Shooting at Mandees

[BrushStart]

On what basis can you state Mandees is a haven for violence but They Say is not?
Please!
Do you live across the street from both venues?

Look at this thread critically.
Look how much slang is suddenly used.
Ask yourself why. Is it to paper over the lack of solid information?

I absolutely agree with joesmithrocks above. I live down the street from Mandees and have been to They Say many times, and am usually the only white person in there. This is not some thinly veiled attack on black culture. I freaking love black people. I live in a city where I'm the minority and am surrounded by black people all day and night. It doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I enjoy their company and perspectives and value their friendships. This thread, at least from where I'm sitting, is not about isolating myself from black people. It's about standing up against the wild violence around where I live, and where thousands of black folks live. What the hell am I supposed to say, "Oh, they're just violent young thugs doing what violent young thugs do, so it's okay." I don't care what the socioeconomic status of the neighborhood is, these clubs are fertile ground for violence and shouldn't be operating anywhere in Detroit. Period. These clubs just happen to be in my 'backyard' so to speak, so I'm very interested in seeing them shut down. Why do you have to make me look like I'm attacking the black youths of Detroit? It's not cool and it's not true. Nobody should have to put up violence.

[Blueidone]

There are "thugs" in every race. I do not frequent the "clubs" as I am 62 years old. However, I do have some younger friends who do. Those friends WANT to come downtown. They like the vibe of the city. But they will not come downtown if there are frequent shootings because someone didn't like the way someone else was looking at their partner, or because someone said something another person didn't like. Somehow, some way, we have to get through to those who carry guns and have no problem using them, that this is not the way to live. Violence only begets more violence. Soon there will be a retaliation for the shooting at Mandee's...where will that be? At Hart Plaza? At Campus Martius? I don't care of the shooters are white or black or brown or polka-dotted or aliens from another planet. We have to stop bringing guns to what is supposed to be a night of fun. We have to stop shooting each other.

Yeah...I know...I'm dreaming...but I will keep praying that it happens.

[English]

Look, the truth is that some of those establishments have sucked ever since I've been alive. People were getting shot in whatever the popular clubs were when I was a kid. When I was a teenager, I had a curfew of 11 pm. I hated it and thought my parents were awful. Except for prom night, their theory was that a young girl had no business in the streets after midnight. That advice never left me.

I will NEVER forget being at a club [[I forget which) on teen night back in the day. Met a cute guy from UofD and was dancing with him... my buddy tapped my shoulder. "English, you got to get out of here! Your dad's gonna be here in 5 minutes!" Between my raging hormones and my daddy's wrath, there was NO contest -- my dad was a crazy Vietnam vet AND a postal worker -- I got the hell out of Dodge, got my coat, and was on the curb just as my Dad was pulling up. [["Mmhm, you BETTER have come out of there. And you betta be glad your mama said you could go, I didn't want you to go to that bulls--t anyway...." And so on. Rest in peace, Dad.)

Later that night there was a shooting. A kid died. I think it was his 16th birthday -- I'd have to ask my high school buddies about the details.

Today, I have a rule -- I refuse to shut down parties, cabarets, bars, or clubs unless I have a good feel for the environment, the patronage, and where I'll park. There is no way in hell that I would walk more than a half block [[if that) after midnight/12:30 as a woman anywhere unless it were a life-threatening emergency. If I am not sure that I'll have a date, an escort, or will be with a group after a certain hour, I can and will entertain myself at home. After decades in this place, I wouldn't have good sense if I skipped around town merrily... or did you all read my post about my WSU student being attacked shortly before midnight a few weeks ago west of the Penobscot [[I finally got a location)?

Why do we [[a collective "we" from many backgrounds, ethnicities, and walks of life) seem to think that gunfire is normal, excusable, and/or explainable? No, that blankety-blankety ain't normal, cute, OR fun. It needs to be contained so that those who love it can indulge in it and suffer the consequences of it, and the area that it's safe to play around with bullets doesn't need to be 139 square miles.

Some people are addicted to what they feel is "excitement." To each their own, but how dare you take someone out -- or support an environment where someone might die through your patronage -- for kicks?

[stasu1213]

Let's face it. The decision makers in who allows these venues to open downtown are desperate or are ignorant to what make a vibrant safe community. I would rather see a bakery opening within so many blocks from each other than a club.We need elected officials who don't give in to the dollar. We need leaders who have a good sense of what make a solid community [[including downtown). The bloggers on this site. who don't think there is anything wrong with having these type of establishments downtown, are very shortsighted. The dancing clubs are not what they used to be. They were more sophisticated until the late 80's early 90's. Then the dress code changed which attracted a more rowdy clientel. Elected leaders who know how to make a thriving SAFE downtown. Don't elect leaders who are bought off or don't have a sense of what make a good community and a more welcoming downtown.

[majohnson]

You can wear the same clothes into Mandees as They Say.

Nowhere have I asked for black thugs to get a pass on their behaviour. I am asking however for you to withold from calling all, most, or a substantial portion of Mandees', Kingdom's, etc. customer base thugs.
It is simply not true.

Earlier BrushStrart mentioned having crime inside a venue linked to the business's alcohol license. I agree with that. I don't care which clubs are or are not closed as a result. I however question whether this could realistically be extended to crimes outside the venue, public sidewalk for instance, it could likely extend to the private sidewalk though.
I think most club crimes happen outside the venue. With regards to Mandees, Kingdom, etc., customers are checked for weapons at the door.

Administrative Acts must not be arbitrary or capricious. Anything other than a crime based response to closing down nightclubs would not stand up to judicial scrutiny [[aka, the club owner goes to court to have the club reopened). Thus, closing clubs on account of whether they allow hats or cater to a crowd less than 40 is not realistic or reasonable aspiration.

Also, there is an 18 and up nightclub, Bert's on Broadways, across the street from Mandees with an anything goes dress code. No shooting complaints about them so far in this thread. Are they not offenders or are they simply left out of the conversation?

[DJ Tom T]

Active nightlife is one of the MAJOR things a "proper" downtown has. It is a huge attraction for the "young money" demographic. You can't have a good downtown without nightlife. In Detroit, nightlife is the MAJOR driver of downtown activity. Don't believe me? Go hang out downtown on a "non game day" Saturday - ghost town until the bars & nightclubs get going.

That said, shootings at nightclubs are NOT good. They are indicative of the gun violence we tolerate in society at large - which is deplorable.

There's already a pretty decent police presence downtown. This issue is squarely on the venue owners. Security policies have to be tightened...period. Hopefully LAX takes a cue from this incident.

The city can't legislate where these venues go, nor should it - that's a decision for private business under the jurisdiction of the laws on the books. I don't see Detroit changing building codes to create a "red light district" any time soon.

Bars & clubs are a big part of a successful downtown. Educating venue owners and getting them to go the extra mile to ensure safety is where the focus should be.

[corktownyuppie]

The city can't legislate where these venues go, nor should it - that's a decision for private business under the jurisdiction of the laws on the books. I don't see Detroit changing building codes to create a "red light district" any time soon.

The city absolutely can legislate where these venues go. That's why zoning laws exist. It's what prevents a strip club from opening up across from the elementary school. It's what prevents a nuclear power plant from opening up next to Comerica Park.

Now you might hold the opinion that they shouldn't legislate where they go...but it's a whole other things to say they "can't". Bars and clubs are a big part of a successful downtown. I attend them regularly. By concentrating them into a smaller amount of space, you can more efficiently patrol and secure them. On Oulette St. in Windsor, you've got 10+ clubs all within a quarter mile. That way when fights break out in the street [[which happens every Saturday), it can be controlled quickly with 3-4 patrol cars. Our clubs are so spread out like little islands. You walk out of one at 2 a.m. and you're literally in no-man's land. I think by forcing zoning laws to move into the same vicinity, it actually helps in a few ways:

[[1) density creates commerce....many people aren't aware of all the nightlife attractions downtown because they are spread out. putting them together builds a brand and a vibe...the same way Somerset Mall is branded as the central location for upscale shopping

[[2) density creates security. 5 patrol cars can cover 15 clubs on the same block. 15 clubs on 15 different blocks make police stretch themselves, and some will have no police presence at all.

Now I'm not an urban planning guy, so someone enlighten me if I'm wrong. But I think we all win [[including the clubs) by keeping them all in one area.

[agrahlma]

I just saw a Twitter message about something called the East vs. West event scheduled for tomorrow at Mandee’s, which has now been moved to Burt’s on Broadway --- GREAT!

It appears to be a rap battle - can anyone confirm? I’m all in favor of young artists showcasing their talents, but in light of the shooting at Mandee’s, I was really hoping for a low-key weekend on South Broadway. If anyone has info on this event, please let me know.

[mallory]

I was a club DJ in the late 80's downtown [[Tangerine Room, River Place, Clubland) and along with the other big clubs at the time [[Taboo, Warehouse) there was NEVER a shooting over the several years that I worked down there. Proper attire was a must back then, and everyone did dress up. Ah, great memories of a time that's long gone I guess. Club owners need to wake up because events like this at Mandee's will only cause more "adults" to stay away from their club, and more of these "children" to be their customer base. End result? You'll close in 3 months.

[English]

The city absolutely can legislate where these venues go. That's why zoning laws exist. It's what prevents a strip club from opening up across from the elementary school. It's what prevents a nuclear power plant from opening up next to Comerica Park.

Right. And it's why there aren't strip clubs and sex shops in Times Square any more. Things change.

[English]

Also, there WERE shootings in or near clubs in the late 80s and early 90s. Those were my preteen and teen years, and some of the most violent this city had seen before or since.

[313rd]

After a quick Google search "Detroit Bar Shootings", the first few results;

July 2010 - Gleesons BAr [[Southgate)
April 2007 - Tippin Inn
December 2010 - Biker Bar/Club
Sept 2010 - Club Bayz
March 2009 - Esko Lounge
May 2010 - Shadow Bar
April 2011 - Cheetahs
Feb 2006 - Super Bowl [[Foran's Block)
2007 - Zoo BAr
Post Bar [[Clinton Township)
Rapper Proof - 8mile club


As, we can see this is not strictly in the CBD.

[tarynd85]

In a city that can't afford police on every corner, precautions have to be taken. Cover charges and strict dress codes. Since Bleu started charging $30 or $40 cover, I haven't seen any problems. I will gladly pay that if it keeps the trashy people out.

People need to stop trying to make it a race issue. Safety should be a priority for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's a hillbilly club or whatever type of place it is...if there are fights or multiple disturbances, it needs to be watched.

[corktownyuppie]

In a city that can't afford police on every corner, precautions have to be taken. Cover charges and strict dress codes. Since Bleu started charging $30 or $40 cover, I haven't seen any problems. I will gladly pay that if it keeps the trashy people out.

People need to stop trying to make it a race issue. Safety should be a priority for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's a hillbilly club or whatever type of place it is...if there are fights or multiple disturbances, it needs to be watched.

Race is definitely not the issue, as far as I'm concerned. I've always paid $30 at Club Bleu, so I didn't even know that was a recent thing. Both of the following events were attended by people who were mostly white:

the Hoedown - Free. Bordering on dangerous. Police trying to keep order.
the Electronic Music Festival - $30. Metal detectors and security everywhere. No behavioral issues.

Now I'm not saying charge a $30 cover. But by charging cover, it's not necessarily about keeping out the "unwanted" as it is having the resources to oversecure the venue and provide a safe space.

[adamjab19]

One strike and done with gun violence in or outside of your place of establishment. This shit CAN NOT be tolerated to have an even more viable downtown area. You don't see this shit happening outside of DBC, small plates, or 1515. Get the thugs out of their areas of congregation.

[agrahlma]

Well...Mandee's is open tonight – heavy security outside -- at least eight guys. Burt’s has heavy security too. I plan on staying-up to see if the police come by at closing.

[Django]

Last night [[Friday) was freaking me out, had three small incidents riding around on my bike. Usually I dont pay much attention to the full moon but last night I was feeling some scary vibes. I wonder if there were an increase in shootings or other violence. Ppl seemed to be on edge. Maybe just a coincidence with heat and full moon and all, Gannon?

[Islandman]

I was by Bucharest Grill last night trying to get some grub. There were at least 4 separate altercations happening at some club [[used to be the Detroit College of Law Library?) on Elizabeth. I thought to myself: how many minutes before gunshots go off?

Right when I thought this, some dude that wasn't involved with any of the shit going on, pulls out a piece as he's walking by my car and starts popping rounds off into the air. I was right at my car door, and I'm looking at this guy speechless. I wait for him to walk by [[we were about 5 feet from each other), and haul ass out of there.

On the very next block, there's an undercover hassling some chicks walking through GCP. I tell him what's going on less than a block from him, and he reverses back the way I came. All this chaos is going on for at least 10 minutes, and here is a cop less than 30 seconds away.

[midwesthostage]

So I would never claim to have the answer to a problem like this, and living in the Kales on the Elizabeth side I also heard those shots last night and found them disturbing. However; I don't like the idea of isolating such clubs because I don't like the idea of such clubs, period. And of course the police and government and the club owners all share responsibility in addressing violent crime. The other side of the coin for me though is, what about the general populations responsibility? I can't help but think that an increased presence of *normal*, hard working folks would either squeeze out the demand to cater to the thug crowd or provide the potential to disperse them and therefore avoid this type of incident all together? So for those of you considering moving out of the city, please, don't; you'll be contributing to the status quo. My family thought I was nuts for moving downtown two years ago and still try to get me to move back to the burbs; but I WILL NOT be SCARED out of living where I want most to live, especially by some egotistical, selfish, impulse-control lacking young hooligans.

[adamjab19]

Just walking around shooting a gun. These people have LOST. THEIR. MINDS.

Midwest- it seems as though the city's population has boiled down to this: the lawless, thug types, and those that are doing well in their well communities. There can be no mixing of the two to have a successful revitalization of the core of the city or of the surrounding neighborhoods that are trying to stabilize as well. I too wish there were more well to do people to increase the size of the well communities.

[corktownyuppie]

Just walking around shooting a gun. These people have LOST. THEIR. MINDS. I too wish there were more well to do people to increase the size of the well communities.

That's easy. Or easier said than done, at least. Pick the well communities and focus all resources to police the hell out of those areas.

And before anyone gets upset, let's think about the other option: Try to police them all equally, and lose all the residents from the "well communities" to the burbs. Then what are you left with?

[Planner3357]

Yep...since LAX opened...nothing but thuggery going on our street late night. Fighting...motorcycles revving their engines until 3:30am....and a huge amount of advertising cards littering the street and park.....This place is not good for this part of Detroit.

[corktownyuppie]

Yep...since LAX opened...nothing but thuggery going on our street late night. Fighting...motorcycles revving their engines until 3:30am....and a huge amount of advertising cards littering the street and park.....This place is not good for this part of Detroit.

unbelievable...yesterday there were cars double parked every where at midnight, and one truck was even blocking the exit from the underground ramp. 3 cops were there trying to keep order.

How you long you think this place will stay open?

[chitaku]

watching out my window there are 5 cop cars 4 parked on Adams blocking parked cars and one directing traffic from Woodward to Adams. Poor Kales building and have to really feel for the people in the Fyfe.

[Zacha341]

Yikes! So glad I don't live there.... dealing with after closing drunks on any level is not ideal. Lots of horn blowing and now even traffic impedance.

unbelievable...yesterday there were cars double parked every where at midnight, and one truck was even blocking the exit from the underground ramp. 3 cops were there trying to keep order.

How you long you think this place will stay open?