NS cuts Amtrak speeds to 25 MPH, 90 minute delays expected

**reddog289** · June-17-11, 01:38 AM

I live a block south of the NS/Amtrak tracks here in Wayne. I still see and hear the Amtrak going at its usual speed and when I am stopped by it still see the near empty cars speeding down the track.
I guess that Ann Arbor is busier then Dearborn, The passengers must all get on and off there.

**Rocko** · June-17-11, 07:00 AM

Track speed [[60-70mph) is still maintained from Detroit all the way to CP-Ypsi, which is on the east side of Ypsilanti.

Ann Arbor is the busiest station in Michigan. The traffic through there can easily fill one, often two cars on its own on every train. When I was going to college at WMU and went home to visit my parents in Dearborn, I often took the train. I was always so glad on Sunday nights boarding westbound train 355 that I got on in Dearborn. Dearborn was busy, but I knew I'd find a seat. We'd get to Ann Arbor and some kids would still be wandering around looking for seats as we were pulling into Jackson!

**jsmyers** · June-17-11, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by reddog289

I still see and hear the Amtrak going at its usual speed and when I am stopped by it still see the near empty cars speeding down the track.

You can't see into the cars enough to tell if there is somebody in the seats from the road next to the train. The windows are quite high relative to the seat level. If somebody is short, leaning in the other direction, laying down, or in the isle seat, you'd have no idea they were in there, and the window would look empty.

In addition, the trains often sell out, but the stretch were they are fullest is between Kalamazoo and Chicago. Chicago dominates the market, so that generally the trains are emptier the further they get from Chicago.

**detroitbob** · June-20-11, 12:09 AM

I take the DBN/Chi Amtrak frequently and the station stops are really quick, but the "slow" zones cause the delays...on the west bound route from the Indiana line to the Calumet River causes the major delay. After that point they pick up speed until about 18th St. and than start the slow down to Union Station.

**reddog289** · June-20-11, 12:27 AM

One day I will take the train to Chicago, But I would like to catch it downtown to see the sights along the way. As for empty cars, I might just catch them at a downtime.I do know I was surprised by the amount of passengers at the Ann Arbor depot. Arriving and Departing.
Having been to Union Station in Chicago I was in awe of the place.Made me sad that I hadn't took the train there from Detroit just from Auroa, ILL.

**Rocko** · June-22-11, 08:42 PM

Detroit to Chicago in 8 minutes FLAT!

Here's what Obama has in mind for our high speed rail.....schooled passengers of the Michigan Line may recognize a few landmarks along the line....if you don't blink!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAikJc67tO4

**Downriviera** · September-11-11, 07:56 PM

There is an interesting story in the September edition of Trains magazine titled, Michigan Speeds Plummet. It seems the author was on a westbound last June from Detroit that took 6 hours to get to Kalamazoo. This was due to the old signal system malfunctioning. The deal between the state, Amtrak and Norfolk Southern cannot come soon enough.

**Jowlska** · September-11-11, 09:46 PM

I've taken several trips to SW Michigan on Amtrak this summer. It has been delayed at least 90 minutes every time. Sadly it's becoming to feel normal. Is there any end in sight to this other than the MDOT and Amtrak are going to buy the track someday? At least when it's fixed it will give me the illusion that I am on a high speed train... I've looked for alternatives to Amtrak to get over to the west side, but Greyhound only has one direct bus [[the other goes to Lansing and take 5 hours), and I haven't found Detroit info for Indian Trails. So fixing the train seems like the only thing that I can hope for for now.

**Rocko** · September-11-11, 10:56 PM

Yes, actually. The State and NS announced an agreement back in August whereby the state is paying NS something like $3 million to bring the track back into a state of good repair which would raise track speed back up to what they were prior to the slow orders being enacted at the beginning of the summer. That dollar figure may not be exactly right, but something like that. I heard that the slow orders for the segment east of Jackson were just removed. Work is ongoing now and should be done soon. Additionally, Amtrak is testing the 110mph signalling system west of Kalamazoo. Several test trains have run in the past few weeks. Hopefully, before too long, the segment east of Kalamazoo will be "back to normal," and the segment to the west [[between Porter and Kzoo) will be faster than ever before. It's just too bad this all happened during the height of the summer travel season.

As for an official purchase by either Amtrak or the state of Michigan of the line.....nothing's been agreed upon yet.

**runnerXT** · September-12-11, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

The problem is when the Gov starts getting into the taking business the lines become blurry as to what can be taken and from whom.

The obstacle toward high speed rail is this countries non desire to fund true high speed rail. We like to throw billions at round about solutions without getting to the realities .

We are puttering around at whopping 90 mph speeds while other countries that are 1/3 the power of this country are reaching now in excess of 200 mph

America's infrastructure is falling way behind from telephone tech to transportation. Our train travel is worse than many of but the poorest of countries. While we have huge arguments over a penny in perspective in train travel this is what our rival is doing.

While we have power outages, school buildings crumbling, closing libraries, congested roads this is what our rival is investing in. From Japan to South Korea to Europe we are falling apart. Sure anyone can pull up an example of a country of where we are 'ahead' but since when do we have to look to the bottom to look good?

China is investing over $300 billion USD in just trains. We bicker over pennies in comparison.

Come on America, be a leader again!

in eight minutes this train was going from 0mph to 268mph

how is this for a train station?

**epiphany** · September-12-11, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by runnerXT

America's infrastructure is falling way behind from telephone tech to transportation. Our train travel is worse than many of but the poorest of countries. While we have huge arguments over a penny in perspective in train travel this is what our rival is doing.

While we have power outages, school buildings crumbling, closing libraries, congested roads this is what our rival is investing in. From Japan to South Korea to Europe we are falling apart. Sure anyone can pull up an example of a country of where we are 'ahead' but since when do we have to look to the bottom to look good?

China is investing over $300 billion USD in just trains. We bicker over pennies in comparison.

Come on America, be a leader again!

in eight minutes this train was going from 0mph to 268mph

how is this for a train station?

Screw this. I am finishing school and moving to China. Just for the trains!

**Bham1982** · September-12-11, 06:56 AM

China also has virtual slave labor, no safety standards [[resulting in train crashes and bloodshed), massive corruption, and brutal autocratic rule.

But I guess if the stations are shiny and new, all's good, right?

**casscorridor** · September-12-11, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

China also has virtual slave labor, no safety standards [[resulting in train crashes and bloodshed), massive corruption, and brutal autocratic rule.

But I guess if the stations are shiny and new, all's good, right?

That is a absurd argument. There is no reason why we can't have a completely modern transportation system AND build it without exploiting working people. We can give good paying jobs with health care and benefits to all workers of a new transportation system. All we have to do is tax the rich. Oh wait...

**Bham1982** · September-12-11, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

That is a absurd argument. There is no reason why we can't have a completely modern transportation system AND build it without exploiting working people. .

I totally agree, and support a modern transportation system, but the premise was that we needed to follow the Chinese example, which is completely unworkable in a representative democracy.

**DetroitPlanner** · September-12-11, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

That is a absurd argument. There is no reason why we can't have a completely modern transportation system AND build it without exploiting working people. We can give good paying jobs with health care and benefits to all workers of a new transportation system. All we have to do is tax the rich. Oh wait...

Cass.... and there is the rub. Taxes going into the transportation system are decreasing while costs are increasing. There has been a several year trend of decreasing vehicle miles of travel and increased fuel efficiency. Gas taxes at the federal level have not been raised since probably the Reagan adminstration. Gas taxes at the State have not been increased since gas was $1 a gallon. Now you may think to yourself, since you pay more for a gallon that means more revenue, but that would be a wrong assumption because gas is taxed per gallon sold 18.4 and 19 cents for federal and state respectively.

**Novine** · September-12-11, 12:23 PM

"China also has virtual slave labor, no safety standards [[resulting in train crashes and bloodshed), massive corruption, and brutal autocratic rule.

But I guess if the stations are shiny and new, all's good, right?"

Nice drive by shooting but you missed the point. If China is so backwards and can achieve such a system, what's our excuse?

**Bham1982** · September-12-11, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Nice drive by shooting but you missed the point. If China is so backwards and can achieve such a system, what's our excuse?

Our "excuses" are many, and are basically unsurmountable. That's a good thing.

-We don't have centralized planning

-We do have community input and a codified review process

-We do have prevailing wage laws and safety laws on public projects

IMO, it's nonsense to even think of emulating China. They're the biggest bubble in history, and the crash won't be pretty. And their rise is based on a completely different system and value framework.

What we can do is look at other representative democracies. Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. If we want a similar rail network, for example, what are we willing to trade?

For example, Germany has a fantastic rail network BUT they have massive gas taxes, almost no local input on infrastructure projects and tremendous centralized control.

So we can do what Germany does. Are we willing to cede control at the state and local level? Are we willing to pay three times as much for gas?

**Gistok** · September-12-11, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

For example, Germany has a fantastic rail network BUT they have massive gas taxes, almost no local input on infrastructure projects and tremendous centralized control.

So we can do what Germany does. Are we willing to cede control at the state and local level? Are we willing to pay three times as much for gas?

For as often as I have traveled to Germany to visit relatives... taken the Autobahn from Frankfurt and back....or one of their high speed InterCity trains... and then get back to DTW and get onto I-94.... I am immediately reminded why we should be willing to cede some control... especially at the local level.

More people need to visit Germany to decide on the tradeoffs on the price of Gas and local control... I'd give it a thumbs up any day...

**Malcove Magnesia** · September-12-11, 09:54 PM

Too many NIMBY's whose properties line up against tracks [[or proposed ROW's) would very much disagree with you regarding giving up local control. This is one of the big reasons why California High Speed Rail has been held up for so many years now.

**Danny** · September-13-11, 07:33 AM

I don't ride Amtrak anyway. cars, trucks, Greyhound, Megabus.com, jet planes and space travel are the norms in America.

**swingline** · September-13-11, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

I'm all for investment in trains, but 110 really isn't fast enough. We need some bullet lines between the major cities. Train lines that make traveling by car a joke.

I disagree completely. 230mph bullet trains in the U.S. are a political and fiscal impossibility for the next several generations. We'll sooner see common carrier passenger travel in space.

Consistent and reliable 110mph corridors in the Midwest and Northeast are completely adequate to generate ridership growth for Amtrak and could be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of a bullet train system. Ridership would soar if 3 1/2 hours for a Detroit-Chicago run became the norm. That's where the focus should be. But wait, investing in rail infrastructure might require making government a little "bigger." Never mind, can't have that.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · September-13-11, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I have two issues with this thread.

First of all the title is inaccurate. NS can't cut Amtrak speeds at all. NS has simply said it is only willing to maintain the track so as to support operating speeds of 25 to 60mph. So the number 25 in the headline is entirely misleading.

Second of all, the state plans to use some of the track-upgrade money it is getting specifically to upgrade the track beyond NS standards so the trains will be able to operate at the higher speeds.

The only piece of news is that NS is cutting how much money it is willing to spend maintaining that section of track, since 60mph is a high enough operating speed for NS's purposes. Not much news at all, there.

NS does not want to pay its share to upgrade the Michigan rail system.

They want the taxpayers to do it.

Corporate Welfare.

**douglasm** · September-13-11, 07:26 PM

As I understand it, the line between Ann Arbor and K-zoo is a reletively lightly used stretch of rail for freight service, with the primary traffic load being handled between Detroit and Montpelier, Ohio. If that's true, why should NS be responsible for maintaining track to a standard it wouldn't have a use for?

**Downriviera** · September-13-11, 08:48 PM

Maybe they should just rip out the tracks and make it a rails to trail bike route. We can then ride our bikes to Chicago, and in some cases probably do that faster than the train. lol

**professorscott** · September-14-11, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

NS does not want to pay its share to upgrade the Michigan rail system.

They want the taxpayers to do it.

Corporate Welfare.

As opposed to the interstate highways, for which the maintenance is paid 100% by the freight trucking companies that use them, you're saying?

The government maintains nearly all of the transportation infrastructure of every kind in every country on Earth.