Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside Rail

[j to the jeremy]

http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...bert.html#more

"In all those cities, light rail trains do indeed run next to the curb at intervals where they pass through downtown areas. What Gilbert misses is the context. All these trains mostly run on one-way downtown streets that are far smaller than Woodward. There, curbside tracks are a means to two major ends: providing trains with their own right-of-way, and narrowing the river of car traffic that pedestrians need to cross. The M1 design for Woodward does neither. Let's consider each case"

[Detroitnerd]

God, I'm so sick of these money people PLAYING at being urban planners. We want a city, not an amusement park!

[Vox]

God, I'm so sick of these money people PLAYING at being urban planners. We want a city, not an amusement park!

Yes, versus forum participants playing at being urban planners.

[j to the jeremy]

Hey, some of us are at least taking classes...

[Detroitnerd]

Many of the people on this board are or are studying at being urban planners. Which is better than Dan Gilbert and Ilitch. They want the public to fund a system that is slow and takes people to some doors and not to others. If you feel it's fine to just rubber-stamp what they want and leave the public on the hook for another People-Mover-style system, then by all means do your best to frustrate actual debate. Oh, yeah, I forgot: That's all you do here anyway, Vox.

[Gistok]

Perhaps all Vox needs is to be shown the comparisons between the 2 systems in a way that anyone can understand....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egc_M...layer_embedded

[mrpatlast]

I have to agree with Detroitnerd here. I have obtained a Masters of Urban Planning from WSU and while it does not make me the end-all be-all of planning, it does enable me to think analytically in terms of realistic end results for projects of such magnitude. I am happy that Detroit has entrepreneurs such as Illitch and Gilbert advocating for the city buy at the end of the day, they are millionaires, not planners. They should know that none of us could do their job and that they can't do ours [[planners). Hopefully the mayors office is smart enough to realize that if we fail at transit this time, it will be 20-30 years before the feds are willing to throw money at our region again. Down the center or not at all is my preference.

[Tig3rzhark]

The guy is looking for excuses to give when the project is stalled into failure. The only way curbside rail would work on Woodward, is if that there was no bicycling, or curbside parking allowed on Woodward at all.

The result you would get are 1 lane of bus traffic with light rail running alongside traffic combined with regular traffic.

The rest of the streets would be full of regular traffic.

Offering the potential for the city or private companies to take empty lots and make more parking lots.

Yeah. Gilbert either has no idea on what really would work for that street, or really doesn't care.

[Vox]

Actually I would have preferred the return route [[either way) up another street. Like Cass.

[j to the jeremy]

Actually I would have preferred the return route [[either way) up another street. Like Cass.

So just like a people mover?

[Detroitnerd]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

[Vox]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Not only would you have development on Woodward, but it would improve the length of Cass as well, given the constant drumbeat of the "development by rail" crowd.

[j to the jeremy]

Fun fact, you can still see the old streetcar tracks on Cass at MLK.

[Gistok]

[QUOTE=Vox;254288]Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Ummm once you get to the Fisher Fwy.... Cass and Woodward are about 4 blocks away from each other... Detroit's street grid is not a perfect grid...

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Not only would you have development on Woodward, but it would improve the length of Cass as well, given the constant drumbeat of the "development by rail" crowd.

Urban planners note that people are willing to walk a block or so from a rail stop, so there's no reason why Cass and John R shouldn't see an uptick in development. And elegance in design doesn't assume stupidity on the part of the public. It mitigates confusion by ... avoiding it in the first place.

[Vox]

Urban planners note that people are willing to walk a block or so from a rail stop, so there's no reason why Cass and John R shouldn't see an uptick in development. And elegance in design doesn't assume stupidity on the part of the public. It mitigates confusion by ... avoiding it in the first place.

Well Gistok is right, it can't be done.
So, I suppose that there's nothing to do other than punt. Gilbert knows best, I suppose.

[Vox]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

So now what? Confusion reigns now in D Town?

[j to the jeremy]

Well, here's the alignment picked by the city and the Feds:

http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...text|FRONTPAGE

It's a good compromise, let's see what M1 says...

[Detroitnerd]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

[Vox]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

If I were riding just for shits and giggles, yes. I guess you just can't make everyone happy

[jsmyers]

So now you'll get off at Campus Martius, walk over to Rosa Parks, and get there just in time to meet the LRV you just got off?

Possibly, but during the cold of winter and for people who walk slowly, it will be a big help. Having that tail on there helps make extending the line down Michigan into Corktown, or down Grand River into Woodbridge a much simpler thing. Heading out Congress and Larned to the East could also connect to Jefferson and/or Gratoit. I always think about how proposals on the table now can be improved, expanded, or extended in the future. While I agree that extending the line up to 8 mile and then Royal Oak is the next priority, I think the following priority is to make a number of short extensions:

-Eastern Market
-East Riverfront [[served the Ren Cen more directly)
-Corktown [[serves the MGM)
-Woodbridge [[serves the Motor City Casino)

That roughly 6 miles of track [[compared to about 3.75 miles for this phase), but it would increase the usefulness by a factor of ten.

I wouldn't trust the papers to get all of the details right in that type of figure. I've seen a lot of mistakes over the years. But I think it looks like a sensible compromise.

[Hypestyles]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

[Detroitnerd]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

[Tig3rzhark]

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

[j to the jeremy]

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

If they do, they will surely be reviled among many circles, including some in Washington.