Privatized trash pickup weighed in Detroit

**DetroitPlanner** · June-10-11, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

As a Detroit resident, I am satisfied with my trash collection. I thing it's bogus that Kwame tacked on a $300 "collection fee" [[don't my taxes already pay for this?) but they have never missed a pickup and don't leave a mess.

Did you notice along with the fee bulk pickup was cut back to 3 times per year? Bulk pick up days are always messy. With so few bulk pick ups, the city really went to crap in terms of illegal dumping. If you call DPW they will tell you that you can always bring your garbage to one of thier yards, but how is the average person going to do that if they do not have a pick up? Stats show that 40 percent of the households don't have access to a car.

**Novine** · June-10-11, 10:25 PM

"For example, there has been binding arbitration in Michigan between city administrators and public-sector unions."

Only police and fire get binding arbitration in Michigan.

"Since there are no shareholders or owners, by definition, city adminstrators have little motivation to endure the alternative to a Union's demands -- a strike."

Those shareholders are the people we call voters. I've heard this claim before and it never makes sense. Government employees, even in large cities, are a fraction of the voting population. But to listen to some people, they have total control of the voting populace.

**faygoredpop** · June-11-11, 02:00 AM

Well just as others have said, I have no problems with the trash pickup in my area and I live in Detroit as well. I went to my sister's house yesterday, who lives in Dearborn, and it was her trash day. I could not believe it. I had to of seen at least 6 garbage trucks come down her street. Now mind you her block all the trash was picked up and I saw them going up and down the other blocks to make sure everything was picked up, and I know I have never seen that many trucks come down my block on my trash day.

And I think it is ridiculous if Bing now wants to take 1 more bulk pickup from us. I mean we went from once a month, to once every 3 months now once a quarter. Is he out of his mind???? If he does this then we should not have to pay $300 a year for bulk, it better go down some. I bet he will pretty soon turn the bulk into either every 6 months or once a year. If he does that I guess we will have to hold onto the Christmas tree until summer to throw it out.

**CLAUDE G** · June-11-11, 02:12 AM

The problem with Private Trash pickup, is that they aint going to pick up if they don't get paid.

Its sad to say, there are people taking advantage of the system by not paying their trash bill through the city. The problem is that once you start refusing collection from people that won't or can't afford to pay, then they turn to illegal dumping

**Magnatomicflux** · June-11-11, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Lot of subtle finger-pointing at unions on this thread.

Please remember: Union benefits are ONLY those that management has agreed to. If there should be some excessive salaries or benefits somewhere, blame MANAGEMENT, not the unions, for agreeing to it.

Labor Relations 101, people.

That's true, but at the same time if managment [[city, in this case) won't budge they'll just leave your garbage all over the damn place until they're happy. Windsor just went thru this a couple years ago. Our parks were trashed because they wern't being cut [[I kinda liked the long grass along the river and in some parts of the paks actually). There's nothing wrong with them having a union, but they shouldn't be able to hold a city and its citizens hostage to get their way. Maybe rotating strikes or something. Otherwise, Managment MUST agree or watch the city grind to a hault. Its one thing to stop a production line, but they shouldn't be able to stop a city and risk the health of the population.
After that debocile, Windsor now has a private company doing the garbage. I've always thought Windsors collectors did a stellar job. It's too bad they're gone.

I got a little pissed a few weeks ago, when the new company's employees were considering joining CUPE.....the same union that the city employees are under.
They decided against it, but still.
What a slap in the face.

**rjk** · June-11-11, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"For example, there has been binding arbitration in Michigan between city administrators and public-sector unions."

Only police and fire get binding arbitration in Michigan.

"Since there are no shareholders or owners, by definition, city adminstrators have little motivation to endure the alternative to a Union's demands -- a strike."

Those shareholders are the people we call voters. I've heard this claim before and it never makes sense. Government employees, even in large cities, are a fraction of the voting population. But to listen to some people, they have total control of the voting populace.

Unions have always been a big backer of the dem party just like the NRA is with the rep party. Those two groups are throwing around a lot of money.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-11-11, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"Since there are no shareholders or owners, by definition, city adminstrators have little motivation to endure the alternative to a Union's demands -- a strike."

Those shareholders are the people we call voters. I've heard this claim before and it never makes sense. Government employees, even in large cities, are a fraction of the voting population. But to listen to some people, they have total control of the voting populace.

This is what is great about forums. The chance to discuss opinions. To share ideas. To try to understand why someone holds a different opinion -- and for all of us to learn something we didn't know before.

I would agree with you that unions have nothing like 'total control of the voting population'.

But I do agree with FDR that public employee unions are somewhat special.

In FDR's day, with very few if any public employee unions, he foresaw the effects of public employee unions with private industry bargaining powers. And he was right.

That isn't an anti-union statement. Unions should and must have a place at the table. But I think the rules should be different.

I doubt that most union contracts agreed to by management would have been approved by citizen vote.

Union contracts do not get voted upon by residents.

And the residents pay without effectively being represented.

**Novine** · June-11-11, 07:17 PM

"And the residents pay without effectively being represented."

Contracts aren't approved in a vacuum. They're approved by the elected officials put into office by the voters. The negotiations are done on terms directed by the elected officials. To claim residents don't have representation in those discussions means you don't believe in our system of representative democracy.

**michigansheik** · June-11-11, 07:39 PM

isn't the fee in detroit currently down to $240...at least thats what i think it was lowered to on my last tax bill. billing for trash in the property taxes won't work in detroit...some homes have a taxable value of 15k while some its 150k so the payment made is quite different for those two households however in most cases the cost to collect the trash is the same. the 240 seems reasonable. the city has never missed a pickup in my neighborhood, LP, and they seem to take just about anything. i own a rental in eastpointe who contracted waste management, they are very picky about what they don't pickup however everyone is informed by pamphlet what they don't accept it can be annoying at times...something detroiters may find annoying.

i agree quarterly bulk is bare bones going less could create some issues.

**Scottathew** · June-11-11, 08:35 PM

Let's get government out of the business of providing services that the private world provides.

What happens when Detroit runs its own power grid? All government building downtown go dark for two days.

The bigger government gets the less efficient it gets. Privatize trash pickup!

**Hypestyles** · June-11-11, 11:39 PM

i hope a solution is reached that maximizes service and doesn't leave trash around.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-12-11, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"And the residents pay without effectively being represented."

Contracts aren't approved in a vacuum. They're approved by the elected officials put into office by the voters. The negotiations are done on terms directed by the elected officials. To claim residents don't have representation in those discussions means you don't believe in our system of representative democracy.

You are correct. I don't think the residents have enough representation. Put the contract on the ballot.

I do believe in our system of representative democracy. But what actually happens is that the negotiating team [[unelected) negotiates a deal that is then put to the elected officials, who can agree or disagree. The price of disagreement is steep. If an elected official did not approve the agreement proposed, they'd be targeted by labor. Fearing loss of support by labor, they are inclined to agree. Contract approved.

That's what we have. A structural problem. Some democracy. But not adequate to give residents [[taxpayers) ability to say 'no'.

Again, I am in favor of Unions for public sector employees to protect them against unscrupulous management. But treating our own government the same way we treat a private enterprise is bad policy. We should find a better way to protect workers, treat them fairly, yet also give true rights to residents.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-12-11, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by faygoredpop

.And I think it is ridiculous if Bing now wants to take 1 more bulk pickup from us. I mean we went from once a month, to once every 3 months now once a quarter. Is he out of his mind???? If he does this then we should not have to pay $300 a year for bulk, it better go down some. I bet he will pretty soon turn the bulk into either every 6 months or once a year. If he does that I guess we will have to hold onto the Christmas tree until summer to throw it out.

Actually it is already about every 4 months for bulk pick up. I agree with you though many people just junk up thier yards waiting for these bulk days and if they miss them, they have to keep it junked up for up to 8 months! I am convinced that this is poor policy for a number of reasons because:

a) The amount of garbage being generated does not shrink, it only piles up.
b) Sometimes piled up garbage gets moved to nearby vacant lots/houses, creating hazzards and unsightly areas. This is definitely a broken window application that makes a nieghborhood go to hell quick.
c) Most do follow the law however when they set thier bulk trash out they now have to spend close to a days hauling it to the curb. There is lots of it, and the trucks fill up quickly and the City needs to spend more time per home just picking it up.
d) Those who are moving do not have the luxury of waiting four months to de-clutter.
e) While this iss a service that citizen's pay for, some have no choice but to purchase a roll of dumpster that gets dropped off in front of thier home if they want to get rid of the junk. Depending upon when it gets dropped off the neighbors can descend on it to fill it up with thier junk before the person who paid for it even gets home from work and has a chance to fill it.

**ruth** · June-12-11, 07:32 AM

Please forgive these questions from an outsider but do you have to proviide your own trash containers and does your trash collection service currently include a seperate recylcing bin? Does Detroit require recycling?

I'm very pro-union and think [[again from the outside) that this falls into a grey area. Anything that can save money in Detroit is good - but union busting seems to be the goal across the country. .

**Wesley Mouch** · June-12-11, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by ruth

...I'm very pro-union and think [[again from the outside) that this falls into a grey area. Anything that can save money in Detroit is good - but union busting seems to be the goal across the country. .

It is possible to be pro-union, and still make good individual decisions on individual issues.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-12-11, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by ruth

Please forgive these questions from an outsider but do you have to proviide your own trash containers and does your trash collection service currently include a seperate recylcing bin? Does Detroit require recycling?

I'm very pro-union and think [[again from the outside) that this falls into a grey area. Anything that can save money in Detroit is good - but union busting seems to be the goal across the country. .

Each home gets a giant garbage bin on wheels that gets trucked to the curb on pick up day. You need to spray your address on it or it will get stolen by a neighbor that always seems to generate enough trash to fill as many bins as he can. A truck comes by and the driver does not even need to get out because all bins are uniform in size. a lobster claw comes out, picks it up, dumps it in the back of the truck, sets it back down. This is why we can't put out bulk items. Bulk is not uniform.

Recycling?? We don't need to recycle we have a giant smokestack where we burn everything. Batteries, Motor Oil, plastics, prestone, don't matter. It all blows over to Canada so its no big deal. [[yes this is mostly sarcastic, but there is no recycling)

**Novine** · June-12-11, 10:45 AM

"But what actually happens is that the negotiating team [[unelected) negotiates a deal that is then put to the elected officials, who can agree or disagree. The price of disagreement is steep. If an elected official did not approve the agreement proposed, they'd be targeted by labor."

The negotiating team negotiates on the terms given to them by elected officials. If elected officials are failing to provide oversight or give poor direction, that's a problem with those officials, not the system. If the system didn't work, every community would have these kinds of problems. But they don't because in many communities, the elected officials recognize that they ultimately have to answer to the voters for the decisions that are made.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-12-11, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"But what actually happens is that the negotiating team [[unelected) negotiates a deal that is then put to the elected officials, who can agree or disagree. The price of disagreement is steep. If an elected official did not approve the agreement proposed, they'd be targeted by labor."

The negotiating team negotiates on the terms given to them by elected officials. If elected officials are failing to provide oversight or give poor direction, that's a problem with those officials, not the system. If the system didn't work, every community would have these kinds of problems. But they don't because in many communities, the elected officials recognize that they ultimately have to answer to the voters for the decisions that are made.

True, but in too many cases, the elected officials realize they won't 'utlimately' be in office when the bill comes due. That 'systemic' problem seems to be widespread, IMO.

Enjoy Sunday! Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!

GUSHI · June-12-11, 11:09 AM

Living in shelby twp, I pay $43.00 every 3 months or 14.33 a month. Can the C.O.D. DO IT THAT CHEAP, just curious.

**Scottathew** · June-12-11, 11:22 AM

Being pro-union involves being anti-efficiency and anti-accountability.

Efficiently doing something is AGAINST what unions want. Unions want things done in the most inefficient and expensive way because it means more money for them.

DetroitPole · June-12-11, 11:50 AM

I think trash pickup is quite good in the city. I've never had a problem.

However, weekly bulk trash pickup is almost a necessity. Look at all the abandoned houses throughout the city that are filled with bulk trash. They're awful, and they're big tinderboxes. Even nefarious residents would no longer have a need to do such things. There is only bulk pickup four times per year, and even I need it more than that.

So if we could save enough money to have normal trash pickup and regular bulk pickup it would be well worth it terms of quality of life. Frankly I don't care if they have indentured servants picking up the trash. The city has to do things as cheaply as possible now, as if that weren't clear enough already.

I also heard from an inside source that the "pilot" recycling program in the Greater EEV and Rosedale areas is done at several times what a private company could do it for.

Sorry, don't care about the city workers and blah blah anymore. Most of them don't live in the city anymore anyway.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · June-12-11, 01:52 PM

As a citizen of Detroit, it is high time to privative trash collection. The City of Detroit can use multiple contractors to provide trash pick-up, bulk hauling, and recycling services.

Privatizing saves costs. The City of Detroit will no longer have to pay for the health care and pensions of workers. It is a long term success.

In addition, by using various Contractors for different parts of the City will allows for the mulitple contractors to compete against each for cost and service. As when one Contractor fails to perform, the threat of another contractor taking his work away will make the Contractor much more persistent to get the job done.

**Ray1936** · June-12-11, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by ruth

Please forgive these questions from an outsider but do you have to proviide your own trash containers and does your trash collection service currently include a seperate recylcing bin? .

In metro Las Vegas, Republic Services provides recycling bins and offers various sizes of trash containers at a monthly fee [[very cheap), or you can just buy your own at Lowes or Home Depot.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-12-11, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Being pro-union involves being anti-efficiency and anti-accountability.

Efficiently doing something is AGAINST what unions want. Unions want things done in the most inefficient and expensive way because it means more money for them.

That's an awfully broad statement. It can of course be true. But sometimes its not true.

I understand that in cities where union employees 'bid' against private contractors, they do win on a regular basis. The best result to me is that the City should always do some part of the work -- so they understand the costs and issues. Enables city to write good specs, and know what things really cost. Stay competent. Keep the subs in line.

This is where Unions can be trouble. It often isn't the wage, but the unwillingness to redraw job descriptions. Things change, but union rules by law allow unions to stymie those changes.

**Don K** · June-12-11, 10:28 PM

Here in Bloomfield Township I paid $168.63 for a year's trash pickup a little while ago [[Rizzo Services from Warren, pay in advance for 11 months, get the twelfth month free). No muss, no fuss, every Wednesday four trucks [[trash, recycling, yard waste, bulk) come through. Better than the previous service from Waste Management, because their recycling would only take #1 & #2 plastics, while Rizzo takes everything. Also better than Birmingham, where a bulk pickup took a trip to City Hall and payment of an additional $25.

I have no preference for municipal versus private trash hauling; all I care about is convenience and value for money, and right now that's what I've got.