Rick Snyder to announce sweeping DPS reforms Monday

[Hypestyles]

so is the public invited to comment on how this new consortium will operate?

[Locke09]

Skepticism is good. Obstruction is not.

Neither is the philosophy that "any change is better than what we have." Neither is the philosophy that we should just keep giving people a chance to experiment with our kids.

We should always demand answers to legitimate questions. And we should "get in the way" if those answers are not forthcoming, don't make sense, or appear to make things worse. I'm not saying this is the case here. We don't have any details yet, so this is the perfect time to ask the hard questions and raise the legitimate issues, so that the answers to those questions and issues can become part of the plan.

You see, most people will not have a problem with change if it is well-defined, does not lead to them being disenfranchised and is motivated by nothing other than a desire to make things better for everyone [[or at least the most people). Haphazard change is another issue and this is what people fear more than simple "change" itself. "How" matters as much as "What". Failure to see that is what leads to failed proposal after failed proposal.

If the answer to the debt is "more bonds", taxpayers should know what this new beast is going to look like before they approve any new bonds. Or does this new EM stuff also allow them to stick us with new taxes without our vote?

[professorscott]

Remember it was perhaps our greatest Democrat president, Franklin Roosevelt, who called for "bold, persistent experimentation". I am astonished that people are complaining that these changes amount to "experimenting with our kids". True, but DPS has been experimenting with our kids for decades and persistently failing at it.

I would say a new "experiment" that has any positive chance of success, however small, has got to be better than the old experiment which is proven to have zero chance of success, "success" defined as "most kids in DPS are getting a quality education".

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

[Det_ard]

Can you explain within the context of DPS how this comes into play? What reform ideas has DPS or Robert Bobb not been able to implement because the unions resisted progressive ideas?

Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach.

[maxx]

Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach.

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

[Det_ard]

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

I wouldn't just use tests to measure teachers. I'd use a variety of methods, and leave it up to highly educated educators to devise the best method of evaluation. Surely the vast academic-educational complex is able to develop ways to sort the wheat from the chaff. Tests aren't all bad though, they're good enough for teachers to use them to evaluate students.

Or, alternatively, we could ignore what parents, other teachers, administrators and even students know and treat all teachers as if they're all the same. Sure, it dooms a portion of our children to mediocrity or worse every year, but since when is K-12 all about the kids anyway? God forbid we do something that might not be executed perfectly in our pursuit of a great education for every kid.

[Kevgoblue]

The schools aren't the problem. Schools are just buildings. Four walls with a bunch of desks and chairs. What about the 5,000 lb gorilla in the room......parental involvement?

Many have rightly addressed the downright failures associated with previous state takeovers. That is because having different buildings or different administrators or different service providers really has minimal effect on the learning process.

When speaking of kids getting a good education in DPS, most are referring to Renaissance or Cass. Schools that require an admission process to enter. A process that ensures that the kids have an existing history of academic achievement, normal attendance rates and letters of recomendation.
But how to address the kids which come from an enviornment of extreme poverty. Or those that have parents with a myriad of social and / or dependancy problems. Those kids whose parents don't really care if they go to school or not.

A new authority board from EMU will most likely be drastically more effective than Reverand David Murray in establishing standards for schools and meeting budgets. But how will they reach out to help the disproportionately high number of at risk students which attend DPS?

[Locke09]

Remember it was perhaps our greatest Democrat president, Franklin Roosevelt, who called for "bold, persistent experimentation". I am astonished that people are complaining that these changes amount to "experimenting with our kids". True, but DPS has been experimenting with our kids for decades and persistently failing at it.

I would say a new "experiment" that has any positive chance of success, however small, has got to be better than the old experiment which is proven to have zero chance of success, "success" defined as "most kids in DPS are getting a quality education".

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

Well Roosevelt was talking about the economy. You can tweak the economy every week or every day if you need to. If you fail, you're just talking about money, which can be recovered with some more tweaking.

When it comes to children and education, you cannot just try new things every couple years and if they fail say, "Oh well, let's try something else". Educators of young children can tell you that just a few years of poor schooling can turn a child off from education forever, or set them so far behind that it will take great heroics for them to catch up.

I am an advocate for change - orderly and meaningful change. Change that is well-planned, well-defined, analyzed to ensure best likelihood of sucess, risks determined and backup plans identified, measurements that tell us early whether we are being successful and need to make modifications. That's why I continue to say I am reserving judgment because the devil will be in the details.

However, I also strongly advocate the asking of questions and the raising of issues during this phase, before people think they have a plan etched in stone, that they will be reluctant to change even if you tell them the emperor is naked [[e.g. as it was with Robert Bobb).

I believe anyone confident in their ability to properly execute change will not have any problem having their ideas challenged - even facing skepticism. They will welcome the opportunity to make their plan even better. If a person cannot stand being questioned, they cannot have my respect.

This isn't a DPS vs. the "New Education Deal" issue. This is just people asking for clarification of the New Deal and how it will address some systemic issues that could cause even the most well-intentioned efforts to fail.

Forget DPS.This new plan should be able to stand or fall on its own merit, not stand only if compared to DPS. That's too easy and a cop-out.

[maxx]

Educators of young children can tell you that just a few years of poor schooling can turn a child off from education forever,...

And what constitutes poor schooling to a child? Some kids have a hard time just sitting at a desk for more than five minutes. Some kids learn intimidation games from older siblings and practice them on schoolmates. Having to stop such games or having to share with others can really make school no fun to some kids. Having any kind of discipline imposed on them from anyone other than their parents can turn some kids off from school. Some kids have problems focusing on school work. Keeping a kid on task can really make school a drag for these kids. Some kids lose their workbooks. Kids whose parents had bad school experiences are more likely to come to school with negative attitudes towards school and /or teachers. So how many Detroit parents fill that criterion? These are behaviors I've observed in suburban elementary schools. I can only imagine what it's like in DPS.

[English]

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

PM me and we'll have coffee.

I trust my colleagues at EMU. I know the ones in my field and subfields, and trust their professional judgment. But for offline circumstances this week, you guys would get a screenful of text from me, as usual.

I do hope this is the ticket. The eyes of the nation will be on Detroit. However, yes, I am skeptical because we do not have the political will or the social capital to do what needs to be done.

[Novine]

"Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach."

All of these have been proposed by Bobb or DPS and been blocked by the teachers union in Detroit schools?

[Locke09]

maxx,

When I say poor schooling, I am certainly not talking about whether or not a child perceives school as "fun". But you did say, "to a child", didn't you? Well I'll think back to what I considered good or poor schooling, and comments my own kids have made throughout their school years.

Poor schooling: I am talking about whether or not the child perceives school as a place where they are truly learning and where they can be successful. Is their curriculum substandard or do they feel they are learning what their peers at other schools are learning? Do they find that they have been taught enough to do well on standardized tests? Are they constantly being told their schools are at the bottom of the barrel? Can their school meet the needs of not only the child who is in the normal range, but the fast learners and slow learners as well, so that all feel some measure of success? Do the teachers and administrators seem to care? Are the tools they need available [[books, technology, etc.) Oh and I really hated inflexible, pedantic teachers and one of my kids picked up that same tendency. But there were enough teachers who "got me" and provided me with extra challenges [[even though it made more work for them) so that the occasional teacher who just wanted me to be normal didn't leave me with any negative attitude towards school. Same with my kid.

And I am talking about whether or not the child perceives school as a safe place. Can they concentrate on learning while they are there? Not just physical safety either, but also emotional safety. Is there so much uncertainty that they don't even know where they will be next year? Are they bounced around from place to place and curriculum to curriculum and philosophy to philosophy?

But since you bring it up, there's also no reason school has to be a complete bore. Good teachers find ways to make at least some portion of their lessons fun and meaningful. They find ways to engage their students and allow them to be active, not just listeners. And students benefit from non-academic activities as well: music, arts, sports, etc.

The other kids with situations you mentioned might not like school, but those situations were not what I was thinking of. Although they are issues that can affect education success.

As I've said, parental involvement, family issues, economic issues and cultural issues will all impact any efforts to improve education. I am hoping this is acknowledged and there will be some programs to address that. For some reason, the legislature eliminating the $80 school clothing allowance for poor kids just popped into my head. Wonder why?

[DetroitTeacher]

If anyone wants to know who the effective teachers are, ask the kids. They are brutally honest about such things. The "cool" teacher is rarely on that list of effective teachers. Teachers kids can trust and who actually have high expecations [[now, if the kid doesn't have any expectations for themselves, that is another story...but even so, they like the teachers who expect more, not less from them) for the kids are the effective teachers, in the minds of kids. The ineffective teachers are those who don't expect much and who don't interact with the kids with regard to their lessons [[but will laugh and joke and let the kids run amok...did I spell that right?).

When my Principal wants to know who is teaching and who isn't she asks the kids what they are doing in class and how they view the teacher. If "cool" [[or a form of) comes from the kids' mouths, she knows she has an ineffective teacher. If a kid says, "wow, she expects a lot from us and she doesn't let up" then she knows she has a great teacher. The kids are the best judges of good vs bad teachers...ask them.

[Jimaz]

FWIW, the current Newsweek has a couple of short, related articles:

• The Best High Schools in America
• Ten Miracle High Schools

From the latter:

Low-income students, paltry funding, dated facilities – that didn’t stop some schools from doing more with less – and becoming the best in America....

[English]

FWIW, the current Newsweek has a couple of short, related articles:

[LIST][*]The Best High Schools in America[*]Ten Miracle High Schools

None of the "miracle" high schools are from the Rust Belt. Save for the school in La Jolla, CA [[check out the statistics there) and Bellevue, WA [[another place that isn't exactly us, or Pontiac or Inkster for that matter), every single one of those schools is in Texas.

This is odd to me, because when I last read the Schott Report a couple of years ago, the state that was graduating the most college-ready African American young men was New Jersey. I'd like to know more about Newsweek's methodology.

[English]

BTW, there is a forthcoming national conference dedicated to scaling up what we know works in urban education:

http://www.scalingupcenter.org/conferences/index.aspx

The center looks promising, too. I'm not surprised. Vanderbilt is one of the top 5 schools of education nationally and recognizes the problem that everyone in the field does [[and that few outside of it understand) -- we know what works in urban education, but we don't know how to scale it up. I'm hoping to attend the conference.

[Det_ard]

None of the "miracle" high schools are from the Rust Belt. Save for the school in La Jolla, CA [[check out the statistics there) and Bellevue, WA [[another place that isn't exactly us, or Pontiac or Inkster for that matter), every single one of those schools is in Texas.

This is odd to me, because when I last read the Schott Report a couple of years ago, the state that was graduating the most college-ready African American young men was New Jersey. I'd like to know more about Newsweek's methodology.

The methodologies for both lists are described in the links above.

[English]

Read it. I question Newsweek's methodology. Like US News and World Report, they rely on self-reported information from principals and district officials instead of readily available data from DoE/NCES. 40% of a school's score is based upon Advanced Placement examinations and their equivalents. There is currently a vigorous debate about AP/IB, etc. Fewer selective schools are accepting AP or IB scores as course equivalents.

I'd like to know more about why Newsweek chooses to rank high schools using these methods. What's the ultimate purpose?

[Novine]

Strange that Newsweek presents the lottery aspects of some of these schools as an obstacle. Kids who get enrolled in lotteries for these schools are kids who have parents who are engaged and willing to make an effort on their behalf. Parents who don't care don't make the effort to enroll their kids in lotteries for magnet schools.

[detmsp]

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

[DetroitTeacher]

Business usually works with non-breathing product. Our "products" are human beings. Litle harder to tell who is putting things together or actually producing results when there are so many variables involved. Education can not possibly foresee all of the variables like business can. We are working with flawed materials [[there are very few instances where the material we begin with isn't flawed in some way). I don't know how anyone expects us to make miracles happen with all we have to deal with [[but we keep trying to make those miracles happen).

Doctors don't even have it this bad. If a doctor is ineffective, his patient stays ill or dies. It's easy to see who the idiot doctors are. It's not as evident with teachers. Try as I might to raise test scores, I simply can't do it with: cognitively impaired, severely learning disabled, kids who bring the abuse they suffer at home to school with them, kids who just don't give a crap, kids who don't show up [[hell, at least a crappy doctor can get sick people into the office to be seen), the young mother who has no daycare [[yes, there is CFA but many can't get there), kids who have to take care of their ill parent./grandparent/younger siblings and is up all night and dead tired the next day...I think you get the picture.

My kids show improvement through the year, master most of the concepts I put out there [[ask them and they can tell you exactly what they've learned) but, try as I might, those damned test scores are still a thorn in my side. If you ask my principal, she can tell you that I am an effective teacher even though test scores aren't going up [[not like the powers that be would like them to). I just don't have the tools needed to do my job effectively [[unless I go out and buy them myself and they usually disappear through the year).

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

[Neilr]

... Try as I might to raise test scores, I simply can't do it with: cognitively impaired, severely learning disabled, kids who bring the abuse they suffer at home to school with them, kids who just don't give a crap, kids who don't show up [[hell, at least a crappy doctor can get sick people into the office to be seen), the young mother who has no daycare [[yes, there is CFA but many can't get there), kids who have to take care of their ill parent./grandparent/younger siblings and is up all night and dead tired the next day...I think you get the picture.

My kids show improvement through the year, master most of the concepts I put out there [[ask them and they can tell you exactly what they've learned) but, try as I might, those damned test scores are still a thorn in my side. If you ask my principal, she can tell you that I am an effective teacher even though test scores aren't going up [[not like the powers that be would like them to). I just don't have the tools needed to do my job effectively [[unless I go out and buy them myself and they usually disappear through the year).

Raising standardized test scores is a snap — just follow the example of Michelle Rhee's high achieving schools in Washington, DC.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...terstitialskip

[Zacha341]

Ummm, I hear you. However, union erosion/ busting is NOT EXCLUSIVE to the repubs. We need only look to DC to see that. Their union back has all but broken STRAIGHT out of the white house-- even the most die-hard Obama supporter[[s) has had to think about. And recall the recent DFT contract negotiations [[sic), TIP, installation of Bobb, this and that came about from the desk of Jennifer Granholm: a democrat. Or I suppose we can keep blaming Engler?

Now none of this is shocking to me... the [[assumed) so-called ascribed and 'fixed' behaviors [[read legislation and policies) set forth by the left and right is NOT fixed so anyway. We just like to think it is - so as to take our medicine more willingly.

Party labels aside [[right-wing or left-wing), this is about the party of self-interest and big money and who will ultimately have access to funding. Thus we get oddities such the dems who at one side of mouth claimed to be down for the union and public education only to change course as we have seen [[or choose not to see).

More union busting is coming... Now I am not saying I am pro or anti-union. Nor am I a republican. I am not. But I'm just pointing out the union busting is being triggered by others than the usual suspects [[the right wing).

Certainly some people on the right would love to 'break unions'. You can think what you may of Governor Snyder, but to be so concerned over his motivations rather than the educational results is misguided.

IMO, the second largest problem with unions is their inability to adjust to change. If the unions would stop being sticks-in-the-mud, and would allow progressive ideas to be tried -- even when they are not the union's idea of the best way -- most people would be perfectly happy with the unions...

[Locke09]

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

That's not really true, now is it?

Most businesses have some objective method of determining effectiveness, so that employees can tell how they are doing long before the axe is swung. The standard for businesses is to have measurable objectives for employees. Employees have always, unionized or not, been able to bring to management's attention when they do not have the proper tools for the job. Any business that hopes to survive and prosper will take such concerns into consideration and try their hardest to ensure employees are properly trained and equipped, and that obstacles to performance [[that are beyond the employee's control) are removed. That's standard behavior for effective business leaders.

I don't think any respectable business or business leader anywhere would agree that they just remove employees they "feel" are not performing. They would swear that they have some objective and fair means for measuring effectiveness. That's all people are asking here. what would be fair, reliable and objective measurements.

It is a reasonable question and an important one, especially as principals are given more authority and autonomy.

[English]

Um, here's one little snag in their plan:

Eastern Michigan faculty side with teachers' unions, refuse to work in Detroit schools


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011106220413

Here's the kicker:

"EMU faculty members didn't learnabout the EAS until Monday morning from a news release, union President Susan Moeller said at the Tuesday meeting."

I literally could not believe this sentence. I am shocked, stunned, and frankly, appalled. I was certain that EMU had been in on the plans for the statewide district.

Apparently, those behind the plan have absolutely no idea how higher education works, or how to get buy-in from faculty. I'm a lowly, wet-behind-the-ears assistant, and if what I'm reading in this article is true, if I were in their position, I know I'd sit on my hands on general principle. I cannot believe that the EMU administration did not let the faculty know anything about working in Detroit until the press conference.

I keep telling my colleagues that "we're next -- they don't see us any differently than teachers," and here is proof. These folks don't respect teachers at all, so of course, they don't think that professors know anything. Apparently we can be ordered around just like K-12 educators. Neither our input nor our expertise is required or desirable.

Stop telling me these "reformers" know what they're doing. This is a hot stinking pile of mess.