Shooting at Mandees

[SWMAP]

Five years ago there were virtually no shootings downtown; considerably less crime overall than in many major cities. What all changed?

[Detroitej72]

Sounds like the clubs that cater to the wannabe thug crowd need to go.

[joesmithrocks]

I'm visiting downtown this weekend - are there specific areas I should stay away from, and should I impose a curfew on myself?

Stay away from the clubs that cater to young, gangsterish crowds. You probably wouldn't be going into these clubs anyway. But the ones I know of are Kingdom, Mandees, Envy. There are others, too. A friend of mine who has lived downtown for 25 years says the most dangerous place in Detroit is outside one of these clubs near closing time. I believe he's right. Many of these clubs now check patrons for guns on the way in. So the guns stay outside in the cars. When the violence erupts, it often happens outside when the thugs can get their guns. And that happens near closing time. If you do that, you should be fine. If you're walking a long distance to your parked car after 1:00, keep your head up and eyes open. If you park near the place you're going, you should be fine. Just be smart.

[rencense]

Five years ago there were virtually no shootings downtown; considerably less crime overall than in many major cities. What all changed?

A very valid question.....

fewer police? more residents? more clubs?

I'm aware of the city/police budget but this always crosses my mind: Now i'm definitely all for getting proper policing in the neighborhoods and I don't want to rob peter to pay paul. BUT..... how much would it really cost to get a handful of extra cops on downtown patrol. The CBD is not that big and a handful of cops on patrol would go a long way i think. You can even make a strong economic return case for it; the improvement of safety [[and perception) would spin off more investment downtown. I wouldn't even be surprised if residents, apartment bldgs, businesses, etc would be willing to chip in somehow to pay for a few cops.

Now please dont flame me, I know this is much easier said than done. I also don't want to see more cops taken from outside downtown. Increasing safety downtown [[at least the CBD) is the best bang for the buck prospect in sight and probably end up as a net gain for the city financially. I see no reason why we can't at least get back to where we were a handful of years ago.

ps as mentioned earlier this would be aside from dealing with clubs who allow too much trouble to happen, that alone would make a big difference.

[stinkytofu]

I echo many of the sentiments here and am also saddened and frightened by the amount of gun violence we have seen downtown recently.

Two weekends ago I stayed until the end of the Tigers game that had the 2.5 hour rain delay/fireworks and finally let out at 1:15 AM. I had met up with friends at the game, while I parked down at my work parking spot near Cobo. The later the game went, the more I was getting concerned about making the walk back to my car that I wouldn't have worried about a few years back. While I was trying to be macho, I was more than relieved when my friend offered to give me a ride back to my structure. It sucks this is the reality we live in.

[ndavies]

Five years ago there were virtually no shootings downtown; considerably less crime overall than in many major cities. What all changed?

I think you are misremembering.[[looking at the past through rose colored glasses.) I was living downtown 5 years ago. I lived downtown from 2000-2008. There were plenty of shootings downtown while I lived there. 5 years ago actually had a spike in shootings downtown. There was a killing and another shooting downtown during Superbowl week[[2006). http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...shooting_x.htm A 24 year old women was killed on the street outside a club on the block Forans is at. There were several shootings around Blue and XS. There was a huge push to get Blue closed because of the number of shootings there.

There was a similar outcry at the time over the shootings downtown. The Shootings at the clubs downtown ebb and flow but never go away.

[corktownyuppie]

I wouldn't even be surprised if residents, apartment bldgs, businesses, etc would be willing to chip in somehow to pay for a few cops. .

If I was a property developer or landlord, I'd gladly pay a surcharge if I could be assured that every dollar went toward increasing the jurisdiction of Wayne State's cops to go all the way down to Jefferson.

[English]

Get the clubs that cater to the young demographic out of downtown. Move them to ONE area and police the living sh*t out of it. Contain it, contain it, contain it.

Until that happens, this will continue. Plain and simple.

And yet, according to one of my uncles [[who is into all kinds of crap) that will NEVER happen because our city officials are bought, paid for, signed, sealed AND delivered by the owners and operators of these establishments.

I also agree that you don't hear about drive-bys at the DIA or the MOCAD. Neither, I think, will you find them at the new Whole Foods for the same reason they aren't doing it over on Willis near Avalon. The hood folks I know don't even consider places like that *food* [[and I get crap about it). You need to watch the registers & have security near the doors, but what, are they going to shoplift protein powder or falafel? No.

[English]

I should also say that it's a very specific part of the urban, typically black young demographic. I was a young black urban kid who never did like that kind of environment. We had other spaces, like coffeehouses and the like.

[corktownyuppie]

but what, are they going to shoplift protein powder or falafel? No.

lolz. How many ounces of protein powder are in a dimebag these days?

[BrushStart]

Yeah, I'm sick of the bullshit downtown, too. It's gotten to the point where I won't walk by any of the clubs when they're open. There are fights and shootings inside/outside of them routinely. I don't want to give people the impression that downtown isn't safe, because by and large, it is very safe. These downtown clubs are what makes Midtown and other neighborhoods even more attractive. I started a thread a while back about closing Kingdom and several people went off about how these establishments "have a right" to be open. No, they don't. They operate at the discretion of the community. Liquor is a controlled substance, and if you can't create a decent, responsible environment to serve it, then you get your license pulled. Period. There are many bars downtown that cater to all types of demographics that do so in a manner that doesn't result in shootings, gang warfare, and other violence. Either keep your patrons and you establishment under control, or get lost.

[English]

lolz. How many ounces of protein powder are in a dimebag these days?

LOL!

Wait a minute... uh oh...

[Bagley]

[[along with the gun laws...but that's a whooole new topic)

Lest we forget:
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...MqvDk.facebook

[Bagley]

Can we speed up the gentrification and fortification of Greater Downtown? The most annoying thing about living downtown is that people who don't live there treat it with the casual disregard for civility they are accustomed to in their respective hovels.

[BrushStart]

Can we speed up the gentrification and fortification of Greater Downtown? The most annoying thing about living downtown is that people who don't live there treat it with the casual disregard for civility they are accustomed to in their respective hovels.

I think the time for reverse corruption is near. At some point soon, the people with legitimate money and financial interests in downtown will out-bribe the seedy establishment owners. Once the people with big money have something to lose, the owner of Kingdom will be pushed out like a little pissant. The only reason those places exist is because, for a long time, they were the best the city could do. They could push their weight around because there were no bigger fish in the pond. Once there is bigger money to be made off of decent, legitimate businesses, places like Kingdom and Mandees will be out of here. This is their last hurrah.

[SWMAP]

My reference for crime downtown circa 2007 was the following study: "Reality v. Perceptions: Analysis of 2007 Crime and Safety in Downtown Detroit by Demographer Jason Booza [[WSU):

"in 2007, 2935 major criminal acts were committed in the DVA. Nearly three quaters of these crimes were property crimes [[larceny, burglary and motor vehicle theft)...Overall, 2191 property rimes were committed int he DVA during 2007.

Violent crimes are not only less common than property crimes, but are shown to be quite infrequent when the number of people living in the DVA is taken into account. Only 6 homicides occurred in the DVA during 2007. "

Exhibits submitted with this report show that 4 of the six homicides happened in January, 2007 and two in April 2007.

Felonious assaults in 2007 were 558 with most occurring Sat-Sun.

I understand that this study was discontinued. It would be interesting to compare homicides and assault numbers from last year and this year.

FYI, the data was reported from the DPD and was based on the DPD's Incident-based reporting system.

[ndavies]

Yes, and I'm sure that the statistics will look just as good when they report them this year.

[Gianni]

Years ago, and slightly before my time, the Wayne County Prosecutor permanently padlocked Anderson's Garden and the Willis Show Bar as public nuisances based on the repeated prostitution that was going on in those establishments. It took a while and going to court a number of times, but those places never reopened. The only thing left of the Willis Show Bar is the replica tee shirts that Pure Detroit sold, now out of print I believe . Seems like if you can close a business down because they can't stop the hookers, you should be able to do the same if they can't stop the gun thugs.

Kym Worthy, are you listening?

[majohnson]

Wow! Nice thread you all have going.

Let me sum it up:
"Well we all know young Detroit men are predisposed to violence. Why not just shut down places where young black men gather?
Can anyone here name one nice young black nightclub? Because they don't exist!"
I guess there is no need to call young Detroit women sluts when you can just say they wear the sluttiest clothes?

Have any of you ever been to Mandees, Kingdom, etc?
How can the club maintain a customer base if everyone is being shot in and outside of the venue?

I have been to Mandees [[formally Evolution), and Kingdom, other Detroit nightclubs.
I didn't see any fights etc. The idea that these places cater to thugs is bunk.
I am not a thug, the people I went with are not thugs.

A young neurosurgeon recently moved an apartment down from me. He wanted me to show him some Detroit nightclubs that featured dancing. We both wore jeans and gym shoes. We visited Kingdom. Are we thugs?
I love promoting Detroit. Do you know how much it hurt to have to explain Detroit nightclubs are racially segregated?
We spent time at DeLux on Monroe street, where a fight broke out among non-young-Detroit men. Does DeLux cater to thugs?
Did anyone at the Dyes picnic wear a hat? Are you a thug?

Detroit Yes, we are better than that.

[BrushStart]

Wow! Nice thread you all have going.

Let me sum it up:
"Well we all know young Detroit men are predisposed to violence. Why not just shut down places where young black men gather.
Can anyone here name one nice young black nightclub? Because they don't exist!"

Here is a clue, have any of you ever been to Mandees, Kingdom, etc.
How can the club maintain a customer base if everyone is being shot in and outside of the venue?

Never been to Mandees or Kingdom, but Club Bleu has had violence problems as well, and it isn't a black nightclub. Why decent people continue to patronize these specific bars is beyond me. If they didn't patronize them, these hellholes would go out of business. There are plenty of other places that cater to young blacks than Mandees, Kingdom, and Envy. How about places like 'They Say' over on E. Riverfront, Flood's Bar & Grille, Vine Bar, Niki's, or even Sweetwater Tavern. Those bars have primarily black patrons and I never see or hear about problems at those places. The fact is, there are like 3 or 4 bars in downtown Detroit that cater to violent, thug-life, ass bags. I don't really care if they are frequented by blacks, whites, Asian Triads, or members of MS13. They are havens for violence and I'm sick of it. If I were a parent, I would forbid my kids from going to these clubs. I felt really bad for that mom whose innocent son got shot and killed at Kingdom. It's astounding that the place continues to draw a crowd each and every week. What the hell is wrong with people?

[majohnson]

On what basis can you state Mandees is a haven for violence but They Say is not?
Please!
Do you live across the street from both venues?

Look at this thread critically.
Look how much slang is suddenly used.
Ask yourself why. Is it to paper over the lack of solid information?

[Det_ard]

While it ought to be a little surprising to hear some of the typically more progressive voices on DY advocating a sort of apartheid or red-lining aimed at Detroiters they don't identify with, its not.

The upper class [[I know you're not all rich, but in relative Detroit terms, you're the upper crust) wants their safe green zone where they're not going to have to deal with some aspects of living in a diverse city.

To that I say, you're not living in the Back Bay or Rittenhouse Square, meaning you're not in a city with a large enough upper-class population to effectively isolate yourselves from the riff-raff you find objectionable.

The flip side of this is that you can afford to live here without paying $3500/month for your apartment or $500/month for your parking space.

It is what it is. And its nothing new. Ndavies's right, there have been club shootings before, he cites Blue, I could cite the shooting in the balcony at the Snap concert at Clubland [[State Theater) twenty years ago. The date and the location may change, but the dynamic is the same.

[majohnson]

Speaking on Det_ard's comment
Detroit is the red light district where society's undesirables are allowed more leeway in doing injustice to each other.

[corktownyuppie]

To that I say, you're not living in the Back Bay or Rittenhouse Square, meaning you're not in a city with a large enough upper-class population to effectively isolate yourselves from the riff-raff you find objectionable.

Class warfare aside, I'm looking at this issue from the perspective of the city's viability as a whole. Attracting upper income residents [[and then middle income residents) is, IMHO, a necessary component of any long-term revival.

So yes, while we expect that this isn't going to be Rittenhouse Square right now, making these types of incidents "excusable" is also not helpful in the long-term vision. Upper income residents want their "Green Zone"...I don't think its by birthright or privilege, but just by simple market forces. I can afford $1200/mo. rent and live in the city or I can pay the same amount 20 miles away and feel safe.

I can't speak for all of the newer residents migrating downtown, but I personally came back because I see the vision of what it could be. And while I understand that "these types of things happen" in cities and that we don't have the population density to "effectively isolate ourselves from the objectionable"....I want to see the city saying, "Look. We want you back. We want your commerce and your taxes. And even though things aren't necessarily pretty right now, here's our plan to change it going forward."

"This is Detroit, what did you expect?" is not exactly the slogan we want to attract money into the city. I can settle for "This is Detroit...it's not pretty, but we're trying to make progress"

[joesmithrocks]

I live across the street from Kingdom. Yes, I've been there. And in the last year there have been three shootings at Kingdom. Two of them fatal. At Envy, there haave been at least two shootings in the same time, one of them fatal. I called both of those clubs out for catering to young thug types. Maybe the word "catering" is wrong. Perhaps I should say they "attract" young thug types.

But I'm pretty comfortable calling guys who shoot people at clubs "young thug types."

I hang out at Floods all the time. And I had a weekly music gig at TV [[formerly Half Past Three) for a year on Fridays. At Flood and TV, I'm one o the few white folks. [[TV on Thursday is pretty white, but not on the Fridays I played.)

At TV and Floods I've never seen anybody shot. So if my descriptions of places where people get shot on the regular are setting off anyone's racist alarm, you need to adjust your settings.