Rick Snyder to announce sweeping DPS reforms Monday

[DetroitTeacher]

HAHAHA, yeah...I am one of the honest folks out here who doesn't believe in letting kids cheat just to make ME look better! I'd rather have a kid fail honestly than pass with dishonesty. I don't think DC is in much better shape [[in all reality) than DPS. Rhee talks good game but look at the cost...kids cheating [[or adults cheating for the kids). What in the world is that teaching the kids?

Raising standardized test scores is a snap — just follow the example of Michelle Rhee's high achieving schools in Washington, DC.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...terstitialskip

[Zacha341]

Yeah, what-up with that? No one seems to answer this question because the district is going away, therefore there's no bottoming-out process in by which to spring back from! I think it's called death by a thousand and one cuts...

Where's the money coming from to pay off DPS's existing deficit? Each new proposal talks about shrinking the school district but no explanation of how a district with fewer students and less money is going to be able to pay off the existing deficit.

[detmsp]

Business usually works with non-breathing product. Our "products" are human beings. Litle harder to tell who is putting things together or actually producing results when there are so many variables involved. Education can not possibly foresee all of the variables like business can. We are working with flawed materials [[there are very few instances where the material we begin with isn't flawed in some way). I don't know how anyone expects us to make miracles happen with all we have to deal with [[but we keep trying to make those miracles happen).

Doctors don't even have it this bad. If a doctor is ineffective, his patient stays ill or dies. It's easy to see who the idiot doctors are. It's not as evident with teachers. Try as I might to raise test scores, I simply can't do it with: cognitively impaired, severely learning disabled, kids who bring the abuse they suffer at home to school with them, kids who just don't give a crap, kids who don't show up [[hell, at least a crappy doctor can get sick people into the office to be seen), the young mother who has no daycare [[yes, there is CFA but many can't get there), kids who have to take care of their ill parent./grandparent/younger siblings and is up all night and dead tired the next day...I think you get the picture.

My kids show improvement through the year, master most of the concepts I put out there [[ask them and they can tell you exactly what they've learned) but, try as I might, those damned test scores are still a thorn in my side. If you ask my principal, she can tell you that I am an effective teacher even though test scores aren't going up [[not like the powers that be would like them to). I just don't have the tools needed to do my job effectively [[unless I go out and buy them myself and they usually disappear through the year).

So the kids present all kinds of intangibles that make test scores alone a poor way to judge your performance, but your leadership has a good idea of you perform anyway. That completely lines up with my comment of having leadership, not test scores, determine teacher performance and hand out raises. I feel like you're arguing with me by reiterating exactly what I said!

[detmsp]

That's not really true, now is it?

Most businesses have some objective method of determining effectiveness, so that employees can tell how they are doing long before the axe is swung. The standard for businesses is to have measurable objectives for employees. Employees have always, unionized or not, been able to bring to management's attention when they do not have the proper tools for the job. Any business that hopes to survive and prosper will take such concerns into consideration and try their hardest to ensure employees are properly trained and equipped, and that obstacles to performance [[that are beyond the employee's control) are removed. That's standard behavior for effective business leaders.

I don't think any respectable business or business leader anywhere would agree that they just remove employees they "feel" are not performing. They would swear that they have some objective and fair means for measuring effectiveness. That's all people are asking here. what would be fair, reliable and objective measurements.

It is a reasonable question and an important one, especially as principals are given more authority and autonomy.

No, it is true. My performance at work is scored annually by my manager, but that score does not come from some formula or metrics. It's totally subjective. My score is not determined by some formula, a test or anything like that. It's purely based on how my manager feels I've done at achieving my goals for the year [[and those goals are totally subjective and not quantifiable). And I work at a fortune 40 company, so its not like I work at some tiny company run by a guy who doesn't get how REAL businesses run.

There are some jobs were people get judged on metrics [[ie sales people) but every company has plenty of employees who can't and shouldn't be judged that way. Teachers are the same way.

[DetroitTeacher]

You business leadership is unique. Most business runs in quantitative measures, the number of non-flawed products it puts out. Most people are not evaluated subjectively.

No, it is true. My performance at work is scored annually by my manager, but that score does not come from some formula or metrics. It's totally subjective. My score is not determined by some formula, a test or anything like that. It's purely based on how my manager feels I've done at achieving my goals for the year [[and those goals are totally subjective and not quantifiable). And I work at a fortune 40 company, so its not like I work at some tiny company run by a guy who doesn't get how REAL businesses run.

There are some jobs were people get judged on metrics [[ie sales people) but every company has plenty of employees who can't and shouldn't be judged that way. Teachers are the same way.

[Det_ard]

Business usually works with non-breathing product. Our "products" are human beings. Litle harder to tell who is putting things together or actually producing results when there are so many variables involved. Education can not possibly foresee all of the variables like business can. We are working with flawed materials [[there are very few instances where the material we begin with isn't flawed in some way). I don't know how anyone expects us to make miracles happen with all we have to deal with [[but we keep trying to make those miracles happen.

Actually most businesses and most business people deal with other people. More people work in service businesses than manufacturing businesses. And within those manufacturing businesses, many employees, managers and executives don't deal directly with products. They work in more intangible fields like marketing, sales, finance, accounting, planning, engineering, R&D, and other non-manufacturing areas where their "output" isn't physical.

Take a typical salesperson. Sure, they can be measured by their performance [[sales), but they deal with a variety of variables that aren't under their control but that can affect their performance. How large is their territory? How much time do they have to spend driving versus talking to customers? How many competitors are there in their area? For each competitor, how competitve is their product/service? How competitive is their pricing? How sophisticated is the competition? How sophisticated are their customers? Large companies or mom-n-pops? How well capitalized are their customers and competitors? Does the competition produce their product locally or in a lower-cost area? Is the salesperson required to offer a broader product line than there co-workers or competitors? Do their customers demand more after-sale service, or pre-sale consultation than the customers of their co-workers? How much support do you get from your manager? How much training?

You can run through the challenges inherent in any other aspect of business and you'll find similar variability and inability to control external factors which impact your success relative to your co-workers and your competition. I think you have a limited view of what business entails and have based your view that teaching is unique and unmeasureable on that limited understanding of what others have been able to do given similar measurement challenges. Given its importance, the world of education needs to step up and be accountable.

[Locke09]

You business leadership is unique. Most business runs in quantitative measures, the number of non-flawed products it puts out. Most people are not evaluated subjectively.

Yea. I'm not buying that a fortune 40 company gives employees truly subjective evaluations. If they do, they are indeed unique. I've been at the executive/management level for a long time and if any of the supervisors or managers who report to me turned in an evaluation of their staff that didn't include quantifiable measures, with supporting documentation if their rating is outside of normal ranges, I would demote them.

In fact, they'd better have identified those measures prior to the period that is being rated. They'd better have some means of collecting information that verifies accomplishments or failures.

Everybody can be judged on metrics. If someone says they cannot, then that person doesn't need to have anyone working for them. They are just being too lazy to identify and create the metrics. I know what I'm talking about. I'm very good at this. Even if a person worked at a dry cleaners, I could create metrics for them.

Just because one fortune 40 company is too lazy to create objective means of evaluating their employees and leave them subject to the whims of a supervisor or manager doesn't mean everyone else should be subjected to that.

[maxx]

To return to Snyder's plan for DPS:

http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

"As Eastern Michigan University's Board of Regents voted Tuesday to take part in a new school district to reform Michigan's worst performing schools, faculty leaders promised not to do any work in Detroit that might help bust union contracts..."

[Locke09]

In evaluating employees, there are ways to reduce the impact of things that are outside of the employee's control.

Sometimes a business knows that employees in one sector face challenges unfaced by employees in another sector, so their performance targets are different.

Sometimes you just remove anomalies or adjust for anomalies. For instance, out of 10 projects an employee didn't complete one on time. But the project was put on hold by management. So that project should not be included in that employee's evaluation.

If I were a teacher and student performance was part of my evaluation, I would want a few things first. I would want every student in my class to have an IQ test to ensure there isn't some other reason they cannot perform. I would want my rating adjusted if any part of it is based on the performance of a student that I can document hasn't been in class sufficiently to learn or hasn't been turning in homework.

I think it's fair because you are evaluating someone on the basis of the accomplishments of someone else. No, it isn't the same in business where a supervisor is evaluated in part on the success of their employees. Supervisors can get rid of low performing employees. Teachers cannot get rid of low performing students. If an employee refuses to work, they are fired. If a student refuses to work they receive an F, which will now make the teacher look bad.

[Det_ard]

To return to Snyder's plan for DPS:

http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

"As Eastern Michigan University's Board of Regents voted Tuesday to take part in a new school district to reform Michigan's worst performing schools, faculty leaders promised not to do any work in Detroit that might help bust union contracts..."

Faculty leaders promise not to try something that might improve education in Detroit if it hurts the union. That's all you need to know.

Too many educators care more about the adults, or the union, than the kids.

[Novine]

" I think you have a limited view of what business entails and have based your view that teaching is unique and unmeasureable on that limited understanding of what others have been able to do given similar measurement challenges."

The flaw is in the underlying assumption that the private sector does a better job of evaluating and rewarding good employees and reforming or firing bad employees. The reality is that there's just as many deadweights and non-performers in the private sector in businesses of all sizes as one finds in the public sector. There are bad employees all around and too often, they are tolerated and even promoted in the private sector as often as people claim it happens in the public sector.

[detmsp]

Yea. I'm not buying that a fortune 40 company gives employees truly subjective evaluations. If they do, they are indeed unique. I've been at the executive/management level for a long time and if any of the supervisors or managers who report to me turned in an evaluation of their staff that didn't include quantifiable measures, with supporting documentation if their rating is outside of normal ranges, I would demote them.

In fact, they'd better have identified those measures prior to the period that is being rated. They'd better have some means of collecting information that verifies accomplishments or failures.

Everybody can be judged on metrics. If someone says they cannot, then that person doesn't need to have anyone working for them. They are just being too lazy to identify and create the metrics. I know what I'm talking about. I'm very good at this. Even if a person worked at a dry cleaners, I could create metrics for them.

Just because one fortune 40 company is too lazy to create objective means of evaluating their employees and leave them subject to the whims of a supervisor or manager doesn't mean everyone else should be subjected to that.

I don't know if you misunderstood me or what. I never said that managers don't provide supporting evidence for the scores they give. They most certainly do. My review includes information about the projects I worked on and will definitely include quantifiable information such as cost savings or productivity gains that were realized as a result of the projects I worked on. But these numbers are not plugged into some formula to get a score. The score comes from my manager and his peers collectively deciding how they feel I did based on the evidence provided by my manager. So the score is not based on nothing and it is not subject to some managers whims, but it is most definitely not a straight up measurement of performance metrics.

[English]

Faculty leaders promise not to try something that might improve education in Detroit if it hurts the union. That's all you need to know.

Too many educators care more about the adults, or the union, than the kids.

No, the main issue is that the faculty in question didn't even know about their role until the press release. I know that many people in our fair region and nation don't think that professors actually have to work, but to take on a project of this scale in addition to their other duties without having been consulted about it at all before a grandiose national announcement was made is -- there are actually no words for it. Anyone in any field would be at least mildly annoyed. For university faculty, it is beyond the pale.

[DetroitTeacher]

Thank you! That pretty much sums up everything that teachers feel. I have kids in my class who don't show up [[and repeated phone calls home yield no change), kids who have impairments that I am not qualified to deal with [[we can't know how to deal with EVEY kid, each with unique issues), kids who show up every day but turn in nothing [[I can't do much with a kid who refuses to help themselves). Teachers have to try and teach everyone. I wish we could get rid of the kids who only show up to cause problems or the kids who really don't want to be there and do nothing all day. I really can't force a kid to do work or to learn. I really don't want to be judged based on their performance. Come and sit in my class and you'll see that I am doing my level best against many barriers.

In evaluating employees, there are ways to reduce the impact of things that are outside of the employee's control.

Sometimes a business knows that employees in one sector face challenges unfaced by employees in another sector, so their performance targets are different.

Sometimes you just remove anomalies or adjust for anomalies. For instance, out of 10 projects an employee didn't complete one on time. But the project was put on hold by management. So that project should not be included in that employee's evaluation.

If I were a teacher and student performance was part of my evaluation, I would want a few things first. I would want every student in my class to have an IQ test to ensure there isn't some other reason they cannot perform. I would want my rating adjusted if any part of it is based on the performance of a student that I can document hasn't been in class sufficiently to learn or hasn't been turning in homework.

I think it's fair because you are evaluating someone on the basis of the accomplishments of someone else. No, it isn't the same in business where a supervisor is evaluated in part on the success of their employees. Supervisors can get rid of low performing employees. Teachers cannot get rid of low performing students. If an employee refuses to work, they are fired. If a student refuses to work they receive an F, which will now make the teacher look bad.

[Locke09]

Faculty leaders promise not to try something that might improve education in Detroit if it hurts the union. That's all you need to know.

Too many educators care more about the adults, or the union, than the kids.

I am unable to comprehend why we tend to paint things as an "either or" situation so often. Caring about yourself and caring about the kids are not two mutually exclusive things. Teachers can care about the kids and also care about their own well-being and the well-being of their family. I know a lot of teachers, from brand new teachers completing their first year of teaching, to those planning on retiring at the end of this school year. I know how much they care, the sacrifices they make, the way they worry over their kids who come from challenging situations and the way they worry for their own futures.

[Wesley Mouch]

Um, here's one little snag in their plan:

Eastern Michigan faculty side with teachers' unions, refuse to work in Detroit schools

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011106220413

Here's the kicker:

"EMU faculty members didn't learnabout the EAS until Monday morning from a news release, union President Susan Moeller said at the Tuesday meeting."
...

Stop telling me these "reformers" know what they're doing. This is a hot stinking pile of mess.

EMU's comment: "Martin also said there was no intent to bust the teachers union or to exclude the faculty union from the process."

Let them try to help the people of Detroit educate their kids, please.

[[btw, this has been a really good debate on the forum, for the most part. Some great comments, with only a few descents into posturing and defending turf.)

[English]

EMU's comment: "Martin also said there was no intent to bust the teachers union or to exclude the faculty union from the process."

Martin is giving the only answer possible, since she has egg on her face now. Go talk with the EMU faculty... this isn't the first issue they've had with administration lately.

College and university faculty aren't just teaching. Even those of us who are new have a half dozen or more research, writing, and consulting projects going on in addition to institutional service. You can't just tell people they're expected to save the world in a completely different city, field, and paradigm without asking them how, when, and within what timeframe. You especially can't tell professors in a field that you've got it all figured out and all they must do is implement your ideas.

Of course the public response is "we're not going to help bust the DFT." However, that is not the main reason for the refusal, and I'd be willing to bet on it. They're insulted because you just don't do this.

[English]

I'm also ready to write a "cool it" article about professionals in K-16 education not being in it for the kids. Teachers do more for kids, and professors do more for undergrads/young adults, than anyone in any profession in the United States today. We not only do more professionally, we do more on a volunteer basis -- check out children's, teen, and young adult service organizations and look at the profession of those who are doing the unpaid work because they enjoy it. That isn't even counting before and after school activities and organizations, not to mention job training opportunities in higher ed.

No one gives a tinker's d*mn if you think we don't care about "our kids"/"our students." Most adults find large groups of youngsters draining; I get energy from interacting with and mentoring those in the next generations, and so do the majority of educators I know. In my experience, in many cases [[especially in the City of Detroit), we can tolerate young people, and far more of them for more time on end, than most people can, including some of their own parents and guardians. Some educators want acknowledgment and praise for this; I never cared about that. But I will call out an egregious lie about my colleagues and their motives, and I will call it out every time.

One of the many reasons why we will continue to press the issue is because those who insist "it's about the kids" don't even like being around kids. In contrast, the reputation of the EMU education faculty precedes them. These people interact with, deal with, and influence more kids than most people will ever get to do in a lifetime, both directly and indirectly through their students. Their detractors need to stop dictating and begin productive dialogue.

[bartock]

I'm also ready to write a "cool it" article about professionals in K-16 education not being in it for the kids. Teachers do more for kids, and professors do more for undergrads/young adults, than anyone in any profession in the United States today. We not only do more professionally, we do more on a volunteer basis -- check out children's, teen, and young adult service organizations and look at the profession of those who are doing the unpaid work because they enjoy it. That isn't even counting before and after school activities and organizations, not to mention job training opportunities in higher ed.

No one gives a tinker's d*mn if you think we don't care about "our kids"/"our students." Most adults find large groups of youngsters draining; I get energy from interacting with and mentoring those in the next generations, and so do the majority of educators I know. In my experience, in many cases [[especially in the City of Detroit), we can tolerate young people, and far more of them for more time on end, than most people can, including some of their own parents and guardians. Some educators want acknowledgment and praise for this; I never cared about that. But I will call out an egregious lie about my colleagues and their motives, and I will call it out every time.

One of the many reasons why we will continue to press the issue is because those who insist "it's about the kids" don't even like being around kids. In contrast, the reputation of the EMU education faculty precedes them. These people interact with, deal with, and influence more kids than most people will ever get to do in a lifetime, both directly and indirectly through their students. Their detractors need to stop dictating and begin productive dialogue.

"Teachers do more for kids, and professors do more for undergrads/young adults, than anyone in any profession in the United States today."

Please, tell that to my wife, who stays at home as a full-time mother, which IS truly a 24/7 profession. You will find this hard to believe, but she works much, much harder, and for much less pay, than you [[or me).

"...those who insist 'it's about the kids' don't even like being around kids." Seriously?

What prompted the martydom? I don't see much criticism of the EMU faculty here, so without some source it just looks like an excuse to pat your back under the guise of defending others. And, under any circumstance, no "cool it" instructions are warranted. I would hope and expect that teachers and professors CHOSE their profession for the right reasons, and understand that their bosses - the taxpayers who fund public universities and schools - are interested in accountability and can voice concerns.

[Hypestyles]

State colleges and universities should be ‘adopting’ Detroit city schools and managing them with specialized curriculums such as medical science, physics/engineering, information technology, accounting/finance, and more [[with the understanding that upon graduation they would already have some transferable college credits.) They can send students majoring in these studies to help out Detroit schools.

[Locke09]

What prompted the martydom? I don't see much criticism of the EMU faculty here, so without some source it just looks like an excuse to pat your back under the guise of defending others. And, under any circumstance, no "cool it" instructions are warranted. I would hope and expect that teachers and professors CHOSE their profession for the right reasons, and understand that their bosses - the taxpayers who fund public universities and schools - are interested in accountability and can voice concerns.

"Keep EMU Professors out of Detroit Schools"
http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...etroit-Schools

Everyone should have a right to voice concerns in an effort to see that the plan that is developed is the best that it reasonably can be. That includes educators, parents, children, taxpayers - everyone. People who have concerns should voice them early.

This shouldn't have to be a win-lose situation. I only heard EMU professors saying, "We will help, but we won't be used as a ploy to bust the unions, and we should be allowed to take part in structuring the nature of that help."

I know several young people who teach at charter schools. The universities that charter those schools hold training sessions before the beginning of the school year and throughout the school year, that those teachers must attend. I assumed that this is what EMU was going to be asked to do. Those universities also give tuition discounts [[for continuing education, additional certifications and work on post-grad degrees) to teachers who teach at the schools they charter. Hopefully EMU will do this as well.

Why can't they say they'll do all those things but not help with displacing any teachers? Why do we assume the only way the kids will win is if the teachers lose?

[English]

"Teachers do more for kids, and professors do more for undergrads/young adults, than anyone in any profession in the United States today."

Please, tell that to my wife, who stays at home as a full-time mother, which IS truly a 24/7 profession. You will find this hard to believe, but she works much, much harder, and for much less pay, than you [[or me).

As the daughter and sister of stay at home moms who witnessed that sacrifice, forgive me, but please. I mentioned PROFESSIONS. It's not stay at home mothers who are engaged in these politically motivated, wicked attacks. Neither are homemakers the problem here -- it's parents who want to foist the responsibility for their kids' failures on someone other than themselves, and those with an agenda.

There's nothing wrong with people working in education patting themselves on the back. Every other bleeping profession does it. Being humble and silent and keeping our heads down is getting us screwed over. Just because I'd rather work with young people than others doesn't mean that I am a martyr or a saint. I'm d*mned good at what I do, that's all. And like most professionals, I'm not an interchangeable cog.

Why so sensitive? Sounds as if you think all teachers are just in it for the paycheck, too.

[English]

"Keep EMU Professors out of Detroit Schools"
http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...etroit-Schools

Everyone should have a right to voice concerns in an effort to see that the plan that is developed is the best that it reasonably can be. That includes educators, parents, children, taxpayers - everyone. People who have concerns should voice them early.

This shouldn't have to be a win-lose situation. I only heard EMU professors saying, "We will help, but we won't be used as a ploy to bust the unions, and we should be allowed to take part in structuring the nature of that help."

I know several young people who teach at charter schools. The universities that charter those schools hold training sessions before the beginning of the school year and throughout the school year, that those teachers must attend. I assumed that this is what EMU was going to be asked to do. Those universities also give tuition discounts [[for continuing education, additional certifications and work on post-grad degrees) to teachers who teach at the schools they charter. Hopefully EMU will do this as well.

Why can't they say they'll do all those things but not help with displacing any teachers? Why do we assume the only way the kids will win is if the teachers lose?

I am sure that the EMU faculty would have gladly assisted had they been consulted about it first. Why on earth doesn't anyone on DYes get that?

Speaking of charter schools, would you like to know how many worried charter school teachers I've had in my office this school year? Excellent professionals with proven results whose self-esteem and emotional health is suffering because they keep getting let go for no reason at all?

Further dialogue around this issue seems pointless. I am simply outdone, and done with this thread. No wonder this region, not to mention this nation, is going to hell in a handbasket.

[bartock]

As the daughter and sister of stay at home moms who witnessed that sacrifice, forgive me, but please. I mentioned PROFESSIONS. It's not stay at home mothers who are engaged in these politically motivated, wicked attacks. Neither are homemakers the problem here -- it's parents who want to foist the responsibility for their kids' failures on someone other than themselves, and those with an agenda.

There's nothing wrong with people working in education patting themselves on the back. Every other bleeping profession does it. Being humble and silent and keeping our heads down is getting us screwed over. Just because I'd rather work with young people than others doesn't mean that I am a martyr or a saint. I'm d*mned good at what I do, that's all. And like most professionals, I'm not an interchangeable cog.

Why so sensitive? Sounds as if you think all teachers are just in it for the paycheck, too.

A profession is a vocation. I consider stay at home parenting to be a profession. Doing it right takes more time, patience, skill and knowledge than most others.

It would very dumb of me to believe that all teachers are just in it for the paycheck. Like all professions, there are those that are good, those that are bad, and those that are in-between. I don't pat the backs of or defend any of my fellow what-I-do ers, though it is certainly your right to do so, as it is mine to comment on it.

[Locke09]

I am sure that the EMU faculty would have gladly assisted had they been consulted about it first. Why on earth doesn't anyone on DYes get that?

Speaking of charter schools, would you like to know how many worried charter school teachers I've had in my office this school year? Excellent professionals with proven results whose self-esteem and emotional health is suffering because they keep getting let go for no reason at all?

Further dialogue around this issue seems pointless. I am simply outdone, and done with this thread. No wonder this region, not to mention this nation, is going to hell in a handbasket.

I think I didn't word my post clearly enough. I was responding to the statement that there had been no criticism of EMU professors. I knew that there had been scathing criticism so I posted that link.

I have no problem with the professors saying they will not be used to bust unions, and getting that out there early in case anyone has that on their minds. I don't think it means they don't want to help the children and that is why I said it doesn't have to be the win-lose proposition that people are framing it to be.

I hope you aren't finished with this thread and others like it. We're going to hell in a handbasket because too many people are not willing to go against "prevailing wisdom" at the same time that they are accusing others of being resistant to change. Any change that cannot be questioned and challenged is suspect in my opinion.