Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside Rail

[Vox]

A special TIF on urban planners? We seem to have a few bazillion of them around here and they love transit so much they won't mind the tax.

I like that idea. Maybe a tax on internet posting about it too? Maybe 5 cents a post...

Here's what puzzles me. Everyone speaks of speed and efficiency in the center configuration. What does the alleged stopped cars in the curb lane have anything to do with it? Would they not just be stopped by the same light anyway? I mean, hell, you can't have the trolley just barrel down Woodward, and run red lights, can you? Not only that, but the cars are able to turn on red as well.

[j to the jeremy]

I like that idea. Maybe a tax on internet posting about it too? Maybe 5 cents a post...

Here's what puzzles me. Everyone speaks of speed and efficiency in the center configuration. What does the alleged stopped cars in the curb lane have anything to do with it? Would they not just be stopped by the same light anyway? I mean, hell, you can't have the trolley just barrel down Woodward, and run red lights, can you? Not only that, but the cars are able to turn on red as well.

The traffic lights will be synced up with the train, plus most light rail lines now have override capability for traffic signals if they get ahead or behind schedule.

[szla]

Just remember the 10 acre paved parking lot next to the Scott Fountain and tell me the money is always right.

[Russix]

...
3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?
...

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

[Vox]

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

Makes more sense than most things I have read here. I like it. Improve the People Mover for Downtown, and keep it simple.

[Tig3rzhark]

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

I'd have to agree.

The People Mover would have to go counter-clockwise again, so it would be easier for Woodward Light-Rail users to get to the Rosa Parks Transit Center. The Grand Circus Park station should be made Handicap accessible again, that is important.

I know it's a little off subject, but it would be easier for DDOT and SMART to both share the Rosa Parks Transit Center. There's enough space for both bus systems to use the Transit Center.

[Vox]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

So now what? Confusion reigns now in D Town?

[j to the jeremy]

Well, here's the alignment picked by the city and the Feds:

http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...text|FRONTPAGE

It's a good compromise, let's see what M1 says...

[Detroitnerd]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

[Vox]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

If I were riding just for shits and giggles, yes. I guess you just can't make everyone happy

[jsmyers]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

Possibly, but during the cold of winter and for people who walk slowly, it will be a big help. Having that tail on there helps make extending the line down Michigan into Corktown, or down Grand River into Woodbridge a much simpler thing. Heading out Congress and Larned to the East could also connect to Jefferson and/or Gratoit. I always think about how proposals on the table now can be improved, expanded, or extended in the future. While I agree that extending the line up to 8 mile and then Royal Oak is the next priority, I think the following priority is to make a number of short extensions:

-Eastern Market
-East Riverfront [[served the Ren Cen more directly)
-Corktown [[serves the MGM)
-Woodbridge [[serves the Motor City Casino)

That roughly 6 miles of track [[compared to about 3.75 miles for this phase), but it would increase the usefulness by a factor of ten.

I wouldn't trust the papers to get all of the details right in that type of figure. I've seen a lot of mistakes over the years. But I think it looks like a sensible compromise.

[Detroitnerd]

I think the following priority is to make a number of short extensions:

-Eastern Market
-East Riverfront [[served the Ren Cen more directly)
-Corktown [[serves the MGM)
-Woodbridge [[serves the Motor City Casino)

I think shuttle buses could handle this better than building a spur off a light rail line [[that's kind of a big deal, engineering-wise, scheduling-wise and rolling stock-wise). But, once this proves to be a success, there's no reason why we couldn't restore the old streetcar routes, which included Mack and Gratiot [[Eastern Market linked from all directions), Michigan Avenue [[Corktown), Jefferson [[East Riverfront) and Grand River [[Woodbridge).

It's important to link the locations that are doing well now, but I want to stress that this shouldn't be thought of as a way to link vital locations a la People Mover, but must be part of a comprehensive, city-wide mass transit SYSTEM. Not just something that will benefit one development or one neighborhood or one casino, but something to actually provide rapid transit service.

[detroitpride313]

According to Crain's Detroit an agreement has been reached today regarding the rail and it appears as though it will be a curbside rail in some areas and a median rail in other areas.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...vestors-havent

[Detroitnerd]

According to Crain's Detroit an agreement has been reached today regarding the rail and it appears as though it will be a curbside rail in some areas and a median rail in other areas.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...vestors-havent

And so we reach our quota of needless stupidity.

[Gistok]

I can't see why Mike Ilitch would object... whether the stop in the Foxtown/Stadia area is in the middle or on the sides... you cannot get off the rail system there without being in "Ilitchville".

And I have to say... adding the rail line to the already confusing Campus Martius clusterfuck of roadways is going to be very interesting....

[kraig]

I can't believe that all of you have forgotten the golden rule. "Those who have the gold, make the rules."

[Detroitnerd]

I can't believe that all of you have forgotten the golden rule. "Those who have the gold, make the rules."

So why isn't he mayor?

[kraig]

So why isn't he mayor?

Why waste time running for a position that you already own?

[Jason]

I think this is a win, it was always figured that it would not run in the middle downtown. It looks like the compromise wasn't in the alignment in midtown, but the number of stops in midtown.

[Detroitnerd]

I pity the fool who favors curbside service.

[mwilbert]

I pity the fool who favors curbside service.

I agree, but I don't care much about the alignment south of GCP, so I can live with the foolishness if it is curbside north of that. Too many stops, but not ridiculous.

[Detroitnerd]

I agree, but I don't care much about the alignment south of GCP, so I can live with the foolishness if it is curbside north of that. Too many stops, but not ridiculous.

You do mean south of that, right?

[Red Devil]

With all those stops hopefully they will schedule some "express" trains that skip most of them once the train gets downtown

[szla]

I for one am euphoric with this compromise. Will the private money stay?

[ghettopalmetto]

I can't believe that all of you have forgotten the golden rule. "Those who have the gold, make the rules."

And in this case, the federal government is ponying up the most "gold".