Editorial: Bus service essential to all transit improvements

[stasu1213]

I still say that the bus system should pay for itself. Money made through ridership should go not into the General Fund but back into the transportation system itself whether local or regional. The only time that the bus system loses money will be due to low ridership. The taxes from it could go to the city. The water company pay for itself by it's customers. DDOT could improve greatly using this idea

[ghettopalmetto]

I still say that the bus system should pay for itself. Money made through ridership should go not into the General Fund but back into the transportation system itself whether local or regional. The only time that the bus system loses money will be due to low ridership. The taxes from it could go to the city. The water company pay for itself by it's customers. DDOT could improve greatly using this idea

On what premise do you base this? No form of transportation in the world pays for itself. Let that sink in for a moment. None. Anywhere. On earth.

If transportation systems were capable of self-sufficiency, there would be no need for any sort of government intervention. No MDOT. No Wayne County Airports Authority. No Wayne County Road Commission. No Federal Aviation Administration. No Amtrak, SNCF, or Deutsche Bahn. But government gets into this business because transportation in and of itself is inherently unprofitable. By assuming this burden, government frees consumers to use the infrastructure to achieve their own profitability.

Why should buses in Detroit be the sole exception to this rule?

[stasu1213]

On what premise do you base this? No form of transportation in the world pays for itself. Let that sink in for a moment. None. Anywhere. On earth.

If transportation systems were capable of self-sufficiency, there would be no need for any sort of government intervention. No MDOT. No Wayne County Airports Authority. No Wayne County Road Commission. No Federal Aviation Administration. No Amtrak, SNCF, or Deutsche Bahn. But government gets into this business because transportation in and of itself is inherently unprofitable. By assuming this burden, government frees consumers to use the infrastructure to achieve their own profitability.

Why should buses in Detroit be the sole exception to this rule?

Then have a privitazed bus system and see the profits increase for the owners. Detroit had for years paid little attention to it's transportation system. You had said that goverment frees consumers to use the infrastructur to achieve their own PROFITABILITY.Is money being generated though DDOT? Leave DDOT and Smart operating the way they do and have a private bus company that is regional and see how much money that company makes without government intervention which had done little to improve DDOT for more than 40 years

[ghettopalmetto]

Then have a privitazed bus system and see the profits increase for the owners. Detroit had for years paid little attention to it's transportation system. You had said that goverment frees consumers to use the infrastructur to achieve their own PROFITABILITY.Is money being generated though DDOT? Leave DDOT and Smart operating the way they do and have a private bus company that is regional and see how much money that company makes without government intervention which had done little to improve DDOT for more than 40 years

I don't think you understand a single damned thing I wrote, so let me rephrase it:

IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. FOR. A. PRIVATE. COMPANY. TO. OPERATE. ANY. SORT. OF. TRANSPORTATION. SYSTEM. WITHOUT. PUBLIC. SUBSIDY.

If there were money to be made, companies would be lining up to do so. But they are not. Alas, we have to have government build our roads and rails and airports and sidewalks and ports. Because there isn't a single damned dime to be made by anyone. That's not a Detroit phenomenon, that's economics.

[stasu1213]

I don't think you understand a single damned thing I wrote, so let me rephrase it:

IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. FOR. A. PRIVATE. COMPANY. TO. OPERATE. ANY. SORT. OF. TRANSPORTATION. SYSTEM. WITHOUT. PUBLIC. SUBSIDY.

If there were money to be made, companies would be lining up to do so. But they are not. Alas, we have to have government build our roads and rails and airports and sidewalks and ports. Because there isn't a single damned dime to be made by anyone. That's not a Detroit phenomenon, that's economics.

The light rail that Penske, Karmanos, and the rest were going to build up Woodward from Hart Plaza to New Center area would had been privately owned or government owned

[ghettopalmetto]

The light rail that Penske, Karmanos, and the rest were going to build up Woodward from Hart Plaza to New Center area would had been privately owned or government owned

Yeah? You sure about that? Were they going to pay for operating costs too? What are the projected profits? Why did they have to leverage federal money if the light rail line is going to be profitable on its own? Why does every article I read on that matter cite the need to identify a "permanent funding source"?

Hmmmm. Wonder why that could be.

News flash: EVERYTHING is "privately owned or government owned". You're being intentionally disingenuous in order to skirt an argument that you can't prove.

Throw the ideology in the garbage can and start thinking about things that can work in the real world.

[stasu1213]

Yeah? You sure about that? Were they going to pay for operating costs too? What are the projected profits? Why did they have to leverage federal money if the light rail line is going to be profitable on its own? Why does every article I read on that matter cite the need to identify a "permanent funding source"?

Hmmmm. Wonder why that could be.

News flash: EVERYTHING is "privately owned or government owned". You're being intentionally disingenuous in order to skirt an argument that you can't prove.

Throw the ideology in the garbage can and start thinking about things that can work in the real world.

I would rather see the money DDOT recieves through ridership go back into the bus system itself that it all. Not into the general fund but into the system to help pay for repairs, upkeep of or new busses, and the reopening of closed routes.

[Fnemecek]

Then have a privitazed bus system and see the profits increase for the owners. Detroit had for years paid little attention to it's transportation system. You had said that goverment frees consumers to use the infrastructur to achieve their own PROFITABILITY.Is money being generated though DDOT? Leave DDOT and Smart operating the way they do and have a private bus company that is regional and see how much money that company makes without government intervention which had done little to improve DDOT for more than 40 years

You really think that it's possible to run a private mass transit system that makes a profit?

Okay - I could cite example after example, study after study to prove that you don't what you're talking about. However, let's make this interesting.

Go ahead and launch a private, for-profit mass transit system - in Detroit or anywhere else in the nation.

I'll match your profits tenfold. For every $1 you earn in profits, I'll give you another $10.

[Hermod]

On what premise do you base this? No form of transportation in the world pays for itself. Let that sink in for a moment. None. Anywhere. On earth.
**************
But government gets into this business because transportation in and of itself is inherently unprofitable.

PASSENGER transport doesn't pay for itself.

Freight transport can be and is quite profitable.

Landing fees from air freight subsidize a lot of passengers costs at airports.

FEDEX and UPS are both profitable companies.

Railroads have survived without subsidies since the 19th century despite gummint parasitism.

Yes, waterway way transport benefits from gummint dredging of waterways [[which the ACOE has been doing for most of our nation's history.

Passenger transport used to be profitable [[barely so) until about 1920.

[Detroitnerd]

PASSENGER transport doesn't pay for itself.

Freight transport can be and is quite profitable.

Landing fees from air freight subsidize a lot of passengers costs at airports.

FEDEX and UPS are both profitable companies.

Railroads have survived without subsidies since the 19th century despite gummint parasitism.

Yes, waterway way transport benefits from gummint dredging of waterways [[which the ACOE has been doing for most of our nation's history.

Passenger transport used to be profitable [[barely so) until about 1920.

Nah. There are or have been plenty of subsidies for those carriers [[railroads are still some of the largest landholders, thanks to the generous 19th century U.S. government) and many of their costs are externalized and passed on to the rest of us.

[stasu1213]

On what premise do you base this? No form of transportation in the world pays for itself. Let that sink in for a moment. None. Anywhere. On earth.

If transportation systems were capable of self-sufficiency, there would be no need for any sort of government intervention. No MDOT. No Wayne County Airports Authority. No Wayne County Road Commission. No Federal Aviation Administration. No Amtrak, SNCF, or Deutsche Bahn. But government gets into this business because transportation in and of itself is inherently unprofitable. By assuming this burden, government frees consumers to use the infrastructure to achieve their own profitability.

Why should buses in Detroit be the sole exception to this rule?

Do you really think that the consumer would lose out if the bus system was privatized?

[ghettopalmetto]

Do you really think that the consumer would lose out if the bus system was privatized?

Yes, I do think consumers would lose out in a privatized transit system, for the simple reason that the motive changes from "moving people" to "profit". What is most profitable for the transit operator isn't necessarily what is most profitable for the Greater Good.

And of course, in order to allow for any kind of profit on top of existing operating expenses, fares and government subsidies would necessarily have to go through the roof. Profit is nothing more than an additional, unnecessary expense when discussing public services. SMART and DDOT exist on a shoestring budget as it is--who covers this additional cost once profit is added to the metrics???

[professorscott]

It is possible to privatize all or part of bus service but the resulting private company would have to be paid [[out of public funds) to operate the service. This is already being done, all over the place. Many school districts have contracted out school bus service to First Student or others. DDOT has contracted out its paratransit service to private operators for many years.

Generally the profit in a private contract transit arrangement comes from imposing operational efficiencies of various types: better purchasing arrangements with parts suppliers, changes in contracts with various classes of employees, etc. So it's not inconceivable. I don't see it happening any time soon though.

[ghettopalmetto]

It is possible to privatize all or part of bus service but the resulting private company would have to be paid [[out of public funds) to operate the service. This is already being done, all over the place. Many school districts have contracted out school bus service to First Student or others. DDOT has contracted out its paratransit service to private operators for many years.

Generally the profit in a private contract transit arrangement comes from imposing operational efficiencies of various types: better purchasing arrangements with parts suppliers, changes in contracts with various classes of employees, etc. So it's not inconceivable. I don't see it happening any time soon though.

How many private companies are honestly qualified to transport 140,000 Detroiiters a day?

[Hermod]

How many private companies are honestly qualified to transport 140,000 Detroiiters a day?

I am not sure of the exact numbers, but the Fairfax Connector bus service in Fairfax County, VA is contractor operated and seems to work well.

Google "Her..." and "Veolia" for large public transport system contract operators.


Edit: for some reason, it keeps editing out the last three letters of H-E-R-Z-O-G