Is it crazy to [[voluntarily) live without a car in Detroit?

**urbanhat** · June-01-11, 12:30 PM

Looks like there have been a few threads about car-free incentives and such, but I want to pose the question: Is it at all possible, really, to live without a car Detroit?

I've read that roughly 20-25% of Detroiters do not have access to a car. I assume these are almost all people who are too poor to own a car and would buy one if they could.

But what about a young professional person who could otherwise afford it simply prefers to avoid the hassle and expense of owning a car?

I've lived happily car-free in Boston for the past four years, and now I'm considering moving to Detroit. The biggest downside I can see is not the lack of jobs, but the necessity of buying a car. Is it possible to get away without one? Does anyone do this? It doesn't seem easy, but maybe it's possible to make do with a combination of walking, biking, taxis, and informal car-sharing. Would that be a reasonable challenge, or just miserable?

I'm originally from MI, so I understand it's obviously far more car-centric than Boston. But is there any place for a car-free lifestyle?

**iheartthed** · June-01-11, 12:44 PM

Of course it is possible. But your quality of life in Detroit will be significantly less than what it was in Boston without a car.

**Detroitnerd** · June-01-11, 12:46 PM

The great thing about Detroit is you don't need a car at all. With our vast system of electrified street railways, you can be whisked from one side of town to the other for a modest fare.

Oh, wait ... wrong century ...

bartock · June-01-11, 12:46 PM

Is this a c-punch?

**SWMAP** · June-01-11, 12:56 PM

Apropos to this, I am reminded of the young man's plaintive remark on this Board that here girls think you are a loser if all you have is a bike to get around on. Need to keep that in mind.

**Bham1982** · June-01-11, 01:14 PM

No way is it crazy.

Odd and impractical, for sure, but not crazy.

I think it may kinda sorta work if you're a student in Midtown. Even then, though, you would probably need to bum a ton of rides.

**p1acebo** · June-01-11, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

No way is it crazy.

Odd and impractical, for sure, but not crazy.

I think it may kinda sorta work if you're a student in Midtown. Even then, though, you would probably need to bum a ton of rides.

This, plus the hipsters seem to live fine without cars, although they are not "young professionals"

**trotwood** · June-01-11, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by p1acebo

This, plus the hipsters seem to live fine without cars, although they are not "young professionals"

I'm not a hipster nor[[sadly)am I a youngster but I manage to live a rather nice comfortable life without a car. Lived in Detroit for years with one&years without one. When I had one I often left it parked&took the bus.When I didn't have one life managed to be pleasant&rewarding enough. I have means to be one whenever I see the need.So far haven't seen the need. I don't get why some see it as 'nuts' not to have a car or think life is somehow lacking without one. Sure they're plenty of advantages to having one but life without a car is hardly the end .
Now if anyone ever posts a thread titled "Would you prefer to have a car in SE during dog days of summer&the Tundra cold of winter?" I've got plenty to say on that.

**casscorridor** · June-01-11, 01:25 PM

The problem with living in Detroit is simple:

lack of dense neighborhoods

lack of rail transportation AND lack of reliable and frequent bus service

lack of amenities within neighborhoods, such as grocery stores, parks and restaurants within walking distance

Other cities offer these things. Sure, the suburbs don't have these things, but we need not compare ourselves to suburbs, which is part of the reasons these problems came about. We have to compare Detroit to other major metropolitan cities. Chicago has some of the most sprawling suburbs anywhere, but still has a large transit system and dense neighborhoods with everything you need within the central city.

If we think of the city as the same of suburbs, the "city" will slowly die. Because suburbs have good schools and low crime rates, and are within a close drive to shopping. The city has schools rapidly closing down and high crime and entire neighborhoods burnt out, and you have DRIVE to the suburbs to get things. I thought you were suppose to drive from the suburbs to the city, not the other way around.

Detroit needs to offer walkable urban lifestyles, within vibrant and dense neighborhoods connected to mass transit to survive. Because then it offers a completely different lifestyle than what is possible in the suburbs. What gives us any reasons to think the flight won't stop otherwise?

**laphoque** · June-01-11, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Apropos to this, I am reminded of the young man's plaintive remark on this Board that here girls think you are a loser if all you have is a bike to get around on. Need to keep that in mind.

I know a lot of girls who think bikes are really sexy. Maybe we hang out with different people.

It's definitely doable, especially if you have downtown as your base because the whole transit system revolves around it. You could theoretically get to Flint for less than the cost of a gallon of gas from downtown if you go to Great Lakes Crossing using SMART and transfer to MTA.

On the other hand most of the burb buses only come one to two times an hour. DDOT can be better but this city council keeps proposing to cut it. Our transit system is disintegrating. But perhaps if revenue doesn't decline as badly as it has been this year that can start to be reversed as we streamline the system and introduce light rail [[please don't fuck it up this time Detroit business barons)

**jtf1972** · June-10-11, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Apropos to this, I am reminded of the young man's plaintive remark on this Board that here girls think you are a loser if all you have is a bike to get around on. Need to keep that in mind.

Any woman who would look upon someone who is doing his own thing as a "loser" isn't worth spending time with in the first place.

I am looking to move back to Detroit very soon. The only reason I am looking to buy a car is that in order to find a job I believe a prospective employer would likely hold prejudice against a possible employee who is without an automobile.

**trotwood** · June-11-11, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

Any woman who would look upon someone who is doing his own thing as a "loser" isn't worth spending time with in the first place.

I am looking to move back to Detroit very soon. The only reason I am looking to buy a car is that in order to find a job I believe a prospective employer would likely hold prejudice against a possible employee who is without an automobile.

I agree with you!IMO she[[or he)wouldn't be worth the time of day imo.
As for needing a car for work well I agree with you there too. It's one thing to be without a car[[by choice or by circumstance)here for things non work related. For getting to and from work a car is an absolute neccessity!

**Zacha341** · June-12-11, 08:09 AM

Yes, with some of the few jobs located in somewhat inconvenient [[non-bus routes) it's just a necessity I don't even think twice about any more. I just drive decent used cars, without car notes. Car insurance is a problem but you deal with it. It's less when you buy used low-profile cars. If you do your research you can find cheaper less "expensive" non-brand name car insurance companies.

I prefer to bike/ cycle at the gym or on bike trails for exercise and relaxation and not for daily transportation due to the danger [[insane drivers) and timeliness factor.

Originally Posted by trotwood

I agree with you!IMO she[[or he)wouldn't be worth the time of day imo.
As for needing a car for work well I agree with you there too. It's one thing to be without a car[[by choice or by circumstance)here for things non work related. For getting to and from work a car is an absolute neccessity!

**trotwood** · June-12-11, 11:21 AM

^^^Understood&agreed! When I was younger I took a job that required me to take a Smart[[then Semta ) that would go only so far. I'd then have to walk a couple miles the rest of the way. I couldn't afford a car then.As soon as fianaces cleared a bit I bought a dependable used car. I didn't want the note then and don't want the note now. I'm not a Rockerfeller&not yet on skid row lol but to this day don't want to get tied down with a car note. I prefer buying a later model dependable car that will ride me in comfort without a monthly note. I figure the money that'd be spent on a note can go to the repair costs that are sure to pop up. The thing that always bothered me about owning a car in Detroit was the high insurance rates. Even no-fault seem too high imo.I once knew a mechaninc that lived in Macomb Co. His wife was telling my dad that dad,his wife,and I should leave the city&move there. My dad loved Detroit&told her he'd never leave. He complained about the auto insurance&the woman told him the price of insurance for her husband's van&her car combined. The rate was unbelievably low!That was over 15 years ago&the price for insurance in Detroit is still ridiculous imo.
As for the bike,I'm just getting back into cycling now. I got into it mostly for the exercise but I'm enjoying it so much I may start to do a bit more errand running on the cycle.Maybe I'll start going to the market to pick up a bag or two of groceries&might take advantage of the buses with bike racks so I can ride to the doc/dentist appts too.

**Zacha341** · June-12-11, 07:59 AM

A car is a clear advantage if you are thinking of relocating here! You may have to work in the suburbs and even with the Smart bus system many business and institutions in the suburbs are not right on or near these bus lines.

Also, if you live in the city near a DOT bus line they've been cut so an urban-to-suburban work commute can easily add two to three hours average into you work day just commuting. Add even more time for the long winters we have.

I've worked in the suburbs for many years and still do part-time and have had to do the ''bus thing" when my car is down for repairs. Not a good time. And while possibly illegal [[?) I've had temporary agencies ask me if I had a car. I was able to say yes.

They prefer employees that drive as they know the bus situation is poor here.

Originally Posted by jtf1972

I am looking to move back to Detroit very soon. The only reason I am looking to buy a car is that in order to find a job I believe a prospective employer would likely hold prejudice against a possible employee who is without an automobile.

**Autoracks** · June-01-11, 02:04 PM

Crazy no, impractical yes. If eastern market was full on a few days a week, there was light rail or some other convenient public transportation connecting midtown, downtown, and the market plus I lived and worked downtown or within that transportation web I wouldnt mind not driving. My own experience in midtown includes a stolen car and a busted out window. I would probably feel pretty stuck tho

**Danny** · June-01-11, 02:19 PM

That is why Detroit is called THE MOTOR CITY! We get around by cars. Detroit is not just a walkable city that is filled with bicycles, communter rail lines and public transit busses, getting into your "CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANGS" will make your travel worries go away, Or isn't it.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Wait until the gas prices goes up, up, up to $5.00 a gallon, then you don't need to car to travel 10 miles crosstown.

Neda, I miss you so.

**Cooper** · June-01-11, 03:26 PM

Looks like there have been a few threads about car-free incentives and such, but I want to pose the question: Is it at all possible, really, to live without a car Detroit?

Depending on where your job is, yes, there are a handful of neighborhoods where you can live just fine without reliable access to a car. If, say, you work downtown, you could easily live in Midtown, Corktown, or Hubbard Farms without a car. Just choose an apartment/house within a quarter mile of a decent grocery store, and then ride your bike or take the bus to work.

I did something like that earlier this year. I live in Midtown and commuted to work [[just west of Highland Park) using the Woodward and Schoolcraft buses. For groceries, I rode my bike to Food Pride or walked to Kim's Produce. I did most of my socializing at nearby bars and restaurants, and I took a long SMART bus ride out to the suburbs once to do some overdue shopping [[i.e. towels at Target).

Where not having a car will hurt you is 1) access to shopping and 2) your social life. Detroit has limited retail options, and almost everyone does at least some of their shopping in the suburbs. Taking the bus out to a major shopping center will take at least an hour one way. As a young person, I'm more bothered by how hard it is to get out at night without a car. The limited daytime bus service becomes skeletal after dark. So if your friends are meeting up at Cadieux Cafe or any other bar outside of a .5 mile radius of your place, you're probably going to need a ride, especially in winter.

The point is, no, it's not crazy, and yes, it can be done. It's also getting easier to do [[at least in the greater downtown area) as more businesses open up and the light rail line is built [[knock on wood). But it sure helps to live with someone with a car and have friends or family who can help in a pinch.

**laphoque** · June-01-11, 03:08 PM

Also getting to Ann Arbor is a pain... you have to bike through Canton after taking the Michigan Ave bus to the end.

**milesdriven** · June-01-11, 03:16 PM

I have not met one person in my lifetime who lived in Detroit and was carless voluntarily, although I have met many people who are "between cars".

**erikd** · June-02-11, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by milesdriven

I have not met one person in my lifetime who lived in Detroit and was carless voluntarily, although I have met many people who are "between cars".

I voluntarily lived car-free in Detroit for over five years. It is definitely do-able, but there are some drawbacks. I live and work downtown, so commuting was a pleasure. There are plenty of bars, restaurants, and entertainment venues in the city center, so there was no problem there.

Contrary to popular belief, there are many nice grocery stores in Detroit, especially in the greater downtown area. However, grocery shopping can be a pain when you have to walk four blocks and/or get on the bus with a bunch of bags filled with groceries, especially on cold snowy days. Once again, it is do-able, but not as nice or convenient as taking a car from door to door.

The biggest drawbacks that I found were the same ones expressed by Cooper: 1) access to shopping and 2) your social life.

Detroit has more retail than most people realize, but it doesn't compare to the plethora of retail options found in suburban shopping malls and big-box stores.

In my experience, the lack of retail was rarely a burden. Everything you need for daily life can easily be found in the city, and most of the rest of the stuff you need can be purchased online or can wait until you plan a shopping trip out to a suburban mall or big box store.

**Bham1982** · June-02-11, 07:46 AM

My sense is, with the exception of NYC, most adult folks in the U.S. benefit from a car if they have the means.

The exception may be for some folks still in school and just starting out.

I think I could survive without a car if single and not particularly sociable, but I have no idea how it would work with a family.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-02-11, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

My sense is, with the exception of NYC, most adult folks in the U.S. benefit from a car if they have the means.

I know a *lot* of folks who have lived in DC, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minneapolis, and San Francisco without ever owning a car, nor a desire to own a car.

The exception may be for some folks still in school and just starting out.

And it's this "exception" that Detroit sorely needs to keep from leaving for the aforementioned places.

**fryar** · June-02-11, 10:56 AM

Most people benefit from having a car, but most people in "real cities" just rent or car share a couple of times a month, if at all. There is no comment here on NYC, but rather a comment on Detroit.

To the OP, you can live in Detroit without a car, but it is not an MO of choice for yuppies, or non-contrarians, or what have you. By and large.

Coming from Zipcars's hometown, your jaw may drop at the lack of options.

If you don't really care to drive a car and will be walking to work [[like me), get a car you can afford to write off in a worst case scenario, and don't get comprehensive & collision insurance. What people refer to as no-fault insurance will be comparable in cost to a monthly bus pass, or cheaper, depending on your city of reference.

Also, get "The Club." :-)

**Bham1982** · June-02-11, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I know a *lot* of folks who have lived in DC, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minneapolis, and San Francisco without ever owning a car, nor a desire to own a car.

This is true, and I know many of those folks too, but the Census shows that NYC is the only city where a majority of households don't own cars.

In places like SF, Chicago, and DC, transit is pretty good, but the vast majority of households own vehicles.

I think, again excepting NYC, you'll find that most of your friends in these cities without cars tend to be young and/or single. You won't find many middle class "traditional families" riding the bus around town, but you will see 23-year-old singles and poor folks.