Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside Rail

[Rocko]

I think the compromised final plan as set forth including the wrap-around trip to the Rosa Parks Bus Cloud is a good design. As was previously said above, this will allow the system to tie-on effectively with other light rail when that is one day built. Obviously, all spoke roads are candidates for light rail [[and hopefully, bus rapid transit before that time), but among the best candidates are Michigan Avenue and East Jefferson. Both of which can easily link up with the Woodward line and terminate at Rosa Parks Cloud with the new compromise final alignment.

My question is, once Woodward light rail opens, what will DDOT and SMART do about operating a Woodward Avenue bus line? Obviously SMART will try to coordinate their Oakland County Woodward Bus with the light rail arrival and departure first from Grand Blvd. and later from State Fair. But what about bus travel over the same stretch of Woodward where the trains run? Will buses continue to run on Woodward, to support local and corner-to-corner traffic? Will bus lines shift to John R. and Cass and allow the light rail all of Woodward to itself?

[East Detroit]

We need to send a message to Gilbert and those other rich guys that we don't want their free mass transit dollars. We can do that by bickering and complaining ad infinitum like we did when that jerk Gerald Ford offered us free money for mass transit. Who's laughing now, Jerry?

[kraig]

And in this case, the federal government is ponying up the most "gold".

Detroit Golden Rule 101.

Business person to politician- I need some gold for a project.

Politician to business person- I don't have any gold myself. However, I do have access to a lot of gold that's been entrusted to me. I can provide that for a good enough reason.

Business person to politician- Such as?

Politician to business person- If you can provide some gold for my personal use, I can provide much more gold that's been entrusted to me in return.

Business person to politician- You've got yourself a deal.

[kraig]

We need to send a message to Gilbert and those other rich guys that we don't want their free mass transit dollars. We can do that by bickering and complaining ad infinitum like we did when that jerk Gerald Ford offered us free money for mass transit. Who's laughing now, Jerry?

Come on East Detroit. I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're too smart to believe they're spending their own money on this. This is equivalent to Sport stadiums and arenas.

The owner says that they have X amount of dollars.

The owner says that the project will cost X+Y amount of dollars.

The project really only costs Y amount of dollars.

The owner keeps their X amount of dollars and now reaps all of the profit of a publicly financed project.

[casscorridor]

The second most important line would be Michigan Ave connecting Downtown to Dearborn- two major job centers with many viable neighborhoods in-between, perfect for new residential and commercial development.

The Woodward Line extension to Royal Oak would obviously be good, but Dearborn is still a much more important/highly frequented destination. But there could be a second extension of the Woodward line, which perhaps could even be the first. That is a spur at McNichols, past University of Detroit-Mercy and Marygrove College and Sinai-Grace hospital and up the Lodge to connect to Northland, Providence Hospital, and Lawrence Tech University, as well as many office complexes.

These are the types of extensions we need, ones that will serve people on a day to day basis, rather than on special occasions such as going to a ball game or casino. Metro Detroit is a very disparate place, but there are several concentrations of destinations, such as Downtown, Midtown, Dearborn and Southfield. If we can connect these places, and encourage people to live between them, along transit lines, we might have a shot at bridging the gap between city and suburb, and reviving what few urban neighborhoods we have left.

The city, as it is now, is set up for driving. The city is oriented toward cars. We should make the city oriented for people, the city needs to be set up so it's easy to walk, and so that public transportation is readily accessible. Then maybe we can talk about being the next destination city. Right now, we just need to work on making the city worth living in, for the people already living here.

[royce]

Was there really a comprise here? South of Grand Circus Park the light rail tracks would have to go down the side along the curbs anyway. There's no room for the tracks to go down the middle on any of the downtown streets in any of the proposed routes. It's clear that those who wanted a center-aligned system won out over the M1 folks. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is with the Detroit News and Freep web editions showing the M1 drawing as if this is the way the light rail system is going to look when clearly it's not. Only Crain's web edition shows what the proposed system is going to look like. I can't believe the other papers couldn't find a copy of DDOT's rendering of the center-aligned system. And speaking about DDOT's rendering, why is it that when they show the Foxtown station, the tracks are imbedded into the pavement of the street, but when you look at the Grand Blvd. station the tracks look like a regular rail line bed, with wooden planks and gravel. What's that all about? At any rate, let's hope the system gets done soon and can eventually branch into Oakland county.

[j to the jeremy]

The second most important line would be Michigan Ave connecting Downtown to Dearborn- two major job centers with many viable neighborhoods in-between, perfect for new residential and commercial development.

The Woodward Line extension to Royal Oak would obviously be good, but Dearborn is still a much more important/highly frequented destination. But there could be a second extension of the Woodward line, which perhaps could even be the first. That is a spur at McNichols, past University of Detroit-Mercy and Marygrove College and Sinai-Grace hospital and up the Lodge to connect to Northland, Providence Hospital, and Lawrence Tech University, as well as many office complexes.

These are the types of extensions we need, ones that will serve people on a day to day basis, rather than on special occasions such as going to a ball game or casino. Metro Detroit is a very disparate place, but there are several concentrations of destinations, such as Downtown, Midtown, Dearborn and Southfield. If we can connect these places, and encourage people to live between them, along transit lines, we might have a shot at bridging the gap between city and suburb, and reviving what few urban neighborhoods we have left.

The city, as it is now, is set up for driving. The city is oriented toward cars. We should make the city oriented for people, the city needs to be set up so it's easy to walk, and so that public transportation is readily accessible. Then maybe we can talk about being the next destination city. Right now, we just need to work on making the city worth living in, for the people already living here.

I think those are both wonderful ideas for extensions. I think Michigan Ave. is the logical next step as well.

[professorscott]

Be careful what you read in the press. Bill Shea wrote a very good article in Crain's; on the other hand the Detroit News had Matt Cullen's name as "Dan Cullen" [[apparently Dan Gilbert and Matt Cullen have now morphed into a single entity), and misspelled Carmine Palombo's last name, among other things.

To answer two things that have come up in this thread: First of all, from all reports, the light rail will look much different south of the Fox than north of it. North of the Fox, actually from Adams Street north, the trains will run in the median a la the DDOT plan that we all saw at the public workshops. South of Adams, the trains will run near the curb as in the M1 Rail plan. Then the trains will divert west to Rosa Parks Transit Center using Congress/Larned and Washington, which was not in any plan that's been shown up to now. I think it's a good compromise, but we'll have to wait to see what the M1 Rail folks think, since it might not be possible to build the system at all without that money.

Second, buses: The light rail isn't going to serve all stops that the DDOT and SMART Woodward buses serve, so there will continue to be a need for local service. Whether the frequency will be the same remains to be seen, or whether SMART will in any way modify how their service along Woodward works, etc. But there will always be buses on Woodward; the light rail doesn't replace that, it just provides a faster option for people going a considerable distance.

[mwilbert]

You do mean south of that, right?

Yes. Oops.

[detmsp]

I think it's a good compromise, but we'll have to wait to see what the M1 Rail folks think, since it might not be possible to build the system at all without that money.

Sounds like you got the same impression I got... that they announced this plan and decided this was the compromise without really running it by those with the money. If this is true, that's just ridiculous.

[jsmyers]

I think shuttle buses could handle this better than building a spur off a light rail line [[that's kind of a big deal, engineering-wise, scheduling-wise and rolling stock-wise). But, once this proves to be a success, there's no reason why we couldn't restore the old streetcar routes, which included Mack and Gratiot [[Eastern Market linked from all directions), Michigan Avenue [[Corktown), Jefferson [[East Riverfront) and Grand River [[Woodbridge).

It's important to link the locations that are doing well now, but I want to stress that this shouldn't be thought of as a way to link vital locations a la People Mover, but must be part of a comprehensive, city-wide mass transit SYSTEM. Not just something that will benefit one development or one neighborhood or one casino, but something to actually provide rapid transit service.

That is a fair critique of what I wrote. If Woodward LRT ran all the way to 8 mile or Royal Oak, I don't look at making a handful of short extensions to other parts of greater midtown as being just about linking "vital locations a al People Mover.," but there is a risk that it becomes that if not done correctly. If done correctly, these lines are the first step of a quality regional transit system AND they are an extremely effective urban transit system.

Remember that until the 1920s, Detroit was basically contain within Grand Blvd. [[And it was a big city for its time.)

What I'm suggesting is that it is more important to connect the urban core of the city together with one seamless system before any one line [[except Woodward) is extended.

This map shows what I think Detroit's LRT system could and should look like in 10-15 years:
Map Link

Of course, we've been reading a lot about Phase 1. Phase 2 is an extension to the Woodward suburbs. Because of the need and ability of LRT to attract a strong commuting base as well as its ability to connect the entertainment and retail areas north of New Center together, this is the important next phase. It makes any future expansion part of a regional transit system.

Phase 3 has many independently useful parts. In rough order of importance:

3a - Michigan Ave to 14th. Serves Corktown as well as the far west edges of downtown with probably 3 [[maybe just 2) stops. Further into the future, it can be extended down Michigan to Dearborn and/or Vernor into SW Detroit and S. Dearborn.

3b - Jefferson to the East Riverfront. Jos Campau is 1.5 miles. This line could be extended in the future to Mack via Atwater to serve the Points.

3c - Gratoit to Eastern Market. Serves the NE part of downtown, Brewery Park, and Eastern Market with 3 stops in 1 mile. It might make sense to extend it one more stop and about 1.2 miles to Mack, so that buses from Mack and Gratoit can exchange passengers [[and then the buses continue to the Hospitals on Mack).

3d - Grand River to Woodbridge. Serves the community there as well as DTE and the Motor City Casino. It is about 2.25 miles to Warren. Because of the length, this might be a weaker option than the next.

3e - Grand Blvd. 1 mile of track would bring the Henry Ford complex directly into the system.

The map also shows the DPM, including what I think is a logical extension to make it more useful. The map also shows how Grand River, Gratiot, and State downtown can be used as a second downtown routing for some of the LRT lines if capacity on Congress and Larned become issues. Finally, the map shows one way to utilize the transit way in the Dequindre cut. While I don't think it is an extremely important piece of the network, it would be a much faster way to get from New Center to the Ren Cen and the Riverfront.

Notice that the what I'm proposing isn't a replication of the DPM. It brings major job and cultural centers into the network with none or maybe one transfer. It means that employees or guests of the MGM and Motor City can take quality transit. It means that residents of Corktown can commute to the DMC on high quality transit. In other words, it makes living in Detroit without a car an attractive option for a much greater share of people.

[esp1986]

Sounds like you got the same impression I got... that they announced this plan and decided this was the compromise without really running it by those with the money. If this is true, that's just ridiculous.

It sounded like everyone layed out their priorities. I sounds like those with the money wanted curbside service at their businesses, i.e. Downtown, and apparently they wanted a certain number of stops in Midtown/Newcenter. It looks like they got their curbside service downtown, in exchange for median running north. The stop at Baltimore was also removed. It is somewhat unclear who wanted what, but hopefully they can agree that nobody will get everything they want, and accept what seems to be a reasonable compromise. To reneg now, after all that the project has gone through, would almost certainly doom it. It would still be possible that the city could sell bonds just to ensure it happens, but with the city's budget woes, even the $10-12mil per year [[assuming 15yr bonds) it would cost to repay those bonds would be a tough sell. Dan Gilbert is really 'taking the baton' in terms of Downtown development, he stands to benefit the most from this if his investments in downtown pay off, so they would really have to not like this deal to reject it now.

[GUSHI]

It needs to go all the way to 59. With Woodward and Gratiot being the lines to 59. Living in Macomb county by would I stop at 8 mile, park then hop on the train to go downtown. If I could park somewhere on 59 and hop on the train it just make more sense for people living in Macomb/Oakland north suburbs.Amd also have a station at 16 mile/big beaver/ metro parkway.

[Detroitnerd]

It needs to go all the way to 59. With Woodward and Gratiot being the lines to 59. Living in Macomb county by would I stop at 8 mile, park then hop on the train to go downtown. If I could park somewhere on 59 and hop on the train it just make more sense for people living in Macomb/Oakland north suburbs.Amd also have a station at 16 mile/big beaver/ metro parkway.

It's difficult to envision a light rail system running that far for a few reasons. For one, there is no express service to bypass enough stops to run quickly between such long distances. Also, the possibilities of serving an area that is so diffuse with a mode that best serves denser areas seems more remote. This is not to say you couldn't have modes that reach out that far, but I would think commuter rail would do that job best. Or am I mistaken? Any more expert transit-heads care to sound off?

[mwilbert]

A 16+ mile ride on an LRT is a long ride. I can't imagine many people would take that option if they have a car and there is adequate parking closer in. Although I don't agree with jsmyers' specific routes, I think there would be a lot more benefit from adding spur lines in denser areas than in extending the Woodward line past Royal Oak, and certainly past Birmingham.

[GUSHI]

Nerd, Last time I went Downtown the majority of the people spending the money downtown were people from the suburbs. A line to 8 mile doesnt cut it. They need to figure it out. They can run a line up Woodward and Gratiot.

[Detroitnerd]

A 16+ mile ride on an LRT is a long ride. I can't imagine many people would take that option if they have a car and there is adequate parking closer in. Although I don't agree with jsmyers' specific routes, I think there would be a lot more benefit from adding spur lines in denser areas than in extending the Woodward line past Royal Oak, and certainly past Birmingham.

Just to reiterate, instead of small spur lines, which pose a lot of technical hurdles, we should be thinking about adding another radial line and then a crosstown line or two. Let's not get bogged down in linking little, special areas to M1. Let's think in terms of a comprehensive rapid transit system.

[GUSHI]

Without the suburbs the city is dead, and without the city the suburbs are dead.

[GUSHI]

Linking pontiac, mt. Clemens and detroit is key to the metro area survival. Rapid transit would be great. They need to do it right. Hopefully we don't fuck this up again.

[BrushStart]

The second most important line would be Michigan Ave connecting Downtown to Dearborn- two major job centers with many viable neighborhoods in-between, perfect for new residential and commercial development.

The Woodward Line extension to Royal Oak would obviously be good, but Dearborn is still a much more important/highly frequented destination. But there could be a second extension of the Woodward line, which perhaps could even be the first. That is a spur at McNichols, past University of Detroit-Mercy and Marygrove College and Sinai-Grace hospital and up the Lodge to connect to Northland, Providence Hospital, and Lawrence Tech University, as well as many office complexes.

I agree that connecting Dearborn via Michigan Ave is the next priority. When you consider what the route will accomplish, it makes complete sense. Also, I think the priority of connecting Royal Oak may even fall behind an E. Jefferson route. That said, you really have to admire how idiotic Oakland County is being. Right now, they could cough up the money to tie into Detroit's Phase 2 section at a minimal cost because everything could be studied, engineered and constructed together- it's only a 3 mile extension to Royal Oak. But, they're going to wait until everything is finished and then want to add their extension. If so, they'll have to conduct all of their own studies, hire engineers just to build 3 miles. It's plain foolishness and will surely cost more money. Why don't the mayors of Royal Oak, Ferndale, Huntington Woods, and Berkley demand that Oakland County put up for the 3 mile extension while it still makes financial sense? Beats me.

[casscorridor]

I do like jsmyers idea of building a system from the start rather than one line at a time, however I still feel like building a complete line to Dearborn makes sense for next extension of the system, because its closeness to Downtown and status as major destination. After that however, a single project could be devised to begin routes along several major corridors at the same time. Even if they are only a couple miles long each, the total would be equal to if we had just built one line. That way the routes are established and it will be clear we are building an ENTIRE regional system, not just a series of individual lines.

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd, Last time I went Downtown the majority of the people spending the money downtown were people from the suburbs. A line to 8 mile doesnt cut it. They need to figure it out. They can run a line up Woodward and Gratiot.

I think you missed my point. If you had a choice between light rail service that ran out to Gratiot and M-59 that took AN HOUR to get downtown, versus the choice of getting in your car and getting downtown in 15 minutes, which would you choose? I think it's pretty obvious that most people would drive. Light rail works best in dense areas, and it's difficult to get people to sit in a light rail vehicle for an hour to get downtown [[without something like express service, which I've only seen with heavy rail, in which case it wouldn't take an hour) when they have access to cars. What you likely want out there is dedicated commuter rail that can bring you downtown much more quickly.

Again, this is about a few things. Primarily, it should be seen as restoring the decent rapid transit service Detroit had until the 1940s, with light rail instead of streetcars. Secondarily, it encourages development along the rail lines because developers know that the powers that be are serious about committing to transit service along the line. I would like to see it go beyond Eight Mile Road, but, engineering-wise, light rail becomes less and less feasible once you start proposing taking it out to such great distances.

The idea is that when you provide quality service, you get development and activity. It is the development and the activity that brings people downtown, though often not on the light rail vehicle itself. Especially when the choice is between an hour ride or a 15-minute drive.

[esp1986]

A 15+ mile ride is not asinine. The Red and Blue lines on the CTA in Chicago are actually 30+ miles long each. Their midpoint is downtown. The Red Line is about 34 miles long, with approximately 16-17 miles on either side of the city, and it is actually slated to be expanded. The Blue Line is about 32 miles long, and is about the same deal. It runs west and northwest from downtown, with the longest ride in from the northwest being about 18 miles.

To say that a 15 mile ride downtown is too long is a little without merit. Yes, it is long, but not overkill. The only thing in Detroit that kills the feasibility of it is the sprawl. There are not many densely populated corridors in Metro Detroit, as most people are very well spread out between them. This is what kills the feasibility of a line that far out, not the distance.

[Detroitnerd]

A 15+ mile ride is not asinine. The Red and Blue lines on the CTA in Chicago are actually 30+ miles long each. Their midpoint is downtown. The Red Line is about 34 miles long, with approximately 16-17 miles on either side of the city, and it is actually slated to be expanded. The Blue Line is about 32 miles long, and is about the same deal. It runs west and northwest from downtown, with the longest ride in from the northwest being about 18 miles.

To say that a 15 mile ride downtown is too long is a little without merit. Yes, it is long, but not overkill. The only thing in Detroit that kills the feasibility of it is the sprawl. There are not many densely populated corridors in Metro Detroit, as most people are very well spread out between them. This is what kills the feasibility of a line that far out, not the distance.

Interesting. Another factor would be the ease with which you can drive to the city center. In Detroit, it's pretty easy. Maybe not so much for the Windy City.

By the way, does the CTA have express lines? Or is it just all stops on all lines?

[Hypestyles]

Michigan avenue would be great. where exactly should it stop downtown. How far into dearborn and beyond should it go? What, if anything, has the current mayor of Dearborn said about the possibility?