Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside Rail

[Hypestyles]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

[Detroitnerd]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

[Tig3rzhark]

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

[j to the jeremy]

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

If they do, they will surely be reviled among many circles, including some in Washington.

[bailey]

If they do, they will surely be reviled among many circles, including some in Washington.

They have already said as much and that was 3 weeks ago [[cross post to "it WAS nice to dream for a second" thread).... and no one is saying boo about it.

Private money on the line: Woodward rail donors wait for layout they like

By Bill Shea

Until an accord is reached on critical aspects of the Woodward light-rail line, a consortium of private-sector donors who have pledged $100 million toward the project's $528 million capital costs won't commit any money.

"We'll wait to see if there's a project that makes sense and is viable. Then we'll be prepared to invest," said Matt Cullen, CEO of M1 Rail, the coalition of project financial backers who mainly favor a curbside alignment for the line rather than the median-running layout apparently preferred by the city.

And until the debate is resolved, the $100 million exists largely as just a series of informal "soft" commitments from donors, some of which have lapsed because the 9.3-mile, streetcar-style line between Hart Plaza and Eight Mile Road still remains in the planning stages.

"It isn't like this money was in a box," Cullen said.

The M1 money accounts for 47 percent of the project's $210 million required local match needed to leverage $318 million in federal funding to build the line.

The impasse over the line's alignment -- M1 Rail prefers slower curbside service that delivers people to the sidewalk, while the Detroit Department of Transportation is pushing for a purely center-of-street line that travels at higher speeds -- continues behind the scenes, sources familiar with the situation told Crain's.

Until those details are resolved, M1 Rail isn't going to firm up its financing commitment, Cullen said, nor will the group commit money to a project that it doesn't philosophically agree with.

Cullen is quick to add that he expects the city and M1, along with the Federal Transit Administration staffers advising DDOT on the project, to come to an accord.

"Everybody on our side of the project wants it to happen and will be reasonably flexible about it," he said, adding that preliminary plans for a mostly median-running line have begun to circulate in recent weeks, and project engineering is only about 10 percent complete.

"All the funders, including the city, M1 and FTA, have to have a project they're all comfortable with," he said, noting that the line will be a hybrid curbside-median layout that will likely loop west to include the Rosa Parks Transit Center at Cass and Michigan avenues.

Continued at: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...yout-they-like [[Google the headline and click on the first link for the full article.)

[j to the jeremy]

I have been told by a good source that that article was out of date when it was published. There will probably be some compromise reached. Cullen is a Gilbert guy so he's keeping the party line.

I wonder how much the M1 people understand the principles at work, and how many M1 folks are really just there to sabotage the whole project for GM and Ford?

[Detroitnerd]

I wonder how much the M1 people understand the principles at work, and how many M1 folks are really just there to sabotage the whole project for GM and Ford?

I don't know that this would be out-and-out sabotage. I think it has more to do with a total lack of understanding of cities on the part of the die-hard money-men. They want it to be an amusement park ride to lure people to their destinations, at the expense of speed, transit-oriented development and common sense. And I believe "coming to an accord" means accepting their idiotic design in some way.

[professorscott]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

1. The final recommendation will be made by the project engineers, and DDOT is the implementing agency so to some extent DDOT gets to make the final decision. Because of the importance of the project, I suspect DDOT is going to decide whatever Mayor Bing tells it to decide, so realistically this is the Mayor's call. If the City attempts to go around the engineering recommendation, whatever that is, it will be less likely to get the project funded.

2. The private-money investors have not made an open-ended pledge that they would support whatever the City decides to build. It will be interesting to see what happens if the final recommendation is for a center-running system.

3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?

That's been the sticking point for a long time now: Gilbert, Ilitch, Penske et al. are interested in the curbside system, and the City isn't. So we'll see what we get out of project engineering and let the feathers fly!

[Det_ard]

3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?

A special TIF on urban planners? We seem to have a few bazillion of them around here and they love transit so much they won't mind the tax.

[Vox]

A special TIF on urban planners? We seem to have a few bazillion of them around here and they love transit so much they won't mind the tax.

I like that idea. Maybe a tax on internet posting about it too? Maybe 5 cents a post...

Here's what puzzles me. Everyone speaks of speed and efficiency in the center configuration. What does the alleged stopped cars in the curb lane have anything to do with it? Would they not just be stopped by the same light anyway? I mean, hell, you can't have the trolley just barrel down Woodward, and run red lights, can you? Not only that, but the cars are able to turn on red as well.

[j to the jeremy]

I like that idea. Maybe a tax on internet posting about it too? Maybe 5 cents a post...

Here's what puzzles me. Everyone speaks of speed and efficiency in the center configuration. What does the alleged stopped cars in the curb lane have anything to do with it? Would they not just be stopped by the same light anyway? I mean, hell, you can't have the trolley just barrel down Woodward, and run red lights, can you? Not only that, but the cars are able to turn on red as well.

The traffic lights will be synced up with the train, plus most light rail lines now have override capability for traffic signals if they get ahead or behind schedule.

[Russix]

...
3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?
...

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

[Vox]

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

Makes more sense than most things I have read here. I like it. Improve the People Mover for Downtown, and keep it simple.

[Tig3rzhark]

I think the route could be shorten and the private investors dumped. You can still sell naming and advertising rights to stations. Everything below GCP should be scrapped. Track narrows to a single track before crossing Fisher Fwy, train pulls into station, conductor gets out and walks to the reverse cab to drive the train up Woodward. Plus downtown is already served by a circulating system.
Also in the interest of cutting costs to get the thing off the ground, put plans for track north of McNichols into a future phase of the project, potentially extending it further north than 8 mile. M1 will never fly, the city and the federal government are on the hook for $10 million a year in operating costs. So cutting costs and finding more money are really the only future for DTOGS as M-1 has always been DOA. The city has about $75 million scheduled for this[[grants and DDOT), $27 million from selling station rights, $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority. So if the costs of Phase I can be wrung into around $300 million we can stop worring about names like Cullen or Gilbert.

I'd have to agree.

The People Mover would have to go counter-clockwise again, so it would be easier for Woodward Light-Rail users to get to the Rosa Parks Transit Center. The Grand Circus Park station should be made Handicap accessible again, that is important.

I know it's a little off subject, but it would be easier for DDOT and SMART to both share the Rosa Parks Transit Center. There's enough space for both bus systems to use the Transit Center.