Does it make sense for Walled Lake to opt out of SMART?

[mtburb]

Look at the image below [[taken from the offical SMART map) and tell me why you would think Walled Lake should opt out:


Walled Lake is nowhere near any fixed routes [[the closest is route #405 in West Bloomfield Township) and the only SMART services are the Community Transit service and [[likely) the Connector curb-to-curb service.

So I think unless route #405 is extended to Walled Lake, that community is a perfect candidate for a SMART opt-out. Have any other communities you think should opt out?

[jtf1972]

Detroit should opt out.

[mtburb]

Detroit should opt out.

Detroit has already been opted out of all suburban transit since 1932.

But Canton can rejoin SMART so route #250 can serve IKEA.

[Novine]

Walled Lake chose to join SMART. Why would they get out now?

[mtburb]

Walled Lake chose to join SMART. Why would they get out now?

Could be due to isolation from the rest of the SMART service area.

[Novine]

Which was true when Walled Lake joined SMART.

[DetroitPlanner]

Not all of SMART's services are fixed route. Opt in communities are able to have SMART provide paratransit services for elderly and handicapped without creating a different department to handle those services. Often times opt out communities only provide transit services within thier own borders meaning if grandma needs to go to the doctor, and the doctor is located at say West Bloomfield Henry Ford, grandma is out of luck and has to take a cab even though she may pay for transit through gas taxes or even through a special millage if the community has one. By being part of a regional system it makes those stops easier. Walled Lake is not a big place. It has to rely on other nearby cities for some goods and services.

It makes sense for Walled Lake to be part of a regional system. I only wish other areas saw the benefits rather than seeing it as an added expense, power grab, or waste of money.

[cramerro]

This is also true for Macomb County. The whole county is 'opt-in,' but you'll notice that save a few routes up Gratiot, most fixed-route services don't go past M-59. The rest of the county is [[a) subscribing to be a part of the regional transit system and [[b) can take advantage of SMART's directly operated connector fleet. SMART also supports several community transit providers via its Community Partnership Program [[CPP) where it helps purchase and maintain vehicles and provides assistance in operations.

In fact, if you count the CPP vehicles, there are more 'paratransit' buses in the SMART fleet that operate non-fixed route service than there are legitimate fixed-route SMART buses. Just because fixed route services don't go to Walled Lake doesn't mean they aren't getting value for thier limited tax dollars siphoned away to SMART. And they are certainly part of the solution rather than part of the problem when it comes to funding regional transit.

[Danny]

Walled Lake will not opt-in to SMART BUS. They don't have the necessary tax dollars to be giving the OC Transit Authority in which to give to SEMCOG in which to give it SMART.

Other suburban cities who opt out SMART:

Canton TWP, Plymouth TWP, Northville TWP, Novi, Lathrup Village, Bloomfield Hills.

They have opt out since 1990 because they don't have the tax monies to keep thoses busses running their streets.

Livonia opt out SMART because of these matters:

1. The city don't have 3 million dollars from their fiscal budget.

2. The city don't want any more black folks hanging around their streets [[ A conspiracy that remains until today.)

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Give it about 100 years, then mass transit will be norm in Metro-Detroit area, not just people driving cars.

Neda, I miss you so.

[mtburb]

Other suburban cities who opt out SMART:

Canton TWP, Plymouth TWP, Northville TWP, Novi, Lathrup Village, Bloomfield Hills.

Since they opted out sometime during the 1990's [[possibly either 1990 or between 1994 and 1996) they only lost a few regional dollars, now people in these communities rely on their cars.

Livonia opt out SMART because of these matters:

1. The city don't have 3 million dollars from their fiscal budget.

2. The city don't want any more black folks hanging around their streets [[ A conspiracy that remains until today.)

They also opted out since the Walmart on the Wonderland Mall site had been attracting black people. The city also lost many regional dollars. Since 2006, industries in Livonia have been dropping like flies.

[cramerro]

They also opted out since the Walmart on the Wonderland Mall site had been attracting black people.

...which is pretty silly, since DDOT has Plymouth Road service that serves Wonderland and Millenium Park [[at Middlebelt/Schoolcraft). http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Portals/...PlymouthMS.pdf

I guess they would have really had a problem if SMART was still in Livonia given that Livonia Mall is now WalMart North...

[DetroitPole]

...which is pretty silly, since DDOT has Plymouth Road service that serves Wonderland and Millenium Park [[at Middlebelt/Schoolcraft). http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Portals/...PlymouthMS.pdf

I guess they would have really had a problem if SMART was still in Livonia given that Livonia Mall is now WalMart North...

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure DDOT extended the Plymouth route to those sites when Livonia opted out of SMART. I'm pretty sure there is virtually nothing Livonia can do to keep those dreaded DDOT buses out!

[R8RBOB]

...which is pretty silly, since DDOT has Plymouth Road service that serves Wonderland and Millenium Park [[at Middlebelt/Schoolcraft). http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Portals/...PlymouthMS.pdf

I guess they would have really had a problem if SMART was still in Livonia given that Livonia Mall is now WalMart North...

I must be old because I remember back in the day [[the 80's) when me and my cousin would catch the Plymouth Rd. bus to go to Wonderland. Was there a time when DDOT stopped going to Wonderland before they tore it down?

[Zacha341]

Yeah, they won the battle and lost the war........ I used to work in Livonia and it's tumble weeds now where some thriving industrial complexes once were.

They also opted out since the Walmart on the Wonderland Mall site had been attracting black people. The city also lost many regional dollars. Since 2006, industries in Livonia have been dropping like flies.

[Danny]

[QUOTE: They also opted out since the Walmart on the Wonderland Mall site had been attracting black people. The city also lost many regional dollars. Since 2006, industries in Livonia have been dropping like flies.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I also I can see why Ford, GM Powertrain Plant other retail stores is Livonia are disapearing fast. In fact, the Plymouth Rd. Business Corridor is become like a Detroit ghetto! There are 90% white folks living in the area, but with a ruined business corridors. Livonia needs to STOP hiding behind their invincible great wall and start getting to regionalization before it becomes like Detroit in 50 years.

By the way, Livonia is not Canton TWP. Plymouth TWP. Northville TWP. Walled Lake, Novi and other ex-urban areas. It's a city that that closer to Detroit as any suburb. So it have to need the SMART busses for job regional growth or face being an instant ghetto.

[cramerro]

Walled Lake already is an opt-in community. Also, the communities don't pay anyone anything from thier budget - it is a separate tax milage.

Map and list [[list at bottom) of Opt-IN vs Opt-OUT here: http://www.freep.com/article/2011060...nteractive-map

In Livonia the voters gave SMART property tax of .06 mils the ax http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...tem/index.html

and then increased City taxes by .05 mils [[slightly less than what was SMART taxing to gain support), then used that new City tax money to fill budget gaps and smaller part of it to pay for thier own transit service. In essence, they cancelled the dedicated SMART property tax so they could add to thier own property tax to fix the budget. They certainly used Danny's point #2 to build support for opting out.

Curiously enough, Livonia is also still a Community Partnership Program participant that has some buses bought for them by SMART using Federal and State dollars, but not directly operated by SMART.

[DetroitPlanner]

Curiously enough, Livonia is also still a Community Partnership Program participant that has some buses bought for them by SMART using Federal and State dollars, but not directly operated by SMART.

Thats how it works. SMART is the federal recipient for funding through the RTCC for all of Macomb, Monroe, Oakland, and Wayne Counties outside of Detroit. They have to supply funding for buses to communities that opt-out. Where it hurts is opt-out communities typically do not provide the sme level of service or cross-jurisdictional services like SMART does. Therefore Livonia does save 0.1 mills but it is much harder to get its seniors and disabled to places like Westland Mall or Botsford Hospital.

[Jman]

The fact that only 2% of Livonia residents used Smart probably had nothing to do with it.

[DetroitPlanner]

The fact that only 2% of Livonia residents used Smart probably had nothing to do with it.

That is sort of cutting off your nose to spite your face as there are a lot of employees who work in Livonia who could use the service. By not having that service Livonia becomes a more expensive place to do business [[the same would be true of outsiders using the bus to get to jobs in Detroit). Incidentally its not neccessarily a race/anti-Detroit issue as Livonia was also serviced by buses running south and north, connecting west bloomfield with the airport. This means less ways for residents of Livonia to get to work in places like Romulus, Farmington Hills or West Bloomfield.

[cramerro]

I was addressing the race issue and how it all went down in Livonia, not whether it was warranted by ridership or not. Ultimately, the ciy voted to opt-out - can't argue with that, it's how the system is set up. In fact, the change worked out great for me, since they re-routed the Livonia Park and Rides to the 805 that comes right down Beech Daly so it's walking distance for me now that I work downtown. Plenty of people from Livonia [[and Plymouth for that matter) use the 805 and just drive to Western Golf or Fenton P+R lots, probably instead of driving to whatever lot they used before.

As a brief aside, there was one day that a guy who lives on Farmington [[old 820 or 810) said he was mad when they opted out because he bought a place mostly becuase it was along the P+R route that went by. Crazy, I know, and that was only one guy.

[mtburb]

I was addressing the race issue and how it all went down in Livonia, not whether it was warranted by ridership or not. Ultimately, the ciy voted to opt-out - can't argue with that, it's how the system is set up.

Also the opt-out caused the discontinuation of route #285 Middlebelt, which has been replaced by route #280 Middlebelt South but only as far north as Garden City.

[Jman]

I was pointing out the 2% ridership issue as most on this board feels it's a racial issue.

The voters didn't want to pay the extra millage because they didn't use the service.

We voted for the millage as both my wife and I worked downtown and used Smart 5 days a week.

Now that I'm retired I will vote against. I'm sure that this board will feel that I am a racist because of any future vote.

[Scottathew]

We voted for the millage as both my wife and I worked downtown and used Smart 5 days a week.

Now that I'm retired I will vote against.

But wouldn't you want to continue services so that other people could use them?

With that kind of thinking it's hard to get stuff done!

[Jman]

But wouldn't you want to continue services so that other people could use them?

With that kind of thinking it's hard to get stuff done!

While it is true that it will be harder to get stuff done, I have given to many causes all of my life.

Unfortunately now that I'm on a fixed income, I need to watch every penny so it is hard for me to

do as much for others as I have in the past.

[Scottathew]

While it is true that it will be harder to get stuff done, I have given to many causes all of my life.

Unfortunately now that I'm on a fixed income, I need to watch every penny so it is hard for me to

do as much for others as I have in the past.

Fair enough reasoning!