Aesthetically, When Was Detroit At Its Worst? [[Now vs. Late 1980s/Early 1990s)

[DetroitPole]

Oh, much worse now. Been on this block for 32 years. 14 abandoned houses now....some boarded up - some not - if the house was abandoned - it's stripped. The corner house has been burned out for 15 years and it's still there....people use it to dump their trash...loaded with unwanted furniture, tires and bags of trash. Neighbors don't stay long. Empty school on the corner. Used to be a grocery store two blocks away - closed. Used to be able to walk to the meat market, bakery, etc.....they're all gone - got held up one too many times. People started moving out when their kids reached high school age - wanted to get them into a good high school without having to pay tuition. Neighbors don't stay long - you never see them move in and you never see them move out. The buildings on Michigan Avenue that have been vacant for more than 25 years are still there...crumbled. Warren Avenue - all I can say is there must have been a tornado. sad, so sad. It's like a cancer....

So we're pretty much all in agreement that things are worse now than ever before. At least, until tomorrow. And then the next day. And then the next day. And so on.

But here is the big issue: burned out home on the corner for 14 years?! Here's my question, where the HELL are you on this one, Mayor BING? Wasn't he trumpeting tearing down a bunch of abandoned houses, oh, 2 years ago? And his numbers are no where near what they were supposed to be?

14 years. Only in Detroit. It's the city services [[lack thereof), STUPID.

Even 5 years ago Detroit seemed like a vastly different place.

With all the press about downtown and midtown, which frankly are nothing to write to mother about, the neighborhoods, which have all declined, or as English has said, disappeared, are still ignored, especially by all the downtown boosters. I will always maintain that this city is larger than its 2 square mile green zone and that focusing only on greater downtown has, in part, gotten us where we are today without even really producing desirable areas there.

Oh, and all of Grosse Pointe that I know of is still incredibly well-maintained. Short of a plague or nuclear attack, things are okay there.

[Detroit_uke]

Detroit Pole - that burned out house has been on my block for 14 years....I don't have numbers - but I think it's safe to say that there is at least one burn out on each block here in my little section of Warrendale. These homes are toxic!!!! I have been in Detroit since 1954....It once was beautiful. This block was beautiful when I moved in 1979. Not one rental on the street. Kids everywhere. Stores within walking distance...and the bus came every 7 minutes!

[Danny]

According to Mass-Com theorists. Urban cities with tight budgets may not have the money that state and federal governments give them to clean up blighted ghettoes. Detroit is the prime example. South Bronx NYC suffered the same fate until Trump, Bloomberg and their goon squads chip in their investments monies to gentrify most of South Bronx until state and federal governments came with the money to new housing. If the People of Detroit can simply chip in their hard earned monies to hire private companies to tear down abandon ghettoes, then Detroit don't have to suffer its fate along with South Bronx.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Neda, I miss you so.

[Bham1982]

Danny, I was recently in the South Bronx, and they have some pretty impressive highrise and midrise residential buildings going up. Even a curvy glass Miami-like tower.

That area may have been terrible 20-30 years ago, but it appears to be doing pretty well nowadays, at least in terms of residential demand.

[Danny]

Developing Detroit will be a long and slow process.

Here's what I'm looking forward:

1. Downtown Detroit, Midtown, SW Detroit [[Hispanic Community), Conant Gardens [[ East Indian Community), New Center Area, Crary/St. Marys, University Homes, Martin Park, Bagley, Avenue of Fashion, Brush Park, Balduck Park, East English Village, East Village, Herman Gardens Estates, Woodbridge, Woodbridge Estates, Morningside, Lashley Cox, Old Reford, Lafayette Projects, Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest and Indian Village, are all well developed Detroit Neighborhoods. They attract middle income residents all around. Those will be the potential hot spots for urban redevelopment.

2. Give it about 20 to 40 years those hot spots will be middle income attracted so fast that it would spead to once black and blighted ghettohoods. Then real estate developers would like the communities so much that home homes and supercondoes will pop up like trees. It doesn't matter how city services, police, fire to public schools look either good or bad. If middle income folks love the core of the developed Detroit sub-divisions then more businesses, investors would come and help out.

3. Take Dan Gilbert from Quicken Loans. He just did somthing than Mike Illitch should have done in the first place, Invest and develop and move middle income families to Downtown Detroit and its ghettohoods. Because he sees Detroit as a rennaisance city of the 21st Century, not a ghetto!

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Neda, I miss you so.

[1KielsonDrive]

Hudson's used to be a brooding hulk sitting there as a huge constant reminder of failure.

And the City-County Building is still a brooding hulk sitting there as a huge constant reminder of failure.

[Buy American]

In your neighborhood, particularly since the residency requirement got dropped, it's been declining quickly. I've noticed it's been on the express elevator to hell, especially the last 4-5 years. Not knocking ya, but just my weekly observations when I'm there. It wasn't too bad in the early 90s when I lived there, but boy what a difference a few changes like the residency requirement make.

What does that have to do with anything? I would venture to guess that when residency was dropped and all City employees could move to where they wanted to live, someone else purchased their homes and for the most part, the homes were in prestine condition. What happened to those homes after they were purchased is the responsibility of the new homeowner; they would be the ones to question why those beautiful homes began to look like trash, inside and out!

[SWMAP]

"What happened to those homes after they were purchased is the responsibility of the new homeowner; they would be the ones to question why those beautiful homes began to look like trash, inside and out! "
Excellent! Weird to somehow tie the decimation of a neighborhood to the fact that no cops live there. I don't know of a single cop that ever lived in any proximity to me in SW Detroit for 30 years. but still, the streets were way better five years ago than they are now. So lack of resicency can't be at fault.

[Gistok]

Well anyone who has lived in any of the former Copper Canyons around the border regions of the city knows exactly what Jackie is talking about. The former middle class city employees moved out... the cops and fire department folks especially. The folks moving in weren't as well to do and the former Copper Canyons areas are now going to hell....

At least when you had police officers as neighbors, you felt more secure... now with 911 response times of hours versus minutes.... people living in the Copper Canyons have hightailed it out of there...

Buy American... your simplistic reply to what Jackie described just about covers 100% of the middle class neighborhoods in Detroit... they have and continue to go to hell... when the new owners/renters take over their property... talk about stating the obvious??

At least when the Copper Canyons were in existence... there was some hope of stability in those neighborhoods... that hope is now gone... and the downward spiral she mentioned has accelerated. I see it happening in the formerly Copper Canyon neighborhood between Balduck Park and East English Village... on the far east side.

And SWMAP... the Southwest side has Hispanic immigration [[just like East Dearborn has Arab immigration) to keep the neighborhoods alive.

[SWMAP]

There are 1000 fewer police positions now then six years ago. How many police employees are there - 2500? So because 3500 DPD officers either lost their jobs or retired or moved becaus they could, neighborhoods are decimated, and blame lack of residency?

What about the people who moved into those homes? Aren't they the ones responsible for the current blight and decimation? I can never understand why people blame the people who are gone and moved on, but who sold their homes to new neighbors who seemed to be as responsible as anyone - or isn't that what we must believe?. Who's fault is it that the new neighbors weren't financially able to take care of their inherited neighborhoods, weren't culturally capable of understanding care of a house, or had no intention of keeping up the neighborhood?

Residency is the non-sequitor here. the issue bothers you, but even if the cops had never left, they are only several hundred homes on each side of town. What about the hundreds of thousands of homes now being destroyed by the factors I listed above. The cops were only a finger in the dyke.

[iheartthed]

There are 1000 fewer police positions now then six years ago. How many police employees are there - 2500? So because 3500 DPD officers either lost their jobs or retired or moved becaus they could, neighborhoods are decimated, and blame lack of residency?

What about the people who moved into those homes? Aren't they the ones responsible for the current blight and decimation? I can never understand why people blame the people who are gone and moved on, but who sold their homes to new neighbors who seemed to be as responsible as anyone - or isn't that what we must believe?. Who's fault is it that the new neighbors weren't financially able to take care of their inherited neighborhoods, weren't culturally capable of understanding care of a house, or had no intention of keeping up the neighborhood?

Residency is the non-sequitor here. the issue bothers you, but even if the cops had never left, they are only several hundred homes on each side of town. What about the hundreds of thousands of homes now being destroyed by the factors I listed above. The cops were only a finger in the dyke.

But isn't abandoned houses a big part of the problem? So in that light, you do have to place some of the blame on people who are gone or moved on -- or at least the underlying policy/social/economic factors that encourage the abandonment without attracting equivalent residents to replace them. Let's be clear, Detroit's problem isn't that it is a city full of people who just aren't taking care of their houses. It's problem is that it's a more than half abandoned city, where a significant number of the people left probably don't take proper care of their homes. I think that last part -- the significant number of people left who don't take care of their homes -- is more of an effect of some broader issues going on which we've already debated endlessly on this forum.

[Bham1982]

And SWMAP... the Southwest side has Hispanic immigration [[just like East Dearborn has Arab immigration) to keep the neighborhoods alive.

It's true that SW Detroit gets the Mexican immigrants, but those blocks are trending downward [[IMO) too. I have friends who live off Springwells, and their street is going down the drain.

They've had two firebombed homes in recent months and packs of crazy dogs make it dangerous to walk to the corner store.

They have closed survelliance cameras covering front and back, with monitors in multiple rooms. They also have a vicious rottweiler guarding the back entrance, and their car is parked in the [[heavily fenced) concrete "back yard". Who wants to live like that?

They're looking to get out, and move to Lincoln Park or somewhere Downriver. Lots of Mexicans in SW are thinking of Downriver.

The one big advantage of SW is the retail. The commercial strips along Vernor are pretty healthy and vibrant. Thank the Lord for immigration, legal or otherwise.

[SWMAP]

While I do agree that abandoned properties are a BIG part of the neighborhood problems [[others being a hands-off approach by the city to blight problems, lack of a plan about ordinance enforcement, etc.) I don't believe that the police officers who left the copper canyons on the east and west side just up and left/abandoned their former homes. They sold them. The new neighbors are the ones at fault for all the blight and instabilty.

And of course, the problems in SW cannot in any realistic way be blamed on recinding of residency.

[Gistok]

Bham1928... gotta agree on the immigration issue... Thank the Lord...

It also helps keep east Dearborn vibrant... with the immigration from Middle-East countries. Ya gotta love the car washes [[with a touch of home) with the LED lit fake palm trees along the perimeter....

[SWMAP]

Also on Mexicans leaving SW Detroit: the man who does my lawn tells me that he will abandon his house in the Springwells neighborhood, largely because he bought it in the $70,000 range just a few years ago and now it's worth only about $20,000. He has a mortgage and with taxes, he doesn't see the value in staying. It would be years and years before he has any equity so he's really just paying rent. He says he'd rather pay rent in a safer community.

[Buy American]

Well anyone who has lived in any of the former Copper Canyons around the border regions of the city knows exactly what Jackie is talking about. The former middle class city employees moved out... the cops and fire department folks especially. The folks moving in weren't as well to do and the former Copper Canyons areas are now going to hell....

At least when you had police officers as neighbors, you felt more secure... now with 911 response times of hours versus minutes.... people living in the Copper Canyons have hightailed it out of there...

Buy American... your simplistic reply to what Jackie described just about covers 100% of the middle class neighborhoods in Detroit... they have and continue to go to hell... when the new owners/renters take over their property... talk about stating the obvious??

At least when the Copper Canyons were in existence... there was some hope of stability in those neighborhoods... that hope is now gone... and the downward spiral she mentioned has accelerated. I see it happening in the formerly Copper Canyon neighborhood between Balduck Park and East English Village... on the far east side.

And SWMAP... the Southwest side has Hispanic immigration [[just like East Dearborn has Arab immigration) to keep the neighborhoods alive.

Whether or not a person is "well to do" has nothing to do with keeping property clean and maintained. I never understood exactly what that meant because all it takes is some common sense and a bit of elbow grease to keep your property clean and trash free. When we bought our home in "Copper Canyon", we were as poor as church mice but we took care of our home and kept the outside as clean and tidy as we did on the inside. The people who bought our house after we had lived there for 30 years both had good jobs, made much more money than we did and yet in a year our house was practically unrecognizable...why is that? Why were the windows busted out? Why was there a car parked on the grass when a driveway is available? Why is garbage on the front porch?
How did the garage catch fire? What's with the trash all over the street and on the lawn?

Having cops living in close proximity to me didn't help me when my home was robbed. It didn't help me when my children were being intimidated by newcomers in the neighborhood who didn't have the same ideas of what a good neighbor was. As a matter of fact, most cops didn't want to get involved with any neighborhood disputes or problems because they didn't want people to know who they were and what their profession was, and who their children were.

I agree that when the Copper Canyons were in existence the neighborhoods were much better 20 years ago, but that isn't because the Canyons consisted solely of policemen or firefighters living there. The people who lived there and in other areas of Detroit actually cared about each other, cared about their neighbors, cared about how their homes were kept.

The decline began when dope dealers, hookers, drug addicts, corrupt politicians, thug KK, corrupt DPS, no services, high taxes for nothing, and a hell of a lot more took the City over and scared everyone away.

[Buy American]

But isn't abandoned houses a big part of the problem? So in that light, you do have to place some of the blame on people who are gone or moved on -- or at least the underlying policy/social/economic factors that encourage the abandonment without attracting equivalent residents to replace them. Let's be clear, Detroit's problem isn't that it is a city full of people who just aren't taking care of their houses. It's problem is that it's a more than half abandoned city, where a significant number of the people left probably don't take proper care of their homes. I think that last part -- the significant number of people left who don't take care of their homes -- is more of an effect of some broader issues going on which we've already debated endlessly on this forum.

I can tell you this....I can say with certainty that 99.9% of the people who left the City of Detroit because residency was lifted, didn't walk away from their homes. They sold them to other families, sold them to real estate brokers, or rented them. As for me, there was no way I could just walk away from my home [[that was paid for after 30 years). I couldn't afford to do that so I waited until someone could purchase it, then left.

[Autoracks]

when i was a kid in the 80s there were streets on the eastside that were entirely impassable, burned out cars, junk, tires... Im sure i'm not the only one to remember. Some parts of town may look just as bad or worse than ever before but thats just opinon. There are blocks all over town with 20-30 abandoned houses, all open to the elements and entirely un-rehab-able

[softailrider]

when i was a kid in the 80s there were streets on the eastside that were entirely impassable, burned out cars, junk, tires... Im sure i'm not the only one to remember. Some parts of town may look just as bad or worse than ever before but thats just opinon. There are blocks all over town with 20-30 abandoned houses, all open to the elements and entirely un-rehab-able

I stated previously that I've been working in the city for 32 years, I've spent way too much time in the East side. I do not ever remember any impassable streets as you have described anywhere in the city. If you could be more specific perhaps it could jog my memory.

[jackie5275]

When I was talking about the residency requirement, I wasn't specifically talking about Copper Canyon areas, although that does apply. However, I was moreso talking about Warrendale. There were a fair amount of city employees living around there, members of my church. When that residency requirement got lifted a huge number got out within 2-3 years of being able to leave. I saw what a difference it made in Warrendale. Many houses became rental properties that got trashed by tenants or sold to brokers who basically abandoned the houses & left them for urban miners or bored youths looking for something to trash. For example, in the past 6 yrs, I've driven down Westwood between Warren & Tireman every week. Six yrs ago, most of the houses on these 2 blocks were occupied & maintained. Slowly, one or 2 at a time, became abandoned & trashed or bulldozed completely. There's a house across the street from SS Peter & Paul church that's got it's bars all around it, but totally gutted by a fire. This type of a scene is becoming more & more common in that area.

[jackie5275]

They're looking to get out, and move to Lincoln Park or somewhere Downriver. Lots of Mexicans in SW are thinking of Downriver.

Yeah, well, they can have just as much fun in Lincoln Park, which isn't much different from Detroit. My husband & I lived there when we first married. He left eastside Detroit for Lincoln Park. After 8yrs there, he saw our neighborhood start to deteriorate the same way he saw his eastside neighborhood deteriorate. That got him starting to think we should move out. However, it was the dead body found 4 blocks away from our house that made up his mind. They need to go farther down Fort St. to see any improvement.

[iheartthed]

I can tell you this....I can say with certainty that 99.9% of the people who left the City of Detroit because residency was lifted, didn't walk away from their homes. They sold them to other families, sold them to real estate brokers, or rented them. As for me, there was no way I could just walk away from my home [[that was paid for after 30 years). I couldn't afford to do that so I waited until someone could purchase it, then left.

I am 99.9% sure that there has been a city employee who walked away from his/her home in the city since the residency rule was lifted.

[illwill]

I hope the city is just about bottomed out, however I think it's worse off. I personally like the old Detroit because when I think of a big city I think of lots of tall, dense historic buildings and a dense population. Downtown Detroit, asthetically is at the worst it's ever looked. I'm so sad to see what it has become. I always thought that in order for Downtown to make a real comeback it would need so many of the buildings that have been torn down or burned down. Especially the areas where the Lafayette building used to stand. I feel like the heart has been ripped out of Detroit. I can't believe the way it looks. To see the 2 hot dog stands left in the middle of a desert is mind boggling. The city has done a disservice by tearing down it's grandest skyscrapers. Especially in this day and age.

I remember in the 70's & 80's when Detroit was densely populated and street life was exciting. Now when I look around [[especially woodward), nothing is there. I'm aware that life in the city was worse off during the crack era and when the city was more populated so i guess it's a give and take. But I wish we could have fought through it like othe cities have. Detroit's biggest advantage now is awareness. People are aware that it's going to take a lot of elbow grease to make the city great again.

But I personally think Detroit is much worse off. I'm saddend by this.

[Buy American]

I am 99.9% sure that there has been a city employee who walked away from his/her home in the city since the residency rule was lifted.

Without a doubt, but the percentage is very low. The lifting of the residency requirement is/was not the cause of Detroits' decline.

[iheartthed]

Without a doubt, but the percentage is very low. The lifting of the residency requirement is/was not the cause of Detroits' decline.

I agree. Of course that single thing wasn't the sole cause. But it's probably related.