. Detroit's ghettoes
are not black alone, they are a collection of ghettoes excluding the black from the white and vice versa from their premises in more or less overt ways. Walls wont help; mediation and dialogue will.

[Baselinepunk]

"I would like to see some evidence that crime in Ferndale is any worse than it has been in the last 30 years. I'm not saying it isn't, but that isn't my impression. It appears to me that Ferndale's biggest problem is the regional economy which has reduced property values and provoked an excessive level of foreclosures."

That does hurt but in my neighbourhood and a few others in town, those foreclosures have been all bought up by enterprising folks who are back flipping houses again. Although its nothing like it was in glory times, quietly home improvement and occupancy seems to be stable -- for the most part. The six on my street look great and all but one are occupied -- that's because it just hit the market last week.

Lower home values have equaled into property tax savings. Not everyone's mileage is the same; I know of a few people that have seen their property taxes drop -- some up to 300-400 bucks a year and some situations project even more tax savings in the next few years.

But to make up for those short fall of revenue the taxpayers voted to provide the support the city needs, up to about 5.0 mills after this year of 2.? mills for a total of five years. So hopefully if/when things become more stable we've put ourselves in the best possible position to be successful.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

I'll agree that there are larger homes in those areas you mentioned. As for wealthier, I'd like your source for that claim.

You can also check the Census Tracts.

But also a good start is to look at the Property Taxes those people in high-end areas of Detroit payes.