Concealed gun permits increase across Michigan

[GOAT]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....yup, because more guns have made the average person safer. Cripes what a waste. I wonder how many are tough guys now? What stupidity.

[Bagley]

...and I am fearful of those who aren't and do so anyway because pretty soon someone who thinks they are Hero McGee is going to pop a few off in a crowd where they had no business pulling and we're all going to pay the price.

I guess that that is where our experience diverges. the folks I know are if anything doing too much training. One friend sent me an invitation to a training that was so thorough it included sections in negotiating and team-building under stress. My friends fall mostly into two groups, those who are deathly afraid of guns until they are deathly afraid of something else and those who have a really sound understanding of their rights and responsibilities. If I knew someone who was not a safe CPL holder, I'd be sure to let that be known by my county sheriffs office.

I guess it depends on who you know but I'm glad to have had a civil discussion with you one where we both stand. I know that there were folks in my CPL classes whom I've hoped were not issued CPL's but that is their business if they have done so lawfully. I'm not against more stringent training and would even like to have folks demonstrate their ability and knowledge of gun saftey.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

I guess that that is where our experience diverges. the folks I know are if anything doing too much training. One friend sent me an invitation to a training that was so thorough it included sections in negotiating and team-building under stress. My friends fall mostly into two groups, those who are deathly afraid of guns until they are deathly afraid of something else and those who have a really sound understanding of their rights and responsibilities. If I knew someone who was not a safe CPL holder, I'd be sure to let that be known by my county sheriffs office.

I guess it depends on who you know but I'm glad to have had a civil discussion with you one where we both stand. I know that there were folks in my CPL classes whom I've hoped were not issued CPL's but that is their business if they have done so lawfully. I'm not against more stringent training and would even like to have folks demonstrate their ability and knowledge of gun saftey.

Training has nothing to do with their mental state. Anyone can get CPL. Most of the guys who performs the mass murders are highly trained with guns [[i.e. Tim McVeigh).

So I ask the question, " How can a gun protect you?"

[Bagley]

Too many cops are recruited from suburbs and rural areas that know little about urban life. Therefore, they are scared to act.

I wish it were that black and white. I can't tell you to a certainty the ethnicity or upbringing of any of the several DPD officers who have flatly refused to enforce crimes ranging from assault on a police officer to walking into the fireworks with an open liquor bottle.

[Bagley]

Training has nothing to do with their mental state. Anyone can get CPL. Most of the guys who performs the mass murders are highly trained with guns [[i.e. Tim McVeigh).

So I ask the question, " How can a gun protect you?"

A gun doesn't protect you--nor does a gun kill people. A gun is a tool but one's training and awareness keeps he or she safe.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

I wish it were that black and white. I can't tell you to a certainty the ethnicity or upbringing of any of the several DPD officers who have flatly refused to enforce crimes ranging from assault on a police officer to walking into the fireworks with an open liquor bottle.

However, I have seen cops who did not comes from urban life looked like they wanted to pee in their pants when they tried to resolve a situation. It is what it is.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

A gun doesn't protect you--nor does a gun kill people. A gun is a tool but one's training and awareness keeps he or she safe.

Which is my point exactly for those advocating to that a gun keeps them safe. A hand gun is an offensive weapon. It is not a bullet shield.

Criminals do not warn you that they are going to pull a gun. They have the element of surprise. Having a gun does not stop you from being shot or mortally wounded. Therefore, a gun does not keep you safe. If you want to be protected, Then wear a "bullet-shield"..wear a bullet-proof vest and a helmet. These items are use to protect and defend. A gun is for offense.

[Buy American]

Michigan CCW Laws:

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
   
2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
   
3. Sports arena or stadium
   
4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
   
5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
   
6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
   
7. A hospital
   
8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
   
9. A Casino
   
   

[ejames01]

Offense can often be the best defense.

Which is my point exactly for those advocating to that a gun keeps them safe. A hand gun is an offensive weapon. It is not a bullet shield.

Criminals do not warn you that they are going to pull a gun. They have the element of surprise. Having a gun does not stop you from being shot or mortally wounded. Therefore, a gun does not keep you safe. If you want to be protected, Then wear a "bullet-shield"..wear a bullet-proof vest and a helmet. These items are use to protect and defend. A gun is for offense.

[Bagley]

Criminals do not warn you that they are going to pull a gun.

I would beg to differ. Criminals may not literally warn you that they are going to pull a gun but when you are aware and vigilant, a criminal is going to betray his intent. I think there was a post on spotting criminals a week ago. Knowing criminals is important but also recognizing the traits of victims is informative. Victims generally are predictable and lack awareness. Lack of awareness leads to failing to recognize or make eye contact with would be criminals and failing to control who enters ones personal space. Safety is about a vigilant and flexible mind. That is not to say that mindset is the only tool or a perfect one but neither is a bullet-proof vest truly bullet proof. A network of such minds is as near to a perfect tool as we can come.

[ejames01]

Absolutely! And I believe that carrying a firearm makes you even more vigilant [[even when you are not carrying). I tend to observed EVERYONE that that is anywhere near me now.

I would beg to differ. Criminals may not literally warn you that they are going to pull a gun but when you are aware and vigilant, a criminal is going to betray his intent. I think there was a post on spotting criminals a week ago. Knowing criminals is important but also recognizing the traits of victims is informative. Victims generally are predictable and lack awareness. Lack of awareness leads to failing to recognize or make eye contact with would be criminals and failing to control who enters ones personal space. Safety is about a vigilant and flexible mind. That is not to say that mindset is the only tool or a perfect one but neither is a bullet-proof vest truly bullet proof. A network of such minds is as near to a perfect tool as we can come.

[mikefmich]

[QUOTE=HistoryNotHisStory;254636]Training has nothing to do with their mental state. Anyone can get CPL. Most of the guys who performs the mass murders are highly trained with guns [[i.e. Tim McVeigh).
QUOTE]
That's just a silly statement. How does a fertlizer bomb even relate number one.

And as fas as highly trained.....name me 5 mass murders who you think were highly trained. 5
would still not be most, and if you consider the Armed Forces highly trained gun handlers....with a few specialty unit exception, that's a joke.

Do you really need to continue to ask such an inane question as how can a gun protect you? If someone is totally stupid, then a gun may not do them much good. However if one is not stupid.....

[shovelhead]

This thread reminded me of this other recent story:

Gun owner to face charges in gun show shootingYikes! How can that even happen? Misfired not once but twice?

Any gun show I have attended have a requirement that firearms are unloaded and zip tied. Including firearms carried by LEO's. So the rules at Gibraltar are? Sounds like the gun owner's brain misfired.

To the poster that advocated open carry, let us know how that works out when you are targeted as the first one to take out in a robbery. Kind of like wearing a sign "kick me". Or while walking down the street someone does a snatch and run from behind on your gun. Don't think it can't happen, remember the element of surprise.

To the ones that say "well he or she should not have been there", the answer I have is that wherever you are, something can happen. Case in point, a recent confrontation with a door to door salesman. I told him THREE times that I was not interested in his product. The fourth time I said "Do you not understand?" He started swearing at me. What if he decided to lunge at the screen door? The incident did not escalate to that point, but it could have. Then what? Is it my duty to say to him, "All's forgiven, come on in and have a beer. Sure I'll buy all your product. let's be friends." Or do I tell him to please stop tearing through while I call the police? Or am I to remain a prisoner in my own house afraid to answer the door?

You want to stop gun violence, great. For example do something about the fourteen year old kid that shot himself and a bystander last night at the fireworks. Or a few years ago the group of teens that held up a man at a northwest side car wash with a unloaded gun. The victim, a CPL holder shot the gun holder. How was he to know it was unloaded? Was he supposed to ask the perps if they had ammunition? Or the shooter that ended a eviction dispute with gunfire a few weeks back. Of the three cases cited here, at least two of the perps could not legally possess a handgun or hold a CPL. The last case, he was of legal age anyway. I can't say if he did or didn't have a CPL.

Ban firearms? A lot of things can be turned into weapons, will we ban hammers, baseball bats, cue sticks, kitchen knives and on and on?

There have been incidents involving CPL holders doing stupid things, they get theirs. Besides the court system, they will have their CPL suspended pending a appearance in front of the gun board. And the boards do not take kindly from what I hear to court appearances. I know of only one, reckless driving charge while carrying. Even though he plead guilty to a reduced charge, he still had a suspension and a visit to the board in his future.Haven't seen him in a while so I do not know whether he has a permit any longer.

[Searay215]

Michigan CCW Laws:

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
   
2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
   
3. Sports arena or stadium
   
4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
   
5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
   
6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
   
7. A hospital
   
8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
   
9. A Casino
   
   

Here is a list of businesses that have signs that say "No Firearms allowed" This list is intended as a Do Not Partonize list because of their policy on carrying.
http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_no_gun_signs.asp