Rick Snyder to announce sweeping DPS reforms Monday

[English]

I'm with DetroitTeacher. I'm skeptical, and will remain so until I see that these reforms are working.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm with DetroitTeacher. I'm skeptical, and will remain so until I see that these reforms are working.

Skepticism is good. Obstruction is not.

[Novine]

"IMO, the second largest problem with unions is their inability to adjust to change. If the unions would stop being sticks-in-the-mud, and would allow progressive ideas to be tried -- even when they are not the union's idea of the best way -- most people would be perfectly happy with the unions. "

Can you explain within the context of DPS how this comes into play? What reform ideas has DPS or Robert Bobb not been able to implement because the unions resisted progressive ideas?

[Det_ard]

Can you explain within the context of DPS how this comes into play? What reform ideas has DPS or Robert Bobb not been able to implement because the unions resisted progressive ideas?

Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach.

[maxx]

Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach.

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

[Det_ard]

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

I wouldn't just use tests to measure teachers. I'd use a variety of methods, and leave it up to highly educated educators to devise the best method of evaluation. Surely the vast academic-educational complex is able to develop ways to sort the wheat from the chaff. Tests aren't all bad though, they're good enough for teachers to use them to evaluate students.

Or, alternatively, we could ignore what parents, other teachers, administrators and even students know and treat all teachers as if they're all the same. Sure, it dooms a portion of our children to mediocrity or worse every year, but since when is K-12 all about the kids anyway? God forbid we do something that might not be executed perfectly in our pursuit of a great education for every kid.

[detmsp]

And how to determine who are the high-performing teachers? By how many kids pass the MEAP test? That might work for math, but it's more complicated when you are talking about reading and writing. Then too the MEAP is given in the fall when kids have only been in school a month or so. And are students placed in classes on the basis of their abilities? What about the ones who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities like dyslexia? Should they be included in determining a teacher's effectiveness?

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

[DetroitTeacher]

Business usually works with non-breathing product. Our "products" are human beings. Litle harder to tell who is putting things together or actually producing results when there are so many variables involved. Education can not possibly foresee all of the variables like business can. We are working with flawed materials [[there are very few instances where the material we begin with isn't flawed in some way). I don't know how anyone expects us to make miracles happen with all we have to deal with [[but we keep trying to make those miracles happen).

Doctors don't even have it this bad. If a doctor is ineffective, his patient stays ill or dies. It's easy to see who the idiot doctors are. It's not as evident with teachers. Try as I might to raise test scores, I simply can't do it with: cognitively impaired, severely learning disabled, kids who bring the abuse they suffer at home to school with them, kids who just don't give a crap, kids who don't show up [[hell, at least a crappy doctor can get sick people into the office to be seen), the young mother who has no daycare [[yes, there is CFA but many can't get there), kids who have to take care of their ill parent./grandparent/younger siblings and is up all night and dead tired the next day...I think you get the picture.

My kids show improvement through the year, master most of the concepts I put out there [[ask them and they can tell you exactly what they've learned) but, try as I might, those damned test scores are still a thorn in my side. If you ask my principal, she can tell you that I am an effective teacher even though test scores aren't going up [[not like the powers that be would like them to). I just don't have the tools needed to do my job effectively [[unless I go out and buy them myself and they usually disappear through the year).

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

[Locke09]

Are you kidding me? How about this... The school leadership will use their judgement to determine who is effective. It works in literally every business around the world, but you think it won't here?

That's not really true, now is it?

Most businesses have some objective method of determining effectiveness, so that employees can tell how they are doing long before the axe is swung. The standard for businesses is to have measurable objectives for employees. Employees have always, unionized or not, been able to bring to management's attention when they do not have the proper tools for the job. Any business that hopes to survive and prosper will take such concerns into consideration and try their hardest to ensure employees are properly trained and equipped, and that obstacles to performance [[that are beyond the employee's control) are removed. That's standard behavior for effective business leaders.

I don't think any respectable business or business leader anywhere would agree that they just remove employees they "feel" are not performing. They would swear that they have some objective and fair means for measuring effectiveness. That's all people are asking here. what would be fair, reliable and objective measurements.

It is a reasonable question and an important one, especially as principals are given more authority and autonomy.

[Kevgoblue]

The schools aren't the problem. Schools are just buildings. Four walls with a bunch of desks and chairs. What about the 5,000 lb gorilla in the room......parental involvement?

Many have rightly addressed the downright failures associated with previous state takeovers. That is because having different buildings or different administrators or different service providers really has minimal effect on the learning process.

When speaking of kids getting a good education in DPS, most are referring to Renaissance or Cass. Schools that require an admission process to enter. A process that ensures that the kids have an existing history of academic achievement, normal attendance rates and letters of recomendation.
But how to address the kids which come from an enviornment of extreme poverty. Or those that have parents with a myriad of social and / or dependancy problems. Those kids whose parents don't really care if they go to school or not.

A new authority board from EMU will most likely be drastically more effective than Reverand David Murray in establishing standards for schools and meeting budgets. But how will they reach out to help the disproportionately high number of at risk students which attend DPS?

[Locke09]

Skepticism is good. Obstruction is not.

Neither is the philosophy that "any change is better than what we have." Neither is the philosophy that we should just keep giving people a chance to experiment with our kids.

We should always demand answers to legitimate questions. And we should "get in the way" if those answers are not forthcoming, don't make sense, or appear to make things worse. I'm not saying this is the case here. We don't have any details yet, so this is the perfect time to ask the hard questions and raise the legitimate issues, so that the answers to those questions and issues can become part of the plan.

You see, most people will not have a problem with change if it is well-defined, does not lead to them being disenfranchised and is motivated by nothing other than a desire to make things better for everyone [[or at least the most people). Haphazard change is another issue and this is what people fear more than simple "change" itself. "How" matters as much as "What". Failure to see that is what leads to failed proposal after failed proposal.

If the answer to the debt is "more bonds", taxpayers should know what this new beast is going to look like before they approve any new bonds. Or does this new EM stuff also allow them to stick us with new taxes without our vote?

[professorscott]

Remember it was perhaps our greatest Democrat president, Franklin Roosevelt, who called for "bold, persistent experimentation". I am astonished that people are complaining that these changes amount to "experimenting with our kids". True, but DPS has been experimenting with our kids for decades and persistently failing at it.

I would say a new "experiment" that has any positive chance of success, however small, has got to be better than the old experiment which is proven to have zero chance of success, "success" defined as "most kids in DPS are getting a quality education".

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

[Locke09]

Remember it was perhaps our greatest Democrat president, Franklin Roosevelt, who called for "bold, persistent experimentation". I am astonished that people are complaining that these changes amount to "experimenting with our kids". True, but DPS has been experimenting with our kids for decades and persistently failing at it.

I would say a new "experiment" that has any positive chance of success, however small, has got to be better than the old experiment which is proven to have zero chance of success, "success" defined as "most kids in DPS are getting a quality education".

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

Well Roosevelt was talking about the economy. You can tweak the economy every week or every day if you need to. If you fail, you're just talking about money, which can be recovered with some more tweaking.

When it comes to children and education, you cannot just try new things every couple years and if they fail say, "Oh well, let's try something else". Educators of young children can tell you that just a few years of poor schooling can turn a child off from education forever, or set them so far behind that it will take great heroics for them to catch up.

I am an advocate for change - orderly and meaningful change. Change that is well-planned, well-defined, analyzed to ensure best likelihood of sucess, risks determined and backup plans identified, measurements that tell us early whether we are being successful and need to make modifications. That's why I continue to say I am reserving judgment because the devil will be in the details.

However, I also strongly advocate the asking of questions and the raising of issues during this phase, before people think they have a plan etched in stone, that they will be reluctant to change even if you tell them the emperor is naked [[e.g. as it was with Robert Bobb).

I believe anyone confident in their ability to properly execute change will not have any problem having their ideas challenged - even facing skepticism. They will welcome the opportunity to make their plan even better. If a person cannot stand being questioned, they cannot have my respect.

This isn't a DPS vs. the "New Education Deal" issue. This is just people asking for clarification of the New Deal and how it will address some systemic issues that could cause even the most well-intentioned efforts to fail.

Forget DPS.This new plan should be able to stand or fall on its own merit, not stand only if compared to DPS. That's too easy and a cop-out.

[English]

If you are complaining or skeptical or negative toward the coming changes, let me ask you this: what would you have done? The status quo is not an option. [[cf. Einstein's Definition of Insanity.)

PM me and we'll have coffee.

I trust my colleagues at EMU. I know the ones in my field and subfields, and trust their professional judgment. But for offline circumstances this week, you guys would get a screenful of text from me, as usual.

I do hope this is the ticket. The eyes of the nation will be on Detroit. However, yes, I am skeptical because we do not have the political will or the social capital to do what needs to be done.

[Novine]

"Pay for performance. High salaries for high performing teachers. Lower salaries for low performing teachers, and the ability to quickly [[as in days, not years) replace ineffective teachers.
Layoffs based on level of competency rather than level of seniority.
Student-focused approach rather than adult-focused approach."

All of these have been proposed by Bobb or DPS and been blocked by the teachers union in Detroit schools?