BOMBSHELL: M1 Rail won't provide $100 million for DDOT's current Woodward rail plan

**BrushStart** · July-12-11, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by fnemecek

well, it also comes right after the budget debate in which the city council only cut $25 million from mayor bing's budget [[after threatening to cut even more) and after it became clear that the mayor really doesn't know how he is going to administer such a cut.

It makes me wonder how the city is going to maintain the status quo and still come up with the $2 million per year in operating funds that the current plans call for.

And for the record, i will knee cap the first person who suggests that my concerns make me a proxy for the ilitch organization.

Who put you up to this?!! Mike ilitch???!!!

**Scottathew** · July-12-11, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Danny

Now you all see, Bureaucrats at work! In this doomed to failure city of Detroit with a low population. The Woodward Light Rail is proposal is put back into the closet.

Not really. The "Bureaucrats" are actually doing what the people want, and running the majority of the the system up the middle of Woodward.

The Big Money bakers don't agree and are pulling their funding, which is completely within their right to do so.

Maybe we can revisit this without private dollars. Then we wouldn't have to compromise.

**corktownyuppie** · July-12-11, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Good points^ and informative discussion from all.

Regarding the 'find it curious', I find it kind of normal. Business interests indicate an investment move, offer up a plan, get everybody especially governing bodies excited and involved, then start to nibble away at their initial commitment using the thinly veiled threat of walking away.

When someone says $100 mil investment in these situations I always think, "Oh you mean $75 mil with a larger share of ownership after you pull a pouty fit, threaten to kill the deal and beat everybody down." Business is just done that way and I am so used to it I no longer take offense.

Agree. When you study the dynamics of a negotiation, the closer you are to an agreement, the more everyone has to lose if you walk away. If you are already in a position of strength [[i.e. you control $100MM and are working with an entity that has nothing), then it's no surprise that this is going on.

This is why almost all negotiations get done at 11:59pm on the deadline. Very, very rarely will you see 7 parties walk into a negotiating room on a big deal and walk out 4 hours early, saying "Hey...we're ahead of schedule! Let's drink some whiskey!"

**cramerro** · July-12-11, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The point of wanting an RTA has nothing to do with the investors not "getting their way", as you put it. The concern has more to do with this question: how can a transit agency that is still making cuts, and has recently made some pretty deep cuts and threatened even more, and which operates a so-so service at best, be trusted to operate something like this?

My thoughts exactly.

And for Rip Rapson to so blatantly say, 'we're fine with the alignment - and all the private backers will come around' makes me believe it, for what it's worth. I think Lowell's point about certain 'sources' saying it's all going down the tubes last week is more like the BS, public relations grandstanding I'd expect with alterior motives - not the tune Rip is playing.

I'm guessing that all of the M-1 group's dealings with DDOT and the COD [[with an exclamation point added by last week's agreement with FTA that didn't seem to include them) make them wary that if they just say "fine, take the cash - we trust you." Perhaps they're worried [[as I am) that we'll have a half-built [[DPM) or barely hanging on system 2 years after it's supposed to have been completed [[Rosa Parks Transit Center).

I'll agree that it is curious that they didn't really trumpet the whole regional aspect before, but like I mentioned earlier, I think that they have to respond to DDOT's actions just as much as their own original interests. As much as I am suspicious of businessmen, I am 10 times more suspicious of various COD decision makers.

**maxx** · July-12-11, 02:21 PM

I hope someone is finding money for police in Detroit. Not so long ago, women were being attacked waiting at bus stops. I don't think a brand new rail system stop will deter muggers. And people have said they don't like the buses because of the people who ride them. Is the new rail line going to guarantee a "better" class of rider?

**Detroitnerd** · July-12-11, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

I hope someone is finding money for police in Detroit. Not so long ago, women were being attacked waiting at bus stops. I don't think a brand new rail system stop will deter muggers. And people have said they don't like the buses because of the people who ride them. Is the new rail line going to guarantee a "better" class of rider?

No. The light rail vehicle will be filled with muggers and crack whores who will beat you up and give you AIDS.

^^^ Sarcasm...

**Det_ard** · July-12-11, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

I hope someone is finding money for police in Detroit. Not so long ago, women were being attacked waiting at bus stops. I don't think a brand new rail system stop will deter muggers. And people have said they don't like the buses because of the people who ride them. Is the new rail line going to guarantee a "better" class of rider?

Worse, dirty hipsters.

**Fnemecek** · July-12-11, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

I hope someone is finding money for police in Detroit. Not so long ago, women were being attacked waiting at bus stops. I don't think a brand new rail system stop will deter muggers. And people have said they don't like the buses because of the people who ride them. Is the new rail line going to guarantee a "better" class of rider?

There is plenty of money for police in Detroit. The Detroit Police Department currently has one of the largest budgets of any police department in the nation on a per resident basis.

The challenge is to get the City and the Department to spend the money on front-line police services and not on "administrative" costs.

**Fnemecek** · July-12-11, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

Who put you up to this?!! Mike ilitch???!!!

Somehow, I knew that was coming.

**Novine** · July-12-11, 09:32 PM

If M1 wanted a regional transit authority to come out of this project, they should have pushed for a project that extended across 8 Mile Road. Otherwise, what interest does Brooks Patterson have to support an RTA? While Brooks loves to bash on Detroit and deny any interest in controlling anything going on within the city limits, as we saw with Cobo, if Brooks can find a way to get his hands on the levers of controls within the city, he'll do so if he can play it off as "protecting Oakland County's interests". By pushing the project across 8 Mile, it would have forced Brooks to be part of the discussion of reviving an RTA. But since the project lies entirely within Detroit, there's no reason for Brooks to make any effort to create an RTA that would help give him control over the project. He doesn't even need to actively oppose an RTA to kill it. Simple inaction will do just fine.

**313WX** · July-12-11, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Somehow, I knew that was coming.

So when will you deliver his knee capping?

**Fnemecek** · July-12-11, 10:31 PM

When he least expects it.

**innercitydoc** · July-14-11, 08:37 AM

Another setback: http://www.freep.com/article/2011071...text|FRONTPAGE

The city council and the mayor at odds over who will sit on the construction board. Who could have imagined?

**jsmyers** · July-14-11, 11:04 AM

Another example of why the city's charter needs to be reworked.

**jsmyers** · July-14-11, 11:08 AM

Also:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...l-construction

**rbdetsport** · July-14-11, 12:03 PM

While all of the articles that are out today are aimed toward the negative end of things, I watched the video of the meeting and it isn't so bad. The news continues to sensationalize things of the light rail matter. The meeting was actually fairly positive. It proved to me that City Council wants the project to get moved forward, just as everyone else does. There was also the issue of the regional transit authority brought up multiple times, which also is a positive. I doubted that the council truly supported public transit for the city AND the region until today. They talked about the need for lines to extend to the suburbs in the future. This suprised me since they are usually only concerned with the city and pretty ignorant to the need for regionalism. Aside from all of this, I do hope the council and mayor can come to a resolution so we as a region can move forward!

**professorscott** · July-14-11, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

While all of the articles that are out today are aimed toward the negative end of things, I watched the video of the meeting and it isn't so bad. The news continues to sensationalize things of the light rail matter. The meeting was actually fairly positive. It proved to me that City Council wants the project to get moved forward, just as everyone else does. There was also the issue of the regional transit authority brought up multiple times, which also is a positive. I doubted that the council truly supported public transit for the city AND the region until today. They talked about the need for lines to extend to the suburbs in the future. This suprised me since they are usually only concerned with the city and pretty ignorant to the need for regionalism. Aside from all of this, I do hope the council and mayor can come to a resolution so we as a region can move forward!

My crystal ball is on the fritz but I think this will end pretty well. Lately we have evolved, within City government, this recurring game of chicken but it never ends in a crash. Look at the City budget talks for the most recent version of this. The same thing is going on now between the Mayor [[well, really, Mr. White) and Council over governance of Woodward Light Rail. I think in the end some sort of compromise will be reached, just like with the budget, after a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

**stinkytofu** · July-14-11, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

While all of the articles that are out today are aimed toward the negative end of things, I watched the video of the meeting and it isn't so bad. The news continues to sensationalize things of the light rail matter. The meeting was actually fairly positive. It proved to me that City Council wants the project to get moved forward, just as everyone else does. There was also the issue of the regional transit authority brought up multiple times, which also is a positive. I doubted that the council truly supported public transit for the city AND the region until today. They talked about the need for lines to extend to the suburbs in the future. This suprised me since they are usually only concerned with the city and pretty ignorant to the need for regionalism. Aside from all of this, I do hope the council and mayor can come to a resolution so we as a region can move forward!

I would agree. This original article is now five days old and there has been nothing else about the whole thing collapsing. In general Detroit's print media doesn't sensationalize as much as our TV news...and I cross my fingers that's not a path we're going down.

**BShea** · July-14-11, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

While all of the articles that are out today are aimed toward the negative end of things, I watched the video of the meeting and it isn't so bad. The news continues to sensationalize things of the light rail matter. The meeting was actually fairly positive. It proved to me that City Council wants the project to get moved forward, just as everyone else does. There was also the issue of the regional transit authority brought up multiple times, which also is a positive. I doubted that the council truly supported public transit for the city AND the region until today. They talked about the need for lines to extend to the suburbs in the future. This suprised me since they are usually only concerned with the city and pretty ignorant to the need for regionalism. Aside from all of this, I do hope the council and mayor can come to a resolution so we as a region can move forward!

Yes, that's exactly what I was doing -- sensationalizing. And the Wall Street Journal, with its photo of Rip Rapson standing in the middle of Woodward Avenue, basically telling the city to play ball because it needs Kresge's money ... that was sensationalizing. Everything is distorted and taken out of context, just to "sell papers." Did I miss any of the usual canards about the media?

Or, perhaps, I talked with people with direct knowledge of the situation. Like the story says ... people in a unique position to know that members of M1 are PISSED OFF and don't want to write checks for a system they're wary of, and to DDOT, and agency they distrust.

There was nothing sensationalized about the story.

And I'd caution that watching a city council meeting and coming away with any conclusions about the behind-the-scenes antics. The council isn't part of the Woodward project, other than approving some funding streams. This is a DDOT, FTA and M1 Rail project. And that's what had the council balking at Bing's plan to assemble a construction oversight board for the project. They're feeling marginalized.

**j to the jeremy** · July-14-11, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by BShea

Yes, that's exactly what I was doing -- sensationalizing. And the Wall Street Journal, with its photo of Rip Rapson standing in the middle of Woodward Avenue, basically telling the city to play ball because it needs Kresge's money ... that was sensationalizing. Everything is distorted and taken out of context, just to "sell papers." Did I miss any of the usual canards about the media?

Or, perhaps, I talked with people with direct knowledge of the situation. Like the story says ... people in a unique position to know that members of M1 are PISSED OFF and don't want to write checks for a system they're wary of, and to DDOT, and agency they distrust.

There was nothing sensationalized about the story.

And I'd caution that watching a city council meeting and coming away with any conclusions about the behind-the-scenes antics. The council isn't part of the Woodward project, other than approving some funding streams. This is a DDOT, FTA and M1 Rail project. And that's what had the council balking at Bing's plan to assemble a construction oversight board for the project. They're feeling marginalized.

It's too bad, but all the groundwork for this project was done during the last council's tenure. I think one reason DDOT didn't approach them was that they were worried about getting some Conyers crazy sauce on the project, dooming the federal funding.

**Novine** · July-14-11, 10:46 PM

"Or, perhaps, I talked with people with direct knowledge of the situation. Like the story says ... people in a unique position to know that members of M1 are PISSED OFF and don't want to write checks for a system they're wary of, and to DDOT, and agency they distrust."

You have to love those people pissing and moaning who get Bill Shea to run cover for them so they can complain in the papers without having their names associated with their comments. Nice work Bill!

**professorscott** · July-14-11, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by BShea

Or, perhaps, I talked with people with direct knowledge of the situation. Like the story says ... people in a unique position to know that members of M1 are PISSED OFF and don't want to write checks for a system they're wary of, and to DDOT, and agency they distrust.

What I find fascinating is that, well over a year ago, M1 Rail decided to more or less hand the project over to the City because they had learned that was the only way FTA was going to allow the M1 Rail project costs to be used as matching funds for any federal-grant money for the extension to [[almost) Eight Mile.

And now they are surprised that DDOT will be the agency running the project and that DDOT won't treat them as equal partners in the work of designing the system?

How is any of that possibly a surprise? These guys [[Messrs. Penske, Gilbert, Ilitch, et al.) aren't dumb; why are they astonished by any of this?

I feel the same way I feel at a horror flick when the teens are making out in the car in the woods and the guy with the ax starts to whack at the car. They didn't see that coming? Really?

**BShea** · July-15-11, 06:29 AM

And here's business columnist Tom Walsh of the Free Press "sensationalizing" M1 Rail's displeasure, too.

Link

How is any of that possibly a surprise? These guys [[Messrs. Penske, Gilbert, Ilitch, et al.) aren't dumb; why are they astonished by any of this?

I suspect that maybe after handing off their project to the city, they watched what unfolded. I suspect they were promised a more significant role at the table, but were shunted aside ... their money was what was wanted, not their ideas or preferences. In other words, they reluctantly handed it over to DDOT, and over time grew more skeptical?

You have to love those people pissing and moaning who get Bill Shea to run cover for them so they can complain in the papers without having their names associated with their comments. Nice work Bill!

You'd be very surprised by who is airing complaints. And your snarky statement implies you their complaints about DDOT's plan and its handling of this project are without merit. Interesting, because even pro-DDOT/DTOG backers don't agree with you on that one.

**bailey** · July-15-11, 07:51 AM

Detroit council balks at board to oversee light rail project

Detroit —Mayor Dave Bing is pitching a plan to create a five-member authority to oversee the city's light rail project, but some City Council members say the proposal gives him too much power.

Norm White, the mayor's top aide for the $500 million Woodward Light Rail, briefed council members Wednesday about the plan for the board to be comprised of the mayor, the City Council president and three appointees named by the mayor.

Councilwoman JoAnn Watson said the proposal showed "disrespect." A council attorney warned members to proceed "with caution" before considering the plan. And others are worried as well.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110713/MET ... z1S2FVgPDj

ok...again...why is an EFM bad for this town?

**Novine** · July-15-11, 10:05 AM

"You'd be very surprised by who is airing complaints. And your snarky statement implies you their complaints about DDOT's plan and its handling of this project are without merit. Interesting, because even pro-DDOT/DTOG backers don't agree with you on that one."

I wasn't commenting on the validity of the complaints. I was commenting on the gossip rag nature of the delivery of the complaints where some of the city's most-connected people get a mouthpiece in the media to air their complaints without having their names attached to them. This is typical of the garbage we get out of Washington DC where much of the press corps is nothing more than a filter for the rich and powerful to launch attacks while keeping their hands clean. Are you a journalist or a gossip rag columnist?